[Xynesthesia2]

LT, have you considered taking a break from therapy altogether? Not seeing any for a while? I kinda agree with the comment above that you seem to have relational trauma from therapy and therapists; maybe it started somewhere in your childhood but it's just accumulating with the Ts you choose. It all seems incredibly stressful. If anything sounds being trapped, that is... in my view at least. Stopping it and resolving it may or may never come from therapy - you can easily spend your life "trapped" in all this, going to therapy, from T to T, and your negative impulses and coping methods will not go away. Or you could decide to take a few months away from all these things, at least in practical reality (I doubt you would stop thinking about it anytime soon, but maybe with time) - see how that goes. At least then you would really attempt to change something. This way, just finding yet another T (however different they might turn out, each one is different)... on top other older men who, you know, are your sore spot... I don't know.

There have been a few people on this forum who reported very painful, obsessive, unsatisfying, traumatic experiences with therapists and then tremendous relief when they could finally break free from the whole thing. There have also been some who reported a painful experience with one bad T and relief/resolution with another, better one. The thing is, you seem to get a lot of stress and never real satisfaction from your therapy experiences, at least the ones you talked about on PC. It is more than just one T, one person. You might think now I am suggesting the same as Dr T, that you will keep ending up in a form of the same... and maybe I am. I think no one can accurately predict that, the only thing we can say more confidently is if you give yourself a break from engaging in these things for a while, that has a bigger probability to snap you out of this chain. Then you could reconsider everything with a bit of distance. Or how about maybe finding a group - you seem to like talking with a group here. If it turns out you absolutely cannot cope on your own and really need individual therapy, can always go back... it is not a big risk. But this way you may be giving yourself only some superficial, temporary chances IMO, given your therapy history, not just one isolated, unique experience. If you don't have similar problems in everyday relationships, then what's really the point of "working on it" in therapy? Then it seems to bring out and reinforce a (maybe) latent problem that you can actually manage reasonably well in general outside of therapy.

If you really want to keep though though, I think it is definitely the best to choose someone who has demonstrated training and some real interest in attachment and whatever you want to focus on. Dr T didn't really seem to have the qualifications and very much interest, some curiosity yes, but he resisted it because this thing probably just did not click with his interests and therapy philosophy. Maybe someone psychoanalytical - they would be much more likely to prioritize and encourage the kinds of explorations you seem to want to do, and you obviously like to dissect relational things yourself seemingly endlessly.

T started talking about how I'd do with other therapists. T: "You're either going to be unhappy with the next therapeutic relationship because you'll hit up against their boundaries and it won't be enough. Or else you'll end up in a boundary-blurring relationship like with Ex-MC. Where it's more like an outside relationship."

Huh. I hadn't realised he is a mind-reader, fortune-teller, and time-traveller who has intricate knowledge of all other therapists and their approaches - including the therapist you have yet to choose. A Cassandra of the psychotherapeutic world! I had quite underestimated the fellow.

[stopdog]

Cassandra spoke the truth. Her curse was she gave accurate prophecies that no one believed.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

My objection to him saying that she should avoid any belabored review of their relationship with subsequent therapists was that it did not sound like it was intended in a spirit of helpfulness. The evidence for this is in the comment he made about the future therapist wondering why LT was there and about him having been frustrated over her discussing ex-MC so much (and who is he to be frustrated by that, anyway?). Those two comments were unnecessary. He of all people is well aware that LT worries about what people are thinking and I think it was a roundabout way of suggesting not only did he have thoughts he may have denied to her face, but that future therapists will do the same thing. I think it was an exploitation of LT's insecurity. Again, those claims were likely true, but the way they were made and the timing doesn't reflect well on him because it was done maliciously, in my opinion.

Yes, it is well worth considering all the time that has been invested discussing therapists and therapeutic relationships and what, if anything, is gained by that. But I don't think that was the motivation behind his words. That was an afterthought.

Thanks, Susannah. Your comment on "not only did he have thoughts he may have denied to her face" is one that's particularly bothering me about him. (Not your comment--I mean I had a similar thought.) Because one of his big things with me was that he'd be honest and open with me, and that if something was bothering him, he'd tell me at the time, before it became a big thing. Yet this seems like it was bothering him for a long time (I haven't even talked about ex-MC much in the past year or so). So it makes me wonder what else had been bothering him that he didn't mention.

Plus he talked to me about how I was grieving ex-MC and that it could be a long process, which seemed very validating at the time. Now I feel I'm reframing everything he's said...

