[Rive1976]

So my therapist recommended EMDR for bringing out preverbal memories. She suspects i was abused at a young age and dont remember and also didnt have a vocabulary yet. So she ssid EMDR can bring body memories up. She said she will not be planting any memories. Isnt just suggesting a body memory may come up planting that idea?

[Ididitmyway]

You already have a thread about it, am I right?

I remember I responded by saying that EMDR is not used for the purpose of bringing memories. It's meant to process the already conscious memory. Just because some memories may come up doesn't mean EMDR should be used for the purpose of digging for memories.

I wouldn't do EMDR with the therapist who wants to use it primarily to bring some memories. It is not how it should be used. Do your own research on EMDR and also I'd recommend you to contact some EMDR training center to ask them if EMDR is used to bring memories to be absolutely sure.

[Ididitmyway]

And, to answer your question, suggesting that the body memory may come up is "planting" the idea that it may come up because that's what the person said

It is not planting any specific memory.

I agree with Ididitmyway and your T has already planted a seed by saying she suspects you were abused at a young age. If you were abused at a young age this comes out in specific behaviours later on. Maybe you should concentrate on these behaviours instead. Whats the pressure to bring out preverbal memories anyway?

[Ididitmyway]

Look, I am not trying to be confrontational here. I am genuinely trying to understand why your therapist is so invested into going into the unknown instead of working with what is known in the here and now.

What concerns me is that this idea that you might have been abused is coming from her, not from you. If you had the feeling that you were abused at the young age but don't remember, I'd, at least, understand the therapist's desire to try to get to the specific memories. But, even in that case, she can't use EMDR for that. Also, as, I think, I mentioned in the other thread, I don't believe in fishing for memories. In my experience, unconscious reveals itself on its own terms, not anyone else's.

I don't want to ask for any details, but I am just wondering what gives her the idea that you were abused...You don't need to explain if you don't want to.

[Favorite Jeans]

Originally Posted by Dnester

So my therapist recommended EMDR for bringing out preverbal memories. She suspects i was abused at a young age and dont remember and also didnt have a vocabulary yet. So she ssid EMDR can bring body memories up. She said she will not be planting any memories. Isnt just suggesting a body memory may come up planting that idea?

Yes. Yes it is.

This is very troubling. I always want to leave room for the possibility that I am misunderstanding and that I don't know the whole context but... It sounds like this T really doesn't keep up with the science on trauma. Her approach strikes me as not okay and not in keeping with the times.

If you were abused, there was an abuser. If you were "abused," there was an "abuser." Do you see the tremendous potential for harm to you and others here? We are so vulnerable and so suggestible when dealing with our pain in therapy. This is not something an ethical therapist speculates about aloud with her client!

In any field, I have found that the ability to tolerate uncertainty is the mark of a superior mind. In therapy that might mean the ability to see that you have this pain and these symptoms and accept that neither of you fully understand them. You can work to lessen their hold on you and in talking over time you'll probably both understand more about where it all comes from. But you'll never know everything. The idea that there's some hocus-pocus technique (which, as IDIMW mentioned, is not the purpose of EMDR anyway) that would give you all the answers like an episode of CSI is wishful thinking. But in reality it's dumb and dangerous.

[ShashaCruz]

i would have faith in your professional trained T that has much more clarity into your problems than us amateur laypersons playing around a inlicensed T's. if you don't trust your T get new T

[Rive1976]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

Look, I am not trying to be confrontational here. I am genuinely trying to understand why your therapist is so invested into going into the unknown instead of working with what is known in the here and now.

What concerns me is that this idea that you might have been abused is coming from her, not from you. If you had the feeling that you were abused at the young age but don't remember, I'd, at least, understand the therapist's desire to try to get to the specific memories. But, even in that case, she can't use EMDR for that. Also, as, I think, I mentioned in the other thread, I don't believe in fishing for memories. In my experience, unconscious reveals itself on its own terms, not anyone else's.

