[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

"Prolonging the torture" is one way to look at it. But also "sitting with the feelings" and "working it through". "Processing" in fact.

That was basically my thought about it, thanks. But maybe T is seeing it as TMC is...? I mostly realized the previous session, when I kept crying everytime I brought up ex-MC, that I'm clearly not done processing stuff with him. I haven't really talked about him much in there since termination a few months ago. I often have issues with trying to push away my feelings about things, like, "OK, I'm fine now," then they come back to haunt me later on.

[ElectricManatee]

Ooh, I kind of love this vein of predicting Dr. T's reasons for not wanting to listen to the voicemail. I'm going to say that there isn't any grand therapeutic reasoning but instead that he felt uncomfortable for reasons he doesn't quite understand and thus balked to avoid getting into whatever topic the voicemail would provoke. He put his own feelings first and LT feels understandably confused and rejected. If he had reasons, wouldn't he have shared them? Honesty is his strength, after all. Hesitating until 1) she felt ashamed for even bringing it up and then 2) dropped the subject doesn't seem like a very deft clinical maneuver. I can't imagine "getting away" with immediately dropping something I had clearly wanted to talk about a minute ago once broaching the topic suddenly became uncomfortable. My T would hop on that like a dog on a dropped steak.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

Ooh, I kind of love this vein of predicting Dr. T's reasons for not wanting to listen to the voicemail. I'm going to say that there isn't any grand therapeutic reasoning but instead that he felt uncomfortable for reasons he doesn't quite understand and thus balked to avoid getting into whatever topic the voicemail would provoke. He put his own feelings first and LT feels understandably confused and rejected. If he had reasons, wouldn't he have shared them? Honesty is his strength, after all. Hesitating until 1) she felt ashamed for even bringing it up and then 2) dropped the subject doesn't seem like a very deft clinical maneuver. I can't imagine being allowed to "get away" with immediately dropping something I had clearly wanted to talk about a minute ago because broaching the topic suddenly became uncomfortable. My T would hop on that like a dog on a dropped steak.

Now I feel like I should take some bets before I ask him today! Of course, if the reason you suggested is the one, I doubt he'd tell me. Or he could just say he didn't feel comfortable with it without giving me a reason.

In some ways, I guess it was a deft clinical maneuver, at least for his benefit--it got me to not do something that may have made him uncomfortable, right? Maybe he's realized if he questions me enough about why I want to do something, I just end up backing down... Which is not beneficial to me, of course...

Though it was getting close to the end of the session by that point (maybe 15 minutes left?), so I didn't want to keep pushing it, then have him agree to it, then play it with like 5 minutes left for me to process the feelings it dug up. I like your dog/steak metaphor for your T!

[junkDNA]

Originally Posted by velcro003

My T literally clapped her hands in delight when I brought in pictures.

same lol.....

[InnerPeace111]

Originally Posted by unaluna

You seem to play two roles: 1, the helpless, crying character who cant even listen to a voicemail by herself for fear of the pain. 2, a kind of superior, conniving character who insists on an apology when her feelings are hurt. But they are both like characters in a play - who is the real person? What are your true feelings? I think that is what your t is trying to get at. Like when he asks you why you want to listen to the vm. If you have already predicted a scenario, maybe thats not therapy.

I don’t know what anyone else thinks but these words come across as harsh...superior, conniving character...

[ruh roh]

If he has indicated that mc mishandled things, and you also feel that mc mishandled things, the question to bring to therapy might be why you want your current t to mishandle things in the same way, because the things you press for and want from him are pretty much the same as with mc, only this t is resisting providing that--not because he has some personal issues with what you are asking, but because it has been shown to be harmful to you by re-enacting old painful scenarios that then become the main focus instead of the underlying issue.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by InnerPeace111

I don’t know what anyone else thinks but these words come across as harsh...superior, conniving character...

