[Xynesthesia2]

From the outside (reading these posts), your relationship with this T definitely has a progression in that it is getting more personal and involving on both ends. As I said before, it is hard for me to imagine that working with you is not quite stimulating for this T. A stimulating, highly productive work relationship with a compatible person can, by itself, create a form of sexual tension and something that feels like attraction for many people - I have experienced it many times. It does not have to involve genuine physical attraction at all but it can certainly feel very similar. I got confused about relationships like that quite a few times in my life and even acted out in ways that I really regretted later. It took me quite a bit of experience to recognize it for what it is and keep it that way, also not to verbalize it, but the feelings can still be the same: very pleasant and energizing. I imagine that many therapists experience similar with clients they like to work with and find it stimulating. It a quite distinct situation from real sexual/romantic attraction but transference can feel very similar in my experience.

[LonesomeTonight]

Bringing this thread back for posting email exchange with Dr. T:
Hi Dr. [T],

I had hoped to come into session today and reconnect with you. But I feel like it was the polar opposite. I now know what kept me from mentioning the standing thing for the past year and a half. Maybe deep down I knew what your reaction would be? Like I had hoped you'd say, "Wow, I had no idea that bothered you, of course I can stand for a minute when you leave." When instead, it's apparently too much of an imposition for you to stand up for 60 seconds. I know we're going to try the paying at the beginning thing, so that you'll be willing to stand, because you'd be standing anyway. But it still really bothers me that you are unwilling in the pay-at-the-end arrangement.

And also that you seem rather reluctant to consider what you're saying at the end as I'm leaving, even though we've had multiple conversations about it. I guess they just seem like small things to me that could make a huge difference to how I feel when leaving.

I know you might not understand why these things are important to me. I tried to explain and you said you understood--but I don't know that you really did? Honestly, it's almost easier for me to deal with it if you just don't get it (though I'd want to try to explain it to you more). But if you *do* get it and just aren't willing to make the effort (whether physical with standing or mental with remembering what I prefer you to say when I leave)...it just feels like you don't really care enough. And I'm not just expecting you to care out of the goodness of your heart--I'm also paying you for that consideration (yes, I know I'm paying a reduced rate, which I appreciate).

The thing is--I think much of this is coming from a young place in me. Like this isn't only just about your standing up (though it would be nice if you could do that!). It's partly about something else, but I'm not sure what, and your reaction to my bringing it up makes me feel reluctant to try to address that with you. But I feel I need to. Because I had a really strong reaction to something that likely seemed not to warrant it. So that suggests other s*** is going on. Can we explore that?

I just feel really disconnected and doubting our therapeutic relationship today, and I don't want to feel that way. Help? I accept the charge if you opt for a longer response.

Thanks,
[LT]

T's reply at around 7:15 this morning:
Hi [LT],

I appreciate your sharing with me how you felt about the session today, and I'm sorry to know that you felt so hurt and disconnected by my reaction to your request that I stand and say something specific at the end of our sessions. I'm glad that you shared your feelings with me, and I do appreciate what you had to say, and while I do not fully understand why this is so important to you I think I 'get' your request.

I've been trying to think of the best way to write this, but can't come up with anything other than taking a direct approach. Hopefully you will be willing to come in on Thursday to talk about it in greater detail. You know how I feel about emails, they lack emotional inflection and can come off as more cold or hostile, which I'm quite sure you will read from what I write. I had debated just having this wait until Thursday, but I felt there was an insistence in the tone of your email that suggested to me your wanting a response more quickly than that.

While I can understand your position, I am not willing to make all the changes you suggested, although I believe I have already made an effort to say something in parting that is more in-line with what you had requested previously. I can also understand your observation about parting comments being more in-sync with the tone of what came previously, although my opinion is that a parting comment can often have a hopeful or optimistic encouragement even it if that's not parallel to what came prior.

Regarding standing up or sitting down, I will continue to do what I feel comfortable with. I would prefer it if you didn't read into it, although it's clear that you already do. I believe you are taking personally something that has nothing to do with you, and while I do not want you to perceive me as rude, that would be your right to judge if you so choose. I have no desire to allow my actions/behavior to be micromanaged by you or anyone else, and I feel quite strongly that as long as I listen and consider my behavior thoughtfully I have the right to make my own decisions about something like standing or sitting. I also do not feel that I owe an explanation about the decision if I don't want to give it, and that is the case in this situation. The most I am willing to say is, it has nothing to do with you.

