[Lrad123]

is childhood emotional neglect considered to be trauma? It doesn’t seem like it to me and it seems the the only person who writes about this online is Jonice Webb who is also very much trying to sell her books so her version of things may be biased. Curious what others think.

[MoxieDoxie]

I believe it is and is one of the factors that can cause complex PTSD.

[ArtleyWilkins]

Absolutely.

Emotional neglect is emotional abuse.

Abuse can be, and often is, traumatic to the recipient of that abuse. I wonder if Complex-PTSD is at times the result of long-term emotional neglect of children. Children are emotional beings. It would make sense.

[Lrad123]

What about emotional neglect related to well-intentioned parents who were caring, but just not in tune with their child’s emotional needs?

[here today]

I'm not a fan of the term, or the books, but I think what it may be referring to, in my life anyway, is a lack of being seen and/or respected as a person, as a separate person, and that can "traumatize" a sense of self. The hurt, burned -- maybe for some folks, beat down -- self or sense of self FEELS traumatized, injured (at least mine does or can, once I finally "got in touch" with it).

Once a self is that hurt, beat down, or injured it can slink away, disappear, or get cut off. (My experience, anyway). Like I locked it away for safekeeping and then threw away the key, so I couldn't open it even if I tried or (stupidly, some part of me felt) wanted to. That way, nobody could see it and hurt it again -- so, in that way, I guess in my case it was related to emotional abuse as well.

But. . .here's the thing again -- my parents, my family COULD DO NO BETTER. I know that, most of the time, they were well-meaning, or as well-meaning as they could get (my father may not have had much in him).

Calling things neglect or abuse puts too much focus on the other person, in my opinion, and not on in getting in touch with the pain and/or the lost self hidden away somewhere.

Yes, when that hurt IS touched or triggered somehow, there is frequently anger, and why not? But that's another topic.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by here today

I'm not a fan of the term, or the books, but I think what it may be referring to, in my life anyway, is a lack of being seen and/or respected as a person, as a separate person, and that can "traumatize" a sense of self. The hurt, burned -- maybe for some folks, beat down -- self or sense of self FEELS traumatized, injured (at least mine does or can, once I finally "got in touch" with it).

Once a self is that hurt, beat down, or injured it can slink away, disappear, or get cut off. (My experience, anyway). Like I locked it away for safekeeping and then threw away the key, so I couldn't open it even if I tried or (stupidly, some part of me felt) wanted to. That way, nobody could see it and hurt it again -- so, in that way, I guess in my case it was related to emotional abuse as well.

But. . .here's the thing again -- my parents, my family COULD DO NO BETTER. I know that, most of the time, they were well-meaning, or as well-meaning as they could get (my father may not have had much in him).

Calling things neglect or abuse puts too much focus on the other person, in my opinion, and not on in getting in touch with the pain and/or the lost self hidden away somewhere.

Yes, when that hurt IS touched or triggered somehow, there is frequently anger, and why not? But that's another topic.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I have really hard time with the word “neglect” because it feels like I’m playing the role of victim. When I look at my experiences with what Jonice Webb calls childhood emotional neglect, I clearly fit her criteria, but I also end up feeling like maybe I was just too sensitive and perhaps shouldn’t have had the response that I did especially since I’m not sure that my brother did.

[stopdog]

I am not all that keen on blaming parents for everything. I think even the most well intentioned parents get things wrong. My own parents were incredibly well intentioned. But one parent at least was completely mis-matched with me. I don't see, for me, what the point would have been in blaming her for anything. (the therapists disagreed with me and constantly used overly emotional/hysterical language to describe things - but even had I agreed with them - I still don't know what difference it would have made)

Originally Posted by stopdog

I am not all that keen on blaming parents for everything. I think even the most well intentioned parents get things wrong. My own parents were incredibly well intentioned. But one parent at least was completely mis-matched with me. I don't see, for me, what the point would have been in blaming her for anything. (the therapists disagreed with me and constantly used overly emotional/hysterical language to describe things - but even had I agreed with them - I still don't know what difference it would have made)

I agree with this 100%.