Actually all exhankster said was that it came off that way at times (implied to her -exh- - how she viewed it) and it was a role that got played out. EXH did not call op any of those things as I read it, just giving a view on how an aspect of how op presents to a therapist could be viewed as that. Presenting different sides of a character or role to the therapist. I believe we all have these sorts of aspects - humans all do.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

LT,
I understand your situation though I can't give you specific advice. Again, you sound a lot like me and my pattern. I want to analze everything about my T relationship with T, while she is always trying to steer me away from her and towards my real life relationships.

Last session I played a recording I made about her talking about addiction. I wanted her to hear me cry since I have never cried in 8 years of therapy. You and I are different in that regard. T wasn't interested in hearing me cry particularly.

A few years ago I wanted T to watch my family movies of when I was a baby and child. She did, but asked me what I wanted from that experience. It's like I want to go over and over things that make me feel more connected to her. I don't like when she switches gears and asks about my kids or grandkids in the middle of my trying to discuss my attachment to her. It's like I don't want to let it go, and I feel rejected when she wants me to "get out of that loop."

I know T is right but it's hard to "give it up." I sense that you want to go over and over your relationship with ex- MC in order to keep it alive. You may need to grieve that relationship because you are hurting because of it even though you made a wise decision to stop seeing him.

Maybe I'm wrong, and over simplifying your situation, but it strikes a chord with me so I wanted to tell you. Especially the wanting to ruminate about ex MC. I don't think that's wrong because it's not finished for you yet. I also empathize with your frustration with your T because he doesn't want to "go there." This is hard stuff! Hugs.

Thanks, Rainbow, I appreciate your understanding. I think I do need to grieve the ex-MC relationship, which is part of what I was trying to do last session. Maybe T didn't really understand that? I think processing it is part of grieving, like trying to get myself to the acceptance. Maybe T thinks it's taking too long, or just doesn't understand it, I don't know. Or he's caught up in his worry that the same thing will happen with him. But it's different...

[Echos Myron redux]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

If he has indicated that mc mishandled things, and you also feel that mc mishandled things, the question to bring to therapy might be why you want your current t to mishandle things in the same way, because the things you press for and want from him are pretty much the same as with mc, only this t is resisting providing that--not because he has some personal issues with what you are asking, but because it has been shown to be harmful to you by re-enacting old painful scenarios that then become the main focus instead of the underlying issue.

Which would be great if he were actually addressing the underlying issue. But it feels like he's filling the space with his own opinions and "brutal honesty" (which my eyes might actually roll out of my head at) at the expense of LT actually having the space to explore what needs are underlying beneath these patterns.

[ruh roh]

EM (and LT), I agree. It has not been clear to me if this therapist is skilled or trained in this kind of therapy.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by InnerPeace111

I don’t know what anyone else thinks but these words come across as harsh...superior, conniving character...

Thanks, stopdog. I meant to contrast the two - either crying, or staunchly insisting on an apology, saying what t "might be thinking and doesnt want to admit" - if the client is imagining what the t is thinking, the client is probably projecting, and the t is trying to draw that out.

This is a ploy my mother and aunt pulled on me, to pretend to be weak and dying to get their way, then laugh at me for being stupid for falling for it yet again, so yeah i might be a little sensitive about it myself, but if the shoe doesnt fit, hey dont wear it. Or rather, shoes.

[fille_folle]

I don't think Dr. T is worried that what he might hear on the VM will make him think ill of ex MC. I think he just doesn't see the therapeutic value of you listening to a VM you admit you haven't listened to in ages that will just dredge up old feelings. I think you (subconsciously) are motivated to play out this painful act to put your T in a position where he would need to comfort you. I don't think you're consciously trying to be manipulative to get your emotional needs met, but this is indeed a way to manipulate your T into giving you what you are craving from him. The reason I say this is because you haven't felt the need to listen to the VM outside of therapy for many months. Of course, I am speculating, and I could be wrong, but it's worth thinking over whether this scenario rings true.

As for grieving the ex-MC relationship, I can understand the need for that. However, I question whether listening to the VM needs to be a part of it. I'm concerned it could just set you back. It also seems to me that you sometimes speak as if your attachment issues originated with ex MC and this leads you to devote more time to him than might actually be helpful. Since the relationship with him is still fresh in your mind, I understand why it is tempting to allow it to be the focus. However, I encourage you to try your best to dig deep and spend more time on the childhood stuff - that's when the attachment stuff all started.