I'll add that turnabout is fair play. Many people have behaviors that I find irritating or annoying, or even rude. I feel as though I can ask them to change or stop those behaviors but in the end it is up to them whether or not they choose to do so. And the purpose of those behaviors may be unknown to me. I also feel that people don't owe me the privilege of changing for my benefit, whether or not I am paying them for their time.

I understand that you are likely to be frustrated or angry about my response, and I am prepared to talk to you about it. I do not want you to feel disconnected, and I'd like to work on a path through this. We have worked through many issues in the past, and I am optimistic that this can be one of them.

Ouch, I would feel hurt by that too. I wish he would have just said "let's talk about this next time" and left it at that. Hugs LT.

Eta: it felt ok at first then I started feeling bad for you the longer I read. Probably my own attachment stuff, my own 'good girl' complex, that says I would feel very scolded by parts of this if it came from L. Lots of 'my stuff' in my reaction I realize.

[atisketatasket]

LT, it might be helpful if you explained exactly where this email troubles you. Because I agree with him in substance (and I would feel the same way if the same request were made of me), and reading tone on a screen is so dicey I think it just complicates things here.

[LonesomeTonight]

Will explain later--headed out the door in a minute. The main thing is, it's really not just about the standing up, which I said. I know something else is going on with me, and I want to focus on exploring that. It was partly T's tone in session yesterday as well--really, throughout the session, even before I brought up this topic (which was at like the halfway point). Maybe it's partly because he'd been away and we weren't connected. I feel a lot of it though was having seen R for two sessions, and she has a very different style, so it just highlighted what has felt lacking (overall, not just yesterday) regarding him.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ArtieSwimsOn

Ouch, I would feel hurt by that too. I wish he would have just said "let's talk about this next time" and left it at that. Hugs LT.

Eta: it felt ok at first then I started feeling bad for you the longer I read. Probably my own attachment stuff, my own 'good girl' complex, that says I would feel very scolded by parts of this if it came from L. Lots of 'my stuff' in my reaction I realize.

Thanks, Art. I have a "good girl" thing, too. So I think I also may have felt scolded. And like a child. Though I suspect it's my child part that reacted to the standing stuff anyway. And I also wish he'd just said let's talk about it next time. But I also emailed, so...I guess I sort of was asking for it. I wish he'd said he wanted to explore more what it was about, what was going on with me. It just feels he made it all about him. Rather than going with what I said about how I think this is at least partly about something else. Maybe I should have just made the whole email about that element, I don't know. But I can't unsend it...

[unaluna]

You say you are paying him to keep HIS feelings out of any situation with you. I agree. You are paying him for his professional attitude towards you.

You would not be getting fair value if he just said to himself, "my PERSONAL feeling is that it is no big deal if i stand or sit. But my PROFESSIONAL understanding is that this should be explored, under tension. Eff it, i will stand."

This seems to me the same point you reached with ex-MC, except MC made a mistake and acceded to your demand, continuing the off-session time phone call. That was a one time shot, which you won, but you ultimately lost.

This time you have a much better chance at resolving the issue, as it is ongoing. You must be feeling pretty safe, despite saying you want to quit him.

Eta - just read your reply to Art. I agree, i was surprised your email was so focused on rehashing what had happened, rather than what it meant. So i think he simply replied in kind to the quantity-content.

It's that damn vulnerability thing making you want to quit, maybe LT? I've realized that's a big player in when I want to quit. I can't stand feeling so ****ing seen, the feeling of L seeing my shadow part and accepting it, accepting what I cannot, it's just almost too much for me to bear. Sorry if this does not apply I just realized it and need it written down and don't know how to copy/paste on my phone from Tapatalk.

[NP_Complete]

If I had received that reply, I would also be feeling scolded and chastised.

To be fair, your tone at the start of your email was kind of salty, but I think you turned it around and explained well that you wanted his help in figuring out where this was coming from. I don't think he addressed that well at all. When he says that he knows you're going to take his response as cold and hostile, that's when he should have stopped writing and suggested talking about this in session.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

I have a couple of different thoughts on this, some might not apply after you have explained what hurts you about the email, but I might not have time later so putting this down now.

1) my T always says that even though you have a special, paid, whatever relationship with your therapist, you still have a relationship. Some things a T might change, say for example he did that with the stone for you, right? At first he was uncomfortable, then you two discussed it, eventually he was okay with it, and now he's fine with it, if you want a new one or keep the old one and so on. But that doesn't mean he has to change everything you so feel comfortable, which I also think you agree with, as far as I remember from other posts.
This seems to be one thing (and even though he doesn't explain why, at least the 'standing up' thing is something that I'd consider a 'minor' thing if people did that with me) he's not willing to change. People do that in relationships, I might change the fact that I put up flowers everywhere if my partner is allergic to flowers, but I might not want to change every bit of how I like to decorate.
The way this is normally resolved between me and my T (as well as with other people) is by talking through it. If somebody just goes along with everything that you want, this will not help you or be good for you.