Nearly a decade of exploring all the ways I had been victimized by my family gave me a ‘poor me’ mentality and a very depressing outlook on my life. All the while my ‘perfect’, ‘good-enough mother’ therapist positioned herself as the emotional salve to all of my childhood wounds.

The biggest game changers in my life (learned post therapy) were discovering my own resiliency, learning to respect myself/holding my own boundaries, and practicing self-care. None of these things had anything to do with excavating my childhood or blaming my parents.

[Lrad123]

I tend to be concerned about blame also, but there’s another recent post of mine where this came up and several others suggested not thinking about it as blame, but just trying to get a better understanding of how your life experiences shaped who you are today. I think that’s valid. I’m just trying to figure out how to do that without it feeling like I’m blaming.

[stopdog]

I never did see the point of it even if one takes blame out of it I tend to believe parents are not the giant overwhelming shapers of a person (in most cases) and the therapists were either crap at explaining what they were getting at with it or refused to explain altogether leaving me frustrated and confused.
But good luck with it if it is something you think will be useful to you.

Originally Posted by Lrad123

I tend to be concerned about blame also, but there’s another recent post of mine where this came up and several others suggested not thinking about it as blame, but just trying to get a better understanding of how your life experiences shaped who you are today. I think that’s valid. I’m just trying to figure out how to do that without it feeling like I’m blaming.

I think there is some value if what happened to you still impacts your life. For example ‘mother issues’ left me vulnerable to over-attachment and exploitation by mother-types. The awareness of my vulnerabilities gave me insights into the types of people and situations I need to avoid.

Logic and some introspection would have accomplished similar results.

[unaluna]

Its not about blaming parents. As i was neglected, I was called a crybaby, so i called other kids a crybaby - if not out loud, then in my head. So im not an empathetic person. They get caring and sympathy from their parents, but my family says thats not needed - so who do i believe? And who do i emulate?

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Its not about blaming parents. As i was neglected, I was called a crybaby, so i called other kids a crybaby - if not out loud, then in my head. So im not an empathetic person. They get caring and sympathy from their parents, but my family says thats not needed - so who do i believe? And who do i emulate?

Maybe we are not using the term blame in the same way. I would say you have a lot of posts where you blame your mother.

But even without blame, I don't understand what difference it would make. One is able to choose differently from one's parents regardless of the parent's consent or ideas around it.

[ArtleyWilkins]

Originally Posted by Lrad123

I tend to be concerned about blame also, but there’s another recent post of mine where this came up and several others suggested not thinking about it as blame, but just trying to get a better understanding of how your life experiences shaped who you are today. I think that’s valid. I’m just trying to figure out how to do that without it feeling like I’m blaming.

I had great parents, but they made some decisions along the way that put me in the position of harm (not in their own hands). I needed to look at those chains of events and work through my own feelings regarding their part (no matter how well intentioned) in those events. I was good at staying in denial that my parents could have made mistakes; I defended them at all costs. But that wasn't realistic, nor was it fair to them to be quite honest. They didn't want to be put on a pedestal of perfection either. (As a parent, I get that now moreso than I did when I was younger.)

I had great parents, but they did some things that truly did affect my concept of self. Because my concept of self was changed through their words and actions, no matter how well intentioned or inadvertent, my life course was altered, my personality was affected. They weren't to blame in any abusive way, but it was important for me to understand the chain of events that led to me being the person I am. Only through truly understanding that was I able to make conscious decisions as an adult about how to proceed with my life.

Exploring my upbringing, warts and all, has given me much more autonomy as an adult. I am no longer at the whim of influences that I refused to really look at. I have my eyes wide open, and I am a conscious actor in my life now. And, that exploration has not wounded my affections for or memories of my parents; I think I see them with clearer eyes and honestly respect them more now than I did before I did this work. It was healing for me.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Maybe we are not using the term blame in the same way. I would say you have a lot of posts where you blame your mother.