I don't want to ask for any details, but I am just wondering what gives her the idea that you were abused...You don't need to explain if you don't want to.

Because I want to know why I have certain behaviors. Example: being very comfortable around topics such as sexual abuse. I have been that way since I was about 7. Also just being really uncomfortable about sex in general. Among other things. Also to I was a very sexual child. I have no answers to how I got this way. Also some bad sexual impulses I have. I only remember sexual play with peers. It doesnt explain were all of my issues come from. I desperately need to know in order to heal but that hasnt happened yet because I have no answers only specualtions. So she suspects something may of happened to me I dont remember.

[Rive1976]

Originally Posted by Favorite Jeans

Yes. Yes it is.

This is very troubling. I always want to leave room for the possibility that I am misunderstanding and that I don't know the whole context but... It sounds like this T really doesn't keep up with the science on trauma. Her approach strikes me as not okay and not in keeping with the times.

If you were abused, there was an abuser. If you were "abused," there was an "abuser." Do you see the tremendous potential for harm to you and others here? We are so vulnerable and so suggestible when dealing with our pain in therapy. This is not something an ethical therapist speculates about aloud with her client!

In any field, I have found that the ability to tolerate uncertainty is the mark of a superior mind. In therapy that might mean the ability to see that you have this pain and these symptoms and accept that neither of you fully understand them. You can work to lessen their hold on you and in talking over time you'll probably both understand more about where it all comes from. But you'll never know everything. The idea that there's some hocus-pocus technique (which, as IDIMW mentioned, is not the purpose of EMDR anyway) that would give you all the answers like an episode of CSI is wishful thinking. But in reality it's dumb and dangerous.

I understand what you are saying completely. The thing is in my mind I know I cant know. In my heart I meed it so bad. I dont even think if i had the answers I would be free in all honesty. I dont know what my deal is.

[ShashaCruz]

you need make decisions on your confidence with your current T. if you believe in her then you should follow all her instructions since she is professional shrink. if not find one you trust. Professional advice should should take precedent over amateur opinions of other patients on a forum of course

[seeker33]

I understand the struggle. I truly do. I've got similar issues. Someone might say it doesn't matter now, just solve the present situation and forget the past. But I think it's natural to want to know the truth. I have some very vague clues about my own abuse but no real memories either. The uncertainty is devastating.

I'm sorry I know this doesn't help you at all... I just wanted to say you're not alone.

[Rive1976]

Originally Posted by seeker33

I understand the struggle. I truly do. I've got similar issues. Someone might say it doesn't matter now, just solve the present situation and forget the past. But I think it's natural to want to know the truth. I have some very vague clues about my own abuse but no real memories either. The uncertainty is devastating.

I'm sorry I know this doesn't help you at all... I just wanted to say you're not alone.

Thank you!

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by Dnester

Because I want to know why I have certain behaviors. Example: being very comfortable around topics such as sexual abuse. I have been that way since I was about 7. Also just being really uncomfortable about sex in general. Among other things. Also to I was a very sexual child. I have no answers to how I got this way. Also some bad sexual impulses I have. I only remember sexual play with peers. It doesnt explain were all of my issues come from. I desperately need to know in order to heal but that hasnt happened yet because I have no answers only specualtions. So she suspects something may of happened to me I dont remember.

Well, I certainly can't comment on your specific case. What you have shared about your behaviors and feelings isn't nearly enough for me to make any assumptions one way or another. Whether these things are indications of possible sexual abuse depends on a much bigger context of your childhood upbringing than what you have shared. But I definitely don't want to get into more details because it'd be inappropriate to analyze your childhood here. I do believe it's possible to get some important insights on these things that trouble you just by talking about them in session if the therapist poses questions correctly. But I am certainly not the one to judge that since, as I said, I don't have enough information.