[ElectricManatee]

I keep thinking about Una's "teach a man to fish" thing. Which, yeah, self-sufficiency and building sustaining relationships in real-life is ideal. (If only MC could have really focused on LT's marriage and helped make that something emotionally nourishing!) But then if a starving person shows up at your door, and you're an accomplished angler with a freezer full of delicious fish sticks and a refrigerator full of fresh tartar sauce, some might consider you a bit of a d ick if you immediately grab a bamboo pole and usher your starving guest down to the stream for a lesson.

I guess I'm just saying that I don't think it's always bad to meet some of the client's needs in an appropriately limited and boundaried way. When my T started to offer genuine emotional connection, I balked hard. If I couldn't accept what she was offering, I definitely wasn't ready or able to skip off and make the type of sustaining relationships that would diminish the problems I was experiencing. In talking through this (a lot!) I discovered that some of my ideas about myself and other people were incredibly skewed. That's why I didn't think it was safe to open up. By now I have learned and grown enough to be able to connect with other people a little more and without nearly as much effort or emotional turmoil. So I don't think wanting (or even getting) emotional needs met by your T is necessarily a bad thing or a re-enactment all the time. I think the key is having a T who can walk that fine line between letting you matter to them and knowing that the ultimate goal is for you to get better and leave them behind.

[Echos Myron redux]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I keep thinking about Una's "teach a man to fish" thing. Which, yeah, self-sufficiency and building sustaining relationships in real-life is ideal. (If only MC could have really focused on LT's marriage and helped make that something emotionally nourishing!) But then if a starving person shows up at your door, and you're an accomplished angler with a freezer full of delicious fish sticks and a refrigerator full of fresh tartar sauce, some might consider you a bit of a d ick if you immediately grab a bamboo pole and usher your starving guest down to the stream for a lesson.

I guess I'm just saying that I don't think it's always bad to meet some of the client's needs in an appropriately limited and boundaried way. When my T started to offer genuine emotional connection, I balked hard. If I couldn't accept what she was offering, I definitely wasn't ready or able to skip off and make the type of sustaining relationships that would diminish the problems I was experiencing. In talking through this (a lot!) I discovered that some of my ideas about myself and other people were incredibly skewed. That's why I didn't think it was safe to open up. By now I have learned and grown enough to be able to connect with other people a little more and without nearly as much effort or emotional turmoil. So I don't think wanting (or even getting) emotional needs met by your T is necessarily a bad thing or a re-enactment all the time. I think the key is having a T who can walk that fine line between letting you matter to them and knowing that the ultimate goal is for you to get better and leave them behind.

Oh, so much this. This needs an extra special super duper thanks button. I am eternally grateful that my therapist is someone willing to walk that line.
And that analogy is wonderful.

[LonesomeTonight]

Will write up more in a bit, but quick note to say that it ended up being a really good session today. I shared more than I'd intended to going in, and he was very accepting and understanding about pretty much all of it. And he explained some other things more. (Hm, maybe he found this thread???)

[Echos Myron redux]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Will write up more in a bit, but quick note to say that it ended up being a really good session today. I shared more than I'd intended to going in, and he was very accepting and understanding about pretty much all of it. And he explained some other things more. (Hm, maybe he found this thread???)

I doubt it. He did say he wouldn't look at PC and he doesn't strike me as a liar. Glad it went well.

[SalingerEsme]

I get that exact same inkling/ fear my T reads this, or even far predated me.

I am so curious what happened in your session !

[SalingerEsme]

This thread is pretty amazing for the depth, array, and variety of insightful & plausible ideas

[LonesomeTonight]

OK, here you go, long as usual!

T today. Walked back to office, and I said I did in fact have a cold, did he want me to sit in the far-away chair? T: "Just don't sneeze on me." Me: "OK! I brought my own tissues, too." I sat in my usual couch spot across from him, and he went over, grabbed the wicker trash can, took the lid off, and put it next to me. Me: "Thanks."