And of course I hate his suggesting that the same will happen with another T. Because now I have all these doubts and worries in my mind--well, they'd have been there to some extent anyway. But his comment just intensified them--how is that supposed to help me? Really, many of his comments Monday: How were they therapeutic? How were they supposed to help me? Some did just feel malicious. Like a spurned lover being like, "Good luck finding someone else who will put up with you like I did." It felt personal.

I mean, maybe he was hurt that he put a lot of time in with me and I left in the way that I did. Or frustrated with himself that he wasn't able to help me more lately. But he shouldn't have taken it out on me. Because like you said, he knows my insecurities and vulnerabilities. And that as recently as a couple weeks ago, I was

Possible trigger:

suicidal

. he could have been much kinder in what he said. Especially considering he knew (and said recently) how important he is (was) to me, even though he said that part in a negative way, too. He shouldn't take on clients with insecure attachment issues...(and I was very up front about those in the beginning).

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Cassandra spoke the truth. Her curse was she gave accurate prophecies that no one believed.

Thank you for this information.

I wonder if people said they didnt "understand" her Or would that be some other goddess?

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Thank you for this information.

I wonder if people said they didnt "understand" her Or would that be some other goddess?

Well, in the Agamemnon, the first play of the Oresteia, there’s clearly a language barrier, but the Trojans, her own people, refused to believe her till the city was burning down around their ears. And even then they were probably too busy fighting to think, oh yeah, Cassandra said this was gonna happen.

LT, it’s an obnoxious thing to hear and I think he said it from spite. That doesn’t mean he didn’t identify a pattern you may have about boundaries correctly. I’d just keep it in mind and check in with yourself about it occasionally.

[blackocean]

Maybe this is an issue that will recur but I think therapists should expect certain clients to push up against boundaries and know how to deal with that effectively bc it is something to treat

[unaluna]

LT, are you not seeing an overall general pattern yourself? After summer vacation, you insist, theres a big blow-up, you get upset, they wont apologize... its like a fall groundhog day movie. Yeah? No?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

LT, are you not seeing an overall general pattern yourself? After summer vacation, you insist, theres a big blow-up, you get upset, they wont apologize... its like a fall groundhog day movie. Yeah? No?

Oh, I know there's a pattern, especially with ex-Dr.T. It's partly what led me to be like "OK, I can't keep doing this." I know I had a pattern with ex-MC, too, but it was a bit different in nature. The number of conflicts, ruptures, mini-ruptures, whatever you want to call them with ex-Dr.T seemed really high to me. Especially within 2019. I just don't feel like a therapeutic relationship should be that exhausting. yeah, I know part of it was me, but part of it was him, too.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by blackocean

Maybe this is an issue that will recur but I think therapists should expect certain clients to push up against boundaries and know how to deal with that effectively bc it is something to treat

Yes, ex-MC had told me how it's really common, and very similar to how kids test their parents (from when they're young to teens). To me, it seemed like an opportunity for him to work with me on the source of that. And I said multiple times that it wasn't just about him, that it was a bigger thing. But he seemed to insist that it was mostly about him. So I'd get kinda stuck. Like he didn't want to make therapy about him so much, but then he'd say my reactions were about him...

[LonesomeTonight]

I will add that, with the exception of a couple times when I misunderstood something or he was unclear (like, text to schedule, but he left out the part about "don't explain why you want an extra session"), I did follow the rules. He agreed that I followed his email rules (and phone and texting ones). *He* chose to make some of his boundaries weaker, like opting not to charge me for certain emails he normally would have charged for (or charging me less than the time he spent on it--and this wasn't me insisting, except once over a misunderstanding), responding to an email at an hour later than he normally would have, etc. And it could be said that giving me extra sessions pretty much whenever I requested was sorta loose boundaries. Letting me come in a day earlier and switching around sessions. Giving me a stone even if he didn't feel comfortable doing so. Etc.

In other words, it wasn't just me...he could have opted to be firmer in boundaries and push back more early on. But didn't. Well, except with a couple things. (Let me go with this thought, I need to be able to feel anger at him and not put everything on myself. Yes, I played a role, but so did he.)

[Echos Myron redux]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Cassandra spoke the truth. Her curse was she gave accurate prophecies that no one believed.

What if Narcissus and Cassandra had a child together, and their offspring's prophecies were contaminated by a distorted vision of self?