Regardless, EMDR is not a method for bringing up memories and any therapist who suggests EMDR for that purpose is not trustworthy in terms of their competence and their ethics. If she is certified to do EMDR she should know better. And if she is not EMDR certified therapist I wouldn't even consider doing it with her.

What I don't understand is, if you need to know this so desperately, why don't you do more of your own research in terms of what is and isn't possible, safe and reliable? Why not just contact EMDR training center to see for yourself what EMDR is and isn't good for? Just talk to competent people who are trained in that method and see what they say. Learn more about the procedure.

But you don't seem to want to learn more. When people tell you that EMDR is not for the purpose of bringing memories you dismiss it. Why? If you want to dig for memories then it'd only make sense to, at least, make sure that what you are about to do is

a) appropriate for that purpose
b) save
c) is done by a trained practitioner who knows what they are doing

To be honest, I am not aware of any procedure/method that was specifically designed for bringing memories and that includes hypnosis. I know that memories may come spontaneously during certain procedures but they may not at all be the memories you are looking for. And, also, they may come spontaneously at ANY time. They may come to you when you are driving.

There is no method at this time that can magically pull out from your mind exactly what you are looking for. Any therapist or other practitioner who tells you that it's possible is either utterly delusional or a charlatan or just someone who wants to impose their agenda on you. In any case they shouldn't be practicing.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by Dnester

I understand what you are saying completely. The thing is in my mind I know I cant know. In my heart I meed it so bad. I dont even think if i had the answers I would be free in all honesty. I dont know what my deal is.

It just seems like you want to stop hurting and you are willing to do whatever it takes. I know I've been there. Just remember that when you are in such desperate state of mind you are very vulnerable and can be easily taken advantage of by anyone who suggests that your troubles could be cured by some hocus-pocus procedure.

I suggest you to just take some time to define for yourself what you want specifically. I know you want to be free and not hurting but that's too general to achieve. Ask yourself what that freedom would look like, what you'd be feeling and doing differently if you were free and go for that specific goals.

[Rive1976]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

It just seems like you want to stop hurting and you are willing to do whatever it takes. I know I've been there. Just remember that when you are in such desperate state of mind you are very vulnerable and can be easily taken advantage of by anyone who suggests that your troubles could be cured by some hocus-pocus procedure.

I suggest you to just take some time to define for yourself what you want specifically. I know you want to be free and not hurting but that's too general to achieve. Ask yourself what that freedom would look like, what you'd be feeling and doing differently if you were free and go for that specific goals.

Well there is a couple of things going on here. Ever since I was 11 I started having thoughts of victimizing children. I have never acted. I feel like I dont know where this comes from. Psychologists dont even know. I know I will never get a answer and be free. I am so desperate I would be willing to find out what caused it at all costs. I know it will only give me very temporary relief though because even people who were abused dont feel this way. So am I just destined to suffer?

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by Dnester

Well there is a couple of things going on here. Ever since I was 11 I started having thoughts of victimizing children. I have never acted. I feel like I dont know where this comes from. Psychologists dont even know. I know I will never get a answer and be free. I am so desperate I would be willing to find out what caused it at all costs. I know it will only give me very temporary relief though because even people who were abused dont feel this way. So am I just destined to suffer?

I am so sorry you are suffering so much. I know when people have these thoughts and compulsions it's agonizing, especially because it is so difficult to share them with others for the fear of being harshly judged.

One thing that, I think, is important for you to do is to acknowledge your strengths in the fact that you have never acted on those thoughts. When the thoughts are compulsive, it's very difficult not to act on them, so you have a good reason to feel good about yourself in that regard.

If I were your therapist, I'd work with you on trying to understand the desire to do things to children. Not the origin of it but in terms of what kind of emotional reward this desire is trying to get. Because every behavior has a purpose. You don't need to know the cause of it to understand the purpose of it.