Me: "OK, before you say anything, I know my using e-mail so much is a maladaptive way of dealing with things. And I need to figure out other ways to handle my feelings without using e-mail." T: "Is that what you think or what you're afraid I think?" Me: "I think a bit of both? I mean, I know I should find other ways of dealing with my feelings. But I also worry you're just going to say that I need to stop and that's not going to help me, I need to figure out how to do that on my own, like maybe with your help, but..." T: "That wasn't something I was going to bring up today at all." Me: "OK, I was just worried..." T: "You haven't crossed any boundaries. I mean, the ones you sent Monday took me maybe 5-10 minutes in total to read/respond to, that's not a big deal at all." Me: "Oh, OK."

I said I also realized that my reaction to stuff from Monday wasn't really about the money at all. That I was really upset, but obviously it wasn't about $20 or $45. I thought some stuff from session must have triggered it, how I was basically inconsolable for a few hours that afternoon. T: "What do you think it was from? And I don't expect you to have a definite answer. We can talk it through."

Me: "I think some of it was from talking about ex-MC, like feeling sad about that, but some of it was from stuff before that, too. I guess transference kind of stuff, like probably from my childhood that I was shifting to you. And I want to figure out what it was. That's the kind of thing I mean when I talk about working through transference." T: "OK, that would be good to figure out." Me: "The thing with working with you on transference is, remember, that it's not really about *you* but stuff from the past." T: "But it is partly about me, if I'm the object of it." Me: "Oh, I guess you're right." T: "So I am involved in it." Me: "yeah."

Me: "I think also maybe part of it was from how I wanted to play the ex-MC voicemail, but then you kept questioning me about it, and i just felt shut down, so I backed off." T: "I certainly didn't intend to make you feel that way." Me: "OK, thanks. I just felt like you expected me to know exactly what I wanted from it, and maybe I wasn't sure?" T: "OK." Me: "Was it maybe a case where you were concerned that listening to it could hurt me, make me more upset?" T: "Actually, yes, that was a concern of mine. A former client, she had a voicemail from her late mother, who had died a few years earlier. And she'd listen to it at times, and then get really upset afterward, for maybe a week or more. It was like it kept her from moving forward. She eventually ended up archiving it, so she still had it."

Me: "Oh...that makes sense. It would have been better if you'd just told me you were concerned about that though?" T: "I didn't want to plant the seed in your mind, if listening to it was really about something else for you." Me: "OK. I had thought it was more about processing it, grieving it." T: "It may have been for you. And maybe you wanted to process it here with me instead of alone. It's something you can give more thought to." Me: "OK." T: "I was also concerned because you'd said before the strong effect that ex-MC's voice can have on you." Me: "Yeah..."

Me: "Another thing I thought of is at the start of session, I said how there were some loose ends from the previous session." T: "I think we both felt there were loose ends." Me: "Yes, but I was afraid to bring them up. There was one...I wanted you to clarify something you'd said...but if I'd asked you about it...I mean, you're not stupid, you probably would have figured out why I was asking. The other thing was I wanted to share a dream with you but I was afraid to."

T: "Why were you afraid to talk about those things?" Me: "I was afraid of how you'd react, that you'd be uncomfortable or...I don't know, maybe shame me?" T: "Why would you think that?" Me: "I hate to bring this up, but...the stone." T: "I still don't know why I responded that way, it may have been about my stuff." Me: "Yeah, but it still makes me worried to bring up other stuff. I feel I should be able to talk about anything in here but then that made me think that I can't." T: "You can talk about whatever. Like I said, if it makes me uncomfortable, it's OK, we can just talk about it."