[unaluna]

You did that with mc at the end too, accusing him of having too loose boundaries. Maybe you are being overly aggressive when you are under the influence, and neither you nor the t is realizing thats what is going on? Then afterwards you rightly innocently disavow, but the damage has been done.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Echos Myron redux

What if Narcissus and Cassandra had a child together, and their offspring's prophecies were contaminated by a distorted vision of self?

Isnt that me?

Originally Posted by stopdog

Cassandra spoke the truth. Her curse was she gave accurate prophecies that no one believed.

... Hence my sarcasm. This is how he seems to perceive himself; as the truth-teller whom LT won't believe. And to clarify - Cassandra could only describe negative prophecies so she could not predict whole versions of the future.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

... Hence my sarcasm. This is how he seems to perceive himself; as the truth-teller whom LT won't believe. And to clarify - Cassandra could only describe negative prophecies so she could not predict whole versions of the future.

Nobody remembers the good stuff anyway. I read that in a book, which quoted it from a book.

Originally Posted by unaluna

Nobody remembers the good stuff anyway. I read that in a book, which quoted it from a book.

I knew it was a risky post, but I had to fulfill my destiny, like Hercules. Sarcasm + mythological references = disgruntled Americans.

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by unaluna

LT, are you not seeing an overall general pattern yourself? After summer vacation, you insist, theres a big blow-up, you get upset, they wont apologize... its like a fall groundhog day movie. Yeah? No?

This is also a great reason to move on, though, isn't it? The client is supposed to unconsciously try to re-enact the past, and the therapist is supposed to know how to work with the patterns and not get sucked into it. Dr. T got sucked in, which, to be fair, is not surprising for a therapist who doesn't work with attachment issues and who took on a client who specifically wants to work on attachment issues. You can blame the client if you want to because she's the one who posts here, but I don't think she was getting what she needed from Dr. T to rework any of this.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

I knew it was a risky post, but I had to fulfill my destiny, like Hercules. Sarcasm + mythological references = disgruntled Americans.

Hey i was just proud of myself for remembering something i read this week in a book!

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

LT - Remember when ex-T left me? T never told me to not talk about ex-T. In fact, not only did she split our initial session half about intake and half about ex-T, but she told me anytime I wanted to talk about ex-T I could. And I still can even with L. Hell, I can talk to L about T and to T about L. There are no limits of what I can and can't talk about and for how long either. I think I talked to T about ex-T for almost 2 years straight. And thanks to her for doing that, I'm much better off.

If a T is going to limit you on what you can and cannot talk about (minus personal information about them) then that's a red flag. You should be able to talk about whatever and whoever you need to so long as it aids in your healing. And I think being in a 2 year relationship with Dr. T requires processing what happened.

Thanks, Scarlet. I agree with this. I think I need to process it. I certainly needed to process the stuff with ex-MC. I think what I may do on Monday is go in and tell M that I think I need to process what happened with Dr.T more before I can really move forward in therapy with him. He'd mentioned wanting to learn more about my marriage in the next session, but I hope he'll understand if I want to talk about this, as it's the more pressing thing in my mind right now. If he doesn't understand or says we need to address other things first...maybe he's not the right choice for me, at least not right now. I certainly understand how with the intake session, he'd need to learn the basics of my background. And we got through a lot of information and discussed some of it. So hopefully we can work on the ex-Dr.T stuff a bit.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

This is also a great reason to move on, though, isn't it? The client is supposed to unconsciously try to re-enact the past, and the therapist is supposed to know how to work with the patterns and not get sucked into it. Dr. T got sucked in, which, to be fair, is not surprising for a therapist who doesn't work with attachment issues and who took on a client who specifically wants to work on attachment issues. You can blame the client if you want to because she's the one who posts here, but I don't think she was getting what she needed from Dr. T to rework any of this.

But shes leaving. And shes the one who is framing it as all these things are happening. Literally like shes framing him. "I wrote this kind of email. I made this kind of demand. He said no." I dont see where he is getting "sucked in". Shes leaving. He said okay bye.

What should he be doing differently? Honestly, i dont get it. I feel like hes just sitting there, and shes hopping around, jabbing at him. Hes not reacting - he is not going to wrestle with her! So she is like, fine im leaving. And he is like, dont let the door hit your butt on the way out. Which may be uncalled for, but so was the jabbing?! Idk. Im truly puzzled.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Oh, I know there's a pattern, especially with ex-Dr.T. It's partly what led me to be like "OK, I can't keep doing this." I know I had a pattern with ex-MC, too, but it was a bit different in nature. The number of conflicts, ruptures, mini-ruptures, whatever you want to call them with ex-Dr.T seemed really high to me. Especially within 2019. I just don't feel like a therapeutic relationship should be that exhausting. yeah, I know part of it was me, but part of it was him, too.