And, by the way, many people who were abused DO become abusers. The majority of them, in fact And vice verse most abusers (if not all) were victims of abuse at some point. It's a very inconvenient fact for people to digest but it's a fact. We, as a society, love to divide the world into "good" and "bad" people. We believe that the person is either a victim or a perpetrator and that they can never be both when, in most cases, they are both, but this is too complex for our simplistic brains to digest.

That said, I can only repeat that you may not be able to ever uncover any memories of violations done to you, which does NOT mean you can't work on your compulsion in the here and now. The way to go with this IMO is to try to understand the desire itself and what it is about doing those things that would make you feel better. That alone could give a wealth of information about how to proceed.

I do not, however, think that it'd be appropriate for you to analyze this on any public forum. You need to go on some serious search for a therapist who can do this work with you and do it that way. That's the only way for you to address this problem at this moment IMO.

[Rive1976]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

I am so sorry you are suffering so much. I know when people have these thoughts and compulsions it's agonizing, especially because it is so difficult to share them with others for the fear of being harshly judged.

One thing that, I think, is important for you to do is to acknowledge your strengths in the fact that you have never acted on those thoughts. When the thoughts are compulsive, it's very difficult not to act on them, so you have a good reason to feel good about yourself in that regard.

If I were your therapist, I'd work with you on trying to understand the desire to do things to children. Not the origin of it but in terms of what kind of emotional reward this desire is trying to get. Because every behavior has a purpose. You don't need to know the cause of it to understand the purpose of it.

And, by the way, many people who were abused DO become abusers. The majority of them, in fact And vice verse most abusers (if not all) were victims of abuse at some point. It's a very inconvenient fact for people to digest but it's a fact. We, as a society, love to divide the world into "good" and "bad" people. We believe that the person is either a victim or a perpetrator and that they can never be both when, in most cases, they are both, but this is too complex for our simplistic brains to digest.

That said, I can only repeat that you may not be able to ever uncover any memories of violations done to you, which does NOT mean you can't work on your compulsion in the here and now. The way to go with this IMO is to try to understand the desire itself and what it is about doing those things that would make you feel better. That alone could give a wealth of information about how to proceed.

I do not, however, think that it'd be appropriate for you to analyze this on any public forum. You need to go on some serious search for a therapist who can do this work with you and do it that way. That's the only way for you to address this problem at this moment IMO.

Thank you. Its just so hard. My mother gave me some information that I had forgotten about and i am having trouble processing it. My mom told me at 8 that i told my father i wanted to give him o**l s*x. Thats why I am kind of stumped right now its just like a puzzle with missimg pieces. I dont know where to begin in processing all of this. I greatly appreciate your help. That is good advice.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by Dnester

Thank you. Its just so hard. My mother gave me some information that I had forgotten about and i am having trouble processing it. My mom told me at 8 that i told my father i wanted to give him o**l s*x. Thats why I am kind of stumped right now its just like a puzzle with missimg pieces. I dont know where to begin in processing all of this. I greatly appreciate your help. That is good advice.

You are welcome. Make sure to interview all potential therapists properly. Unfortunately, this might be a costly process because, in your case, I believe, you'd have to have a face-to-face meeting with each potential therapist. Your case is too sensitive and also difficult to rely on phone interviews.

When you meet with each of them, ask them if they are experienced in working with people who

a) were sexually abused as children
b) perpetrators of child sexual abus
c) people who have sexual obsession about children but who never acted on them

If they ask you why you are asking those questions just explain your situation as it is. They are bound by the requirement to keep what you say confidential so you can explain the whole situation with no fear and explain what you expect from a therapist. If you sense that they are even slightly uncomfortable with the topic or judgmental towards you, move on to interviewing the next one. You want to make sure you find the right match. Good luck.

[feralkittymom]

And, by the way, many people who were abused DO become abusers. The majority of them, in fact And vice verse most abusers (if not all) were victims of abuse at some point. It's a very inconvenient fact for people to digest but it's a fact. We, as a society, love to divide the world into "good" and "bad" people. We believe that the person is either a victim or a perpetrator and that they can never be both when, in most cases, they are both, but this is too complex for our simplistic brains to digest.