I feel like your T felt that he should respond to you early, at least I'd have felt that way if received your email. And since you said you'd be fine with a longer response, he might have wanted to explain a bit (which as he said in his response, it's easy to understand the same text sooo many different ways).

2) This might sound harsh, which I really don't intend. This is just what I keep thinking when reading your posts (though I don't have enough time anymore to post as much, I still read this forum very frequently).
You said that part of it might have been that you saw what R was like, could distinguish between what was missing in your relationship and what you might also like better. I think this is part of why I'm not a big fan of having two therapists or seeing a backup therapist every time a T is gone.
A backup T is fine in certain cases, say my anxiety once sky rocketed like a day after the start of my Ts vacation (unrelated to him) and I didn't have anyone to turn to. But to see them 'whenever' your T is out of town, that just makes things much more complicated, confusing and hard. You might see things that you like better about somebody else, and then constantly search for that in your T. Similar to having a partner, but at the same time seeing what all the other people seem be be more suitable at. 'The grass is greener on the other side'. Sometimes it can be beneficial, like to talk your through a immediate crisis, like somebody died, you suddenly start to have hallucinations, whatever. But just doing regular therapy with them is something different, different Ts have different styles, different approaches, it can interfere (just like two medical treatments for a physical disease can).

[Rive.]

I don't see that T said anything reprehensible.

I found your email to him rather harsh and somewhat accusatory (e.g. I pay for your time, so think of me and/or do as I say).. Ouch. Much to his credit (and I wonder how many Ts would be able to do so) he remained professional, rather than defensive. He also made it clear that you may not approve of his behaviour but he does not have to comply and satisfy every client's wish. For me, that is a respectful boundary setting that he exemplified rather than automatically giving in to clients. He has made a lot of effort to accommodate you in the past but standing up or not, does not warrant such a reaction.

It seems (from the email exchange) that you were putting him on the spot: I am hurt, sad, so change! Why should he change..? You guys may talk about it but it comes across more like an over-reaction to a trivial behaviour and a demand to change.

Explore the cause by all means but he (or anyone else) really shouldn't change how they are if they are not doing anything wrong, or if they are not comfortable doing so.

[SlumberKitty]

Dear LT, I'm sorry that you are feeling hurt and upset over T not standing and then again by his email. I'm not sure I see why him standing or not standing is so important to you but it seems like it is related somehow to him caring about you and showing that he cares about you. My apologies if that is not what it is about. At my last session, my T kept calling me the wrong name. It's a version of my name, but it's not my name. It bothered me but I didn't say anything about it. I didn't infer that she cared less about me (I did infer she's too busy to properly look at her forms before seeing me or she just assumes my name is a shortened version of that name which it is not). I didn't call her out on it. I could tell by the rest of the session that she does care about me. It seems like you are staking a lot on this one thing--standing or not standing. Would it be at all helpful to make a list of the things your T does that shows you that he cares about you? You also seemed to say that it felt like he didn't get you. But sometimes it seems like he does indeed "get" you very much so. But T's are human and they make mistakes, and they miss the mark sometimes. It's like playing darts. You can't have a bullseye every time. Can you think about some of the positive things T has done that has been helpful to you? Then maybe you can discuss at your next appointment what you think the standing and not standing is really about. Because when something that may not be the biggest deal is impacting us, it might be the tip of the iceburg that needs to be excavated. I already know you are very brave and I think you can face this. Perhaps the reason you hadn't brought up the standing not standing thing before now is that you are now ready to deal with the iceburg. No matter what, we are here for you, cheering you on, supporting you, rooting for you. HUGS Kit

[JaneTennison1]

T didnt say anything that I hugely disagree with. It is his business and his choice and he doesnt owe yku an explanation. His decision is his. Plus I do think you can work things out as you have before.

That being said, I do get being stung by that email. It focuses on one issue and not everything you said which is the problem with email sometimes. I think you guys will go in and discuss the issue in depth and I wish you luck while you do

Do you know the Bob Dylan song, "It Ain't Me Babe"? Seems like he is using a lot of words to tell you that. He could have saved you some money on the long email and just sent you a YouTube link to the song. I am not being facetious (towards you at least).