Me: "OK, well...so it's that story you told about the woman who had the fantasy with you and her husband, and then she said she wanted to rip your clothes off. So was that an issue for you because (holding up fingers) 1) she had a fantasy about you, 2) she told you about that fantasy, 3) she told you details about that fantasy, or 4) she was basically coming on to you in session?" T: "The last one." Me: "Oh...OK. That makes more sense. I thought maybe you were saying it wouldn't have been OK to share if she had a fantasy about you." T: "Well, we can't control our thoughts. I mean, we all have sexual fantasies, but I can't go sharing it with anyone I think about, because I feel like that would be sexual harassment." Me: "OK, but wouldn't it be different in therapy?" (Me, thinking to myself: You have to know why I'm asking these questions, right?)

T: "Well, I'm not sure it would have therapeutic value. I mean, it's just a normal thing to have sexual thoughts about other people. It's not like it would be a transference thing." Me: "Um, what makes you say that? Because I'm pretty sure it was a transference thing with ex-MC." T: "Oh?" Me: "Well, I mean...it felt tied in to other feelings for him. And those thoughts about him...they were more about closeness, wanted to be close to him. Rather than, like, something from a porno." T: "Oh." He said he always got the sense that I wanted "more" from ex-MC, like I wanted to be closer to him, so sex could be a way to get that, to get more intimacy. I agreed.

Me: "And I feel like there could be therapeutic value in examining some of the thoughts behind them. Like, he was giving me so much therapeutically and in caring about me, and it was like...I wanted a way to give something back to him, too. Like, I thought...ways to make him, uh, feel good. Sorry, I hope this isn't too weird talking about someone you know." T: "It's OK, it doesn't bother me. I mean, I've never had those thoughts about him personally, but..." I laughed.

Me: "And I wonder if maybe that could be connected to how I could relate to men in general?" (hint hint!) "Like stuff with H, my ex in college, how if he was upset with me, I'd think I could have sex with him, then he'd feel good and forget he was upset with me." T: "But if that's just about H, ex-bf, and ex-MC, those were people you felt particularly close to, maybe it's just about how you related to them, not all men." Me: "Maybe? I'm still saying there are thoughts coming out of it that could be useful to examine." (Have you not figured out where I'm going with this?)

I think I noticed we had 15 minutes left (always my favorite time to bring up awkward stuff!) I said there was something else I wanted to mention but was afraid to. But then if I felt I couldn't talk about it, it was like there was this block there, between us, like a wall. T: "I hope you have a better sense of where the wall is now." Me: "Yes, but I meant a thing in blocking me from talking to you." T: "Oh ok." Me: "I want to be able to share anything." T: "Remember, it's OK to talk about something even if it makes me uncomfortable. We can talk through it."

Me: "Uh...OK. [staring at carpet] So I've also had some...sexual thoughts...involving you." [Glances nervously up at him.] T: "That's OK. Like I said, you can't control what you think about." Me: "Really? I was afraid that would make you uncomfortable." T: "Not especially. If you have those kinds of thoughts about me occasionally or even more often than that, I'm OK with that." Me: "Oh, OK. That makes me feel better."

I tried to change subject. T: "Is this something you're going to be worried about later, my reaction?" Me: "You mean am I going to e-mail you after session? I don't know." T laughed. "No, I wasn't talking about you e-mailing me. I just wondered if you wanted to talk about it a little more now, since we still have a few minutes." Me: "Oh, uh, OK. But I'll still try not to e-mail. I'll try to remember what you said in session and how you said it." T: "Good. Remember, I'll always be honest with you if something were to bother me." Me: "yeah, and I appreciate that honesty...most of the time!"

Me: "I guess I just worry...you might be fine with it now, but then what if the moment I walk out the door or later tonight, you're suddenly like, 'Ew!'" T: "That would be a rather rejecting reaction!" Me: "OK, maybe not ew, but that you realize you aren't comfortable with it." T: "What do you think I would do?" Me: "Well, I'd be afraid I'd come in Monday and you'd say I have to leave." T: "No, not what you're afraid I would do. What would I actually do?" Me: "You'd talk about it with me?" T: "Yes, we'd talk through it." Me: "OK, I'll try to remember that."