Without hijacking the OP's thread--because I think this would be important info for them, too--I would like to challenge you to provide supporting evidence for this claim that most people who were abused become abusers. It's probably the most offensive statement I've ever read on this board, and as I have a pretty good command of the literature, it represents an opinion I have not seen cited elsewhere.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

And, by the way, many people who were abused DO become abusers. The majority of them, in fact And vice verse most abusers (if not all) were victims of abuse at some point. It's a very inconvenient fact for people to digest but it's a fact. We, as a society, love to divide the world into "good" and "bad" people. We believe that the person is either a victim or a perpetrator and that they can never be both when, in most cases, they are both, but this is too complex for our simplistic brains to digest.



It's probably the most offensive statement I've ever read on this board

Yes, I knew it'd offend some people. May be many people. That's okay.

[nottrustin]

One of the things T and I always discussed is if one have repressed memories there is a reason they are repressed. When we are capable of dealing the repressed memories thwy will come out on the own. To force them out could be traumatizing.

Also from my understanding of EMDR it doesn't bring out repressed memories. For me it bringd out repressed and burried emotions but not memories

[Favorite Jeans]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

Yes, I knew it'd offend some people. May be many people. That's okay.

The issue isn't only its offensiveness but its absolute lack of basis in fact.

[Rive1976]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

I am so sorry you are suffering so much. I know when people have these thoughts and compulsions it's agonizing, especially because it is so difficult to share them with others for the fear of being harshly judged.

One thing that, I think, is important for you to do is to acknowledge your strengths in the fact that you have never acted on those thoughts. When the thoughts are compulsive, it's very difficult not to act on them, so you have a good reason to feel good about yourself in that regard.

If I were your therapist, I'd work with you on trying to understand the desire to do things to children. Not the origin of it but in terms of what kind of emotional reward this desire is trying to get. Because every behavior has a purpose. You don't need to know the cause of it to understand the purpose of it.

And, by the way, many people who were abused DO become abusers. The majority of them, in fact And vice verse most abusers (if not all) were victims of abuse at some point. It's a very inconvenient fact for people to digest but it's a fact. We, as a society, love to divide the world into "good" and "bad" people. We believe that the person is either a victim or a perpetrator and that they can never be both when, in most cases, they are both, but this is too complex for our simplistic brains to digest.

That said, I can only repeat that you may not be able to ever uncover any memories of violations done to you, which does NOT mean you can't work on your compulsion in the here and now. The way to go with this IMO is to try to understand the desire itself and what it is about doing those things that would make you feel better. That alone could give a wealth of information about how to proceed.

I do not, however, think that it'd be appropriate for you to analyze this on any public forum. You need to go on some serious search for a therapist who can do this work with you and do it that way. That's the only way for you to address this problem at this moment IMO.

I am curious about how understanding the desire but not rhe origin would benefit me?

[Rive1976]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

Yes, I knew it'd offend some people. May be many people. That's okay.

Its offensive to some because they dont understand how someone could possibly have these thoughts. People dont just say hey! I think i will think these horrible thoughts. They come from somewhere. Where psychologists dont even know. Also alot of people arent aware you can have these thoughts but not act on them. When I was 11 I was already aware my thoughts were bad. I just didnt know it had a name. At that time my cousin who was 10 asked a girl who was about 7 to play a sexual game with us. I immediately freaked out because i had bad thoughts about her anyway. I dont remember what I did or said but I know I stopped it. It did not happen. One because I didnt want her to be a victim and two because I didnt want to be a perpetrator.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by Dnester

I am curious about how understanding the desire but not rhe origin would benefit me?

If I get into this, it could easily turn into your analysis, which, as I said, would be inappropriate to do on public forum. I think, you should focus on finding the best suitable therapist to work with and discuss it with them.