[ScarletPimpernel]

I would be hurt by this response as well. However, he does make a valid point: why are you trying to control him? You're trying to make him into something he's not. You have the right to ask for a change, but it's up to that person if they're willing to change.

In the beginning of my relationship with T, I asked her if she could try to be more expressive with her facial expressions. She tried, but in the end she said no. She did give me a reason: if she concentrated on her facial expressions, she couldn't concentrate on what I was saying.

Maybe part of the reason this is bothering you is because you don't understand why he can't get up. It does seem weird he's not willing to make that change, but I guess it's his own personal issues (though I can't really think of what issue it could be).

You know it's up to you to either accept his shortcomings or to reject it and move on. Personally, I don't understand why you're with this guy. He seems to give you more grief than what you're already dealing with. But I do understand attachment and transference. You're in a tough spot, LT.

If it were me, I'd go to session and try to figure things out. Then sit with it for awhile and see if you can accept his position.

[feralkittymom]

Well, this was bound to end up just as it has, wasn't it? You recognize this is about more than his standing or not. You recognize the emotion you're placing on this one minor action is excessive. The task of therapy is to take that awareness and follow it through, rather than short-circuit it by action. And that's where you are right now: you want to follow it through. The problem is, he doesn't share your framework for the task of therapy. He's a CBT sports psych guy and you keep trying to get him to respond outside his area of practice. He doesn't want to do psychodynamic therapy, yet you keep demanding that he do so. And he keeps dragging you back to that fact, which you don't want to accept.

That's a reenactment in the making. A reason it hasn't blown up entirely is that he won't play along. In that respect, he's doing his job. But the problem is that it still leaves you with an emotional conundrum that you can't resolve with him.

I'm curious about why the recognition on your part that this is about your childhood relationship with your parents isn't enough of a realization for you? Why isn't it for you to think about and solve? You know very well that he is not going to meet the unmet need; he's made that ever so clear. But you've already reached the insight: why do you need him to engage with you about it? You've said before that your parents dismissed your anxieties as a child and you felt some combination of shame/invisibility/confusion/pain about that. OK--there's an unmet need. But to expect someone who has been very clear that they are not going to meet that need and see no point in engaging about it, to nevertheless meet it, is fruitless. It's not therapeutic, it's a compulsion. Are you sure it isn't also fueled by anxiety/OCD?

I think he is defensive, and I think he doesn't express himself in the most skilled way. I think there is a level of rudeness in his reply. But one thing he is clear about is his boundaries and the psychological arena in which he practices. And he is clear about your refusal to accept this. I thought he should have drawn the line at the stone. I can imagine he talked himself into allowing it out of a sense of the stone as a talisman and mindfulness during your interview. That would fit with a sports psych perspective. It was when you made the association of connection to him that he got uncomfortable--because that is a psychoanalytically based concept, and he either doesn't know much about it or has rejected it.


For me, it's the question: what's really going on that you feel a need to keep trying to make him respond in a way that is counter to his perspective? And how does that help you? If he's been helpful in terms of anxiety or something, fine--keep using him for that. If he's a pretty good T, he'll keep drawing that line in the sand; if the time comes when he feels there's diminishing benefit to you to keep seeing you, he'll terminate. But you're never going to get needs met that are beyond the scope of his practice.

[kaleidoscopeheart]

I can definitely see how T's response would trigger some serious feelings and I am sorry that you are struggling with this. It can definitely be read in a way that feels like you are being scolded but, if it is possible for you to step back from the emotions involved, it can also just be read as him calmly setting boundaries. The therapeutic relationship is a confusing mess sometimes. I think you have every right to ask for what you need. That being said, he also has the right to refuse. Who knows, maybe he has insecurities too that make him uncomfortable standing at the end of the appointment.... like maybe he sweats a lot and if he stood you would see his whole backside was soaking wet from sitting so long or there is a pool of sweat in his chair or something like that. Anyway, I really hope you are able to go in and reconnect with him and work this out. In the long run, does it really matter if he sits or stands at the end? I know you said that it was about something else, but you weren't sure what. Maybe spend the time from now until your next appointment focusing on that and not so much how he ends the appointment? Sometimes it helps me to try and figure out what other time in my life I felt similar feelings and work out from there.