We were almost at a full hour. Scheduled. I offered to use hand sanitizer before handing him my credit card (we didn't get to paying at start of session), he said was OK. As I was paying, I mentioned getting formally rejected from PhD program, saying I hadn't wanted to spend session on it. He sounded genuinely sad for me. I thanked him and said was OK. I instinctively turned for handshake, and he was like, "No handshake, right?" (because I'm sick) Me: "Right, sorry, habit!" He said he hoped I knocked the cold out quickly. I thanked him. As I turned to walk out he said, "Take care." I turned back to him and said: "You too."

[DP_2017]

LT

You are brave. I could never discuss stuff so bluntly with my t. Especially if he reacted not so good before. I think it's great you wanna look into more ways to cope aside emailing. I've done that. I made a list. Even small stuff like watch a funny movie. Its a big list but really helps

I kinda figured you had sexual thoughts when I read you brought up the lady thing. Good you could be honest and he handled it well. My t once told me...not for the same reason....but the same issue that every one has sexual fantasies. It's true. Even our therapists do as weird as that may be to think of

I'm always impressed at your memory of what was said etc
Anyway glad it went well. Hope you are able to get a good list of alternatives to email and don't fret on the sex thing. Likely has nothing to do with him. Maybe issues in your marraige or something idk. I tend not to read to much into dreams or fantasy. Sometimes our minds are just silly

[rainbow8]

Sounds like a productive session! Do you record your sessions? If not, you remember exactly what you each said? I forget about half of my session. My T doesn't talk so much but that's because I don't let her! Do you feel better after this session?

[toomanycats]

You did so awesome, LT!!!
And it sounds like he did alright too

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Sounds like a productive session! Do you record your sessions? If not, you remember exactly what you each said? I forget about half of my session. My T doesn't talk so much but that's because I don't let her! Do you feel better after this session?

No, don't record, just have a pretty good auditory memory (I'm sure I misquoted some! and definitely left some stuff out.) T can be pretty chatty, but he tells me to stop him if he talks too much (and I have!)

I do feel better after the session. Immediately after, it was like this weight was off my shoulders. Of course, now a few worries have started to creep in, but I keep trying to remind myself of what T said at the end. Will do my best to hold off on e-mailing (I think if I can make it through tonight, will probably be able to go till Monday).

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

LT

You are brave. I could never discuss stuff so bluntly with my t. Especially if he reacted not so good before. I think it's great you wanna look into more ways to cope aside emailing. I've done that. I made a list. Even small stuff like watch a funny movie. Its a big list but really helps

I kinda figured you had sexual thoughts when I read you brought up the lady thing. Good you could be honest and he handled it well. My t once told me...not for the same reason....but the same issue that every one has sexual fantasies. It's true. Even our therapists do as weird as that may be to think of

I'm always impressed at your memory of what was said etc
Anyway glad it went well. Hope you are able to get a good list of alternatives to email and don't fret on the sex thing. Likely has nothing to do with him. Maybe issues in your marraige or something idk. I tend not to read to much into dreams or fantasy. Sometimes our minds are just silly

Thanks! Yeah, maybe I need to make an actual "alternatives to e-mail" list. Nighttime tends to be harder for me.

Had he not used that female client sharing her fantasy as an example a couple sessions ago, I wouldn't have been quite as worried about his reaction. But then today when he explained the reason it bothered him, I felt more at ease. Because I'd certainly never come on to him in session. (And I think he knows that, too!) And he seems to understand that we can't really control where our thoughts go. I have my share of silly dreams (and thoughts!) too!

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by toomanycats

You did so awesome, LT!!!
And it sounds like he did alright too

Thanks! Yeah, I think he did pretty well. I'm a little mystified that he seemed completely fine with this (like I didn't really sense any discomfort at all), compared with the stone thing (where he was very open about his discomfort). Then again, I'm obviously not the first client to talk about having a fantasy about him--at the very least there was that one woman, but my guess is there were others, too.

Oh, and on a side note I asked if that woman was an individual client, and he said yes. I said, "OK, because if she was a marriage counseling client and, say, they both had that fantasy, that could be pretty awkward!" T: "I'm sure there's a website for that!"