But even without blame, I don't understand what difference it would make. One is able to choose differently from one's parents regardless of the parent's consent or ideas around it.

Lets just say, i cant exactly CHOOSE to be the Tiger Woods of empathy. Its not something ive been doing since i was two years old. Im not winning any awards for it. Thats the difference. Thats what neglect does.

[littleblackdog]

Originally Posted by Lrad123

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I have really hard time with the word “neglect” because it feels like I’m playing the role of victim. When I look at my experiences with what Jonice Webb calls childhood emotional neglect, I clearly fit her criteria, but I also end up feeling like maybe I was just too sensitive and perhaps shouldn’t have had the response that I did especially since I’m not sure that my brother did.

This sounds so similar to me. I am currently on a seemingly neverending quest to get some sort of helpful therapy and last week I met with a therapist who said that my parents not meeting my emotional needs was trauma (in response to my saying that I feel like I have no right to be depressed as nothing "bad" has ever happened to me).
I also have a really hard time with this and also am very uncomfortable with the word 'neglect' and its implications. My parents did the best they could and made huge sacrifices for me and my sisters and I don't want to start blaming them for something that was completely unintentional on their part (this is also complicated by the fact that I am still grieving for my Dad).
For me, I know that various factors from my childhood contributed to the way I am now and, while I think they are worth exploring (if I ever manage to get into therapy) I do not want to fall into the trap of just blaming all of my problems on the fact that my parents weren't perfect.

[Anne2.0]

Five years ago there was a study that found kids who experienced emotional abuse (don't think there's much of a line there between emotional neglect and abuse) have the same kinds of mental health struggles as kids who are physically or sexually traumatized. So approached from the lens of how kids are affected, I think the answer is that it is trauma; and I think it makes sense from a developmental perspective because kids depend on their parents for survival.

Personally, I've more recently been acknowledging the emotional neglect from my childhood, and I would distinguish what I experienced from emotional abuse in this way: my parents did not insult me or put me down or more generally try to tear me apart. I have always known they loved me and believed in me and my abilities, despite their epic failures related to my CSA. They were good and supportive parents in a lot of practical ways, and I would not be where I am education and career-wise if not for them.

But the emotional neglect was that nobody could ever tell the truth or talk about what was really going on or what they wanted, or address anything in a straight way, and that continues to this day where family communication feels like everyone's speaking in some freakin' code. And the effect on me was to feel silenced and to be silenced even if this wasn't deliberate on their part, but I have an understanding that it was important to the survival of my family that I be silent about what was going on. And it frustrates me that I can't be honest with my family of origin. But I can figure out how to have relationships with other people where I can tell the truth and have the kind of intimacy I've always wanted. It has been a long road getting here though.

Report on the study:
Childhood Psychological Abuse as Harmful as Sexual or Physical Abuse

[Elio]

I count myself in the group of childhood neglect style of trauma (PTSD?).

As I have also posted, I don't see it as much as blaming my parents as honoring myself and what I experienced. When I talk in terms of my childhood from the perspective of that child, I am able to give voice to what that child felt with complete disregard as to the other people involved. I am able to explore those feelings - and in a way, I'm finally able to say that this was "unfair". Sure, life isn't fair, being able to say x or y was unfair, hurtful, ... or what not and having someone to listen without judging those feelings or thoughts has been helpful for me. Primarily, it has helped me not feel so horrible or selfish for having the feelings/thoughts in the first place. There's been comfort in being heard and being reassured that it wasn't that child's fault that whatever happened. Also, within my therapy, there has been a layer of re-parenting going on around elements of emotional development that are typically implicitly learnt through those attuned moments.

I don't know, maybe I'm not saying it very well. I just don't see myself a victim or have a 'poor me' mentality; even though, I have now been able to voice the ways I have always felt my parents failed in their jobs as being my parents. And maybe that's where the relief is coming from being able to state these thoughts/feelings about people I love and who truly did the best they could, most the time, with what they had, and did/do love me; without hurting them or doing harm to our current relationship.

Sure there are things they could have done better, there are things they still could do that would be more in tune with what I need from them. It is my hope in working through the barriers that my childhood created in me, I will get to a place where I will be able to discuss those issues that cause struggles in the adult level relationship I have with each of my parents. There maybe some value in bringing up some things from my childhood; I do not think there will be much and doubt I'll bring up anything. I think it's more important to work through everything so that they can in essence have a clean slate within our relationship and I can begin to talk to them one adult to another [on triggering topics] rather than still at some level seeing them as my parents and me the unwanted/no longer wanted/invisible child.

ETA: the dynamic of the unwanted/no longer wanted/invisible child plays out for me in other relationships/interactions when a triggering event happens, so getting to where the events of the past are the past and not the present will hopefully change this pattern in me. In this article: Why there's no need to relive the trauma all over again they talked about how processing through "trauma events" helps move the memory from the amygdala to the neocortex so that the brain can start to see the event as part of one's past and not something occurring in the here and now. Those moments with my parents that left me feeling unwanted/no longer wanted/invisible child are my "trauma events" - they are the events that have stuck with me and get evoked in the now as if I was still that child and I respond equivalently, as I did when I was that child.

I'll chime in with a few things here.

I believe in the developmental perspective of object relations, and it has nothing to do with blame.

Trauma is anything that overwhelms the psyche. There's neglect and there's emotional neglect, much of it age/stage dependent. If an infant is lying there for hours and no one picks them up, that's trauma for the infant and your mind develops in a way to cope, which is how your cognitive structure forms, including which defenses your mind uses. This is a big part of how it shapes how you are today, especially your sense of self. Children see things in black and white, and as you might recognize, some adults still do. Children normally resolve that, and can integrate both good and bad aspects of their parents. However, children who experienced trauma will grow up seeing their parents as all good or all bad, which is an ingrained defense (part of your cognitive structure) to protect yourself. You need your parent to be good to be safe or it is overwhelming.

This continuation of that defense as an adult is very common. I've seen this over and over, where a child who is abandoned by their father after a divorce, for example, will still idealize the father and hate the mother who was trying to do right for the child. This therapy changes how your mind works as it integrates the good and bad objects. People also see themselves as all good and all bad-this is common too. And someone with perfectionist tendencies has another version of this, where you can't allow yourself to be 'bad'; when their idealized image of themselves doesn't match the reality, it leads to maladaptive behaviors and emotional distress. Those are thought of as splits. You can also introject the badness of your parent, which is a defense, which manifests as low self worth. These are just a few things.

Emotional neglect can be traumatizing too. For example, if a child is being terrorized, and the parent doesn't tend to a fearful child, that can be traumatizing. A child left in constant fear can be overwhelming, such as being around parents fighting all the time with domestic violence, or feeling in danger.

What here today was talking about really affects your development just as well, though I wouldn't think of that as trauma. When your parents don't see you, or treat you like a separate person (as you said elsewhere-an extension of your parent), it adversely impacts how you relate to yourself, others, and the world. All of this does.

I've had a lot of trauma-emotional, neglect, physical, sexual and do not 'blame' my parents and have always thought they did the best they could too. When I was younger, I believed my trauma made me stronger and a better person. That was before all my experiences were integrated. I was telling my therapist just the other day that i was better off when this stuff was not in my conscious awareness.

It's more cause/effect rather than blame.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

When I was born, my mom got sick right after my birth. She had 9 surgeries in 5 years. I remember her being in hospital a lot. If I put myself in that position with my partner now, he'd probably be worried sick and not be able to properly care for a toddler, my mom has stories about her with baby me being in hospital full of opioids so she also was not in any position of caring correctly on an emotional level for a baby.

There's no 'blame' there. And it's the same for other stuff, a lot of times emotional neglect happens when a parent has issues of their own of some kind. It doesn't mean that this parent was not well-intended, just that something somehow went wrong.

It can still be traumatizing to a child to experience that, even if nobody wanted to hurt anyone. What matters is the reaction to such an event by the child/later adult.

[Omers]

I was emotionally abused as a child by family members as well as neglected by my parents (along with a whole host of other things). I do diferentiate between the emotional abuse and the neglect. The emotional abuse created a false self image and a lot of tapes that run through my head negatively impacting my life the loudest one being you are not good enough. The neglect created anxiety and the self perception that I was too much and behaviors like stockpiling food and a false definition of wants and needs.
Having also been physical and sexually abused I can say for me, without a doubt the neglect and the emotional abuse are much more invasive and harder to heal.
My current T started to do the foundations with me for EMDR to process the multiple traumas in my life. Because of the extreme extent of the neglect by my (well meaning) parents we had to stop. Now he is trying to teach me things an infant is born knowing how to do. The biggest one is asking for things. My parents believed I was just a smart baby/child when I would do things for myself. They never saw the life skills and parenting moments that doing things like changing my diaper or feeding me my bottle taught.

You won't find in-depth information using keyword neglect.

This article has keywords you can use to search. Developmental theories talk about this a lot, your sense of self and psychological boundaries-the impact of not being treated as a separate person by your parents and instead as an extension, which causes the dependency as your mind works as if it is not separate from your T. Working through the transference with a neutral therapist changes that.

Developmental theories

In Object Relations theory, early chronic trauma is seen to disrupt the development of understanding the other as a whole, separate being (whole object relations).47–50 This results in an incomplete psychic separation of the subject (the individual) from the mother/important other (object). The lack of separation implies an inability to develop more than one perspective. Without a relativity of perspective (no dichotomy between the person of the self/subject and the person of the other/object), there can be no relativity of meaning or ability to symbolize. 48 Without a capacity to distinguish ‘me’ from all that is ‘not me’, boundaries between others, between events, and between times become blurred. This is also reflected ‘within’ the person who does not develop a differentiation between the psychic mind, the physical body, emotional life, and cognitive capabilities. Although some parts may develop into working units (the physical body and cognitive elements), they remain disconnected from each other. Other aspects, such as emotions and language around emotions, can then bear the brunt of the trauma and function poorly.

Attachment theorists have borrowed heavily from Object Relations as it describes in depth various relationship types that then set the scene for subsequent problems in adult relationships and dissociative symptoms.31,40,51 Attachments between a caregiver and an infant can be categorized as ‘secure (the infant cries at separation and is quickly comforted at reunion), insecure-avoidant (the infant does not cry at separation and actively avoids the caregiver on reunion), and insecure-ambivalent (the infant cries at separation, but is not easily comforted on reunion)’ (p. 472, original italics).40 When the infant cannot organize according to any coherent pattern, the attachment is classified as disorganized. It is this style, and that of avoidant, that is linked with dissociation in the adult.31 The goal of therapy is the correction of the ‘internal working model’ (p. 483) the individual experienced as a child,40 and developing capacities for secure attachments.13

Psychodynamic psychotherapy for complex trauma: targets, focus, applications, and outcomes

I think using the Complex PTSD keywords may turn up articles that may point you to information you are looking for. There is a ton of stuff online about C-PTSD. Here are also some books some seem to find helpful.

Judith Herman and the Formulation of C-PTSD
Body Keeps Score
Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving

Children growing up as extensions of another are sometimes written about using terms such as covert narcissism, vulnerable narcissism, and codependency.

Tiny Buddha People Pleasers
Boundaries
Caretaker Personality Traits

There are many threads here on books that may be helpful to you.

I favor Object Relations/Developmental Theories as it's the only perspective I found to be in depth and all-inclusive of everything, focusing on transformation rather than primarily on behaviors and attachment. It also includes transference, defenses and psychological boundaries, which C-PTSD doesn't describe or address well. While you can find some through google, you have to read psychodynamic books to learn about it as most articles are not accessible through searches. Unless of course you have access to databases. They are all written by psychoanalysts and referred to as psychodynamic. Here are some.

Psychoanalytic Diagnosis
Healing Developmental Trauma

I found this reading list to be the best source:
Psychodynamic Psychotherapy Essential Reading List

Developmental trauma from a more