[Lonelyinmyheart]

LT, I'm sorry you're struggling with this. I don't know the full situation but on reading your T's response I wanted to offer one thought, which is I think it's good your T hasn't agreed to stand like you asked. I don't mean this to sound uncaring or anything like that, but the fact he has refused to do it means that you and him can have a conversation about it, if you're so willing. If he simply caved in and said yes, okay, I'll do it, the emotion will settle inside you, but then the opportunity for looking at what standing versus sitting means to you is less available once the feelings die down. In many cases tension in therapy offers the chance to really look at what is going on for you rather than covering it up with a sticking plaster until the next occasion presents itself (and it usually does). Personally I think like many others, your T sounds professional and good with boundaries, he is right that he doesn't have to change his behaviour for clients, but he is willing to discuss all this with you, which is essential. It will likely get messy but herein lies the opportunity for growth, albeit painful. I hope you and T can work it out.

Would you want him to stand up at the end knowing that he really doesn't want to?

To me, there is no emotional satisfaction in that.

Yes, they may give in and do it, but not because they want to but to appease the other person.

[StressedMess]

I feel like his shaking your hand from a seated position might be percieved as bad manners. I wouldn't feel unimportant or belittled if someone didn't stand when I stood, but I might find it odd and be puzzled. The conversation needs to be about the feelings you have, not about his actions. He doesn't have to explain why he won't stand, but maybe you can explain how it feels when he doesn't. Quite possibly it's a battle you can't win, but it might lead you to that young place and allow you to express those feelings.

[LonesomeTonight]

Thanks for all the input--I may reply later. But seeing T at 2:30 tomorrow. Was going to try to consult with backup T, but they both vetoed that idea. He said I could talk to someone who doesn't know him (funny, because just yesterday we briefly talked about how it was difficult having an intense session with backup T Thursday then not being able to see her again till he's away, and he said I could see her if I wanted before that, he's not possessive). But I'll see how it goes tomorrow. If it goes poorly, I will track down another T, at least to consult with.

[InnerPeace111]

Normally I’m not in the habit of giving advice or telling others what to do but here goes...

Trouble is brewing here, LT. Your T told you he doesn’t want to be micromanaged and T and backup T have already discussed and vetoed your request for the consultation.

My best advice:

1) No more demands about what T should or should not do for you. I’m guessing the micromanaging feels hurtful to him as it would to anyone else.

2) No more emails unless it’s for scheduling purposes. No therapeutic content in emails moving forward - discuss everything face to face in session.

3) Continue to discuss all of your feelings surrounding T’s behavior (and how it impacts you) in session while using “I” statements every time.

Disclaimer: I really have no idea whether my advice is what is best for you or not. These are just my particular thoughts at this moment in time. But maybe you will find something of value...something meaningful in what I’ve written here?

I admire your courage and perseverance! I wish you all the best as you move forward!

[stopdog]

I do think this triangulation thing is a pattern with you and therapists (I have no idea if it is a thing with you and real people or not). Have you ever considered seeing a completely new therapist who is not in some way connected with or knows the ones you are seeing now? I am a fan of having more than one therapist but it seems very messy to have them all tangled up with each other in these ways.

[snowangel17]

Sorry that you're hurting LT. I can understand you feeling 'scolded'. I do think that your T's email wasn't that bad though. I feel he was clear and professional and laid out his boundary. I can understand his objection to standing and his dislike of being micromanaged as when I read your email to me it sounded like that's what was you were trying to do. I don't think you were as you say I think it's about a lot of other things but I can see how it could come across like that to him. As another poster said he perhaps might be best to start exploring why you want him to stand, what does it mean to you for him to stand? What does it mean for you that he won't stand etc. I hope your session tomorrow goes okay and you resolve some things

[InkyBooky]

In my opinion, your T really missed an opportunity here. Your desire for him to stand (and be more mindful regarding his parting words) isn’t about the farewell greeting etiquette itself..... it’s about something much deeper in you. Yet he took your “demand” at face value. He really missed the mark. He should’ve immediately recognized this isn’t about him at all (or about sitting or standing). This is relational. This is deep and important. This is the core of your pain and vulnerability. He should be diving into the work with you right now...into YOUR work right now....not writing a semi-defensive email that’s really all about himself.

I want to say to him... “save the defensive foot-stomping for your own therapy, dude. This is about LT! THIS is the very work she needs to do. Help her look inside and get in touch with that pain and vulnerability- instead of shaming her and scolding her for expressing needs, wants, and desires. Of course you don’t have to stand if you don’t want to (insert eye roll)....it’s not even about that and it’s definitely not about YOU. Put your precious ego back in your pocket. Any decent therapist should immediately recognize the intense pain and fear behind LT’s “demand” and show some authentic empathy, interest, curiosity, support...and a desire/willingness to work WITH those feelings, explore those feelings, invite those feelings into the therapy room....not shame and push them away.”

Ok I’ll shut up now.