I think there’s still a broader general pattern that links the two. (I’m talking about your part, we can’t hypothesize anything about Dr. T’s part because we don’t have his history. Plus you can only control your part.)

When MC became like Dr. T, the final rupture happened.

When Dr. T refused to be like MC time and again, even when you begged him because you felt sh, the final rupture happened.

Given that most people, wherever they start on the range, will become Dr. T over time in response to having their boundaries pushed, and they may be nice about it or not, that’s the pattern I think should be kept in mind.

Sure, therapists can expect certain clients to push boundaries. That doesn’t mean they have to accept or tolerate it.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by unaluna

But shes leaving. And shes the one who is framing it as all these things are happening. Literally like shes framing him. "I wrote this kind of email. I made this kind of demand. He said no." I dont see where he is getting "sucked in". Shes leaving. He said okay bye.

What should he be doing differently? Honestly, i dont get it. I feel like hes just sitting there, and shes hopping around, jabbing at him. Hes not reacting - he is not going to wrestle with her! So she is like, fine im leaving. And he is like, dont let the door hit your butt on the way out. Which may be uncalled for, but so was the jabbing?! Idk. Im truly puzzled.

Although we never see therapists the same way - I kind of agree.
I don't think anyone is advocating to stay with this particular guy. But I don't see him as doing anything out of what he openly admitted was his way of being a therapist. I don't even see what he said as being mean. That is not the same as saying a client needs to stay with him - choose a different sort and see if it comes out differently. People do what they are going to do until they, for whatever reason, decide to do something different.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

This is also a great reason to move on, though, isn't it? The client is supposed to unconsciously try to re-enact the past, and the therapist is supposed to know how to work with the patterns and not get sucked into it. Dr. T got sucked in, which, to be fair, is not surprising for a therapist who doesn't work with attachment issues and who took on a client who specifically wants to work on attachment issues. You can blame the client if you want to because she's the one who posts here, but I don't think she was getting what she needed from Dr. T to rework any of this.

That's a good point, thanks. It's like he let me reenact the patterns, but then didn't have the insight to go along with it that could help move me forward and get out of the pattern. He just ended up playing into it, likely subconsciously. Then it felt like he was suddenly like, "I'm not playing into this anymore" (like starting with the standing thing), but it's not like we'd done work to get me to move past it. So of course his stopping it hurt.

He can say to me I need to not be looking for him for care (as he mentioned Monday), but if I've been doing that for 2 years...And there were times he said it's OK to feel a connection and to feel attached to him, even a bit dependent. Then suddenly he's going on about how he shouldn't be such an important person in my life (that was the session before the last one)...And Monday, that he's not who I should be getting caring from. It just felt like a sudden shift, without the work in between to prepare me for it. Yeah, I've gotten better at some coping stuff, expanding my social network, talking to H about stuff more, but still...and then for him to say I'm going to have the same issues with any other T...

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

But shes leaving. And shes the one who is framing it as all these things are happening. Literally like shes framing him. "I wrote this kind of email. I made this kind of demand. He said no." I dont see where he is getting "sucked in". Shes leaving. He said okay bye.

What should he be doing differently? Honestly, i dont get it. I feel like hes just sitting there, and shes hopping around, jabbing at him. Hes not reacting - he is not going to wrestle with her! So she is like, fine im leaving. And he is like, dont let the door hit your butt on the way out. Which may be uncalled for, but so was the jabbing?! Idk. Im truly puzzled.

I know it's pointless to debate with you, but it was more the intensity of his reaction to some things lately. Saying he didn't want to be controlled or micromanaged. Saying he felt trapped. Saying he felt what I said was manipulative. Saying he was frustrated with me. So much of that is about *him* and his feelings. Not like, "Oh I wonder what's going on with LT here, let's examine this." It's "How does it affect me?" (referring to Dr. T). If this was a regular relationship, like a friendship, a marriage, family--certainly, he should be sharing his feelings. But it's not. I've often read that part of what you pay a therapist for, besides their time/expertise, is for them to keep their feelings out of it. (Ex-MC often said I didn't have to worry about his feelings, for example, and would say he felt he did something wrong when I did care. Ex-T would say I didn't need to worry about her. K said similarly.) Otherwise, what is it beyond a paid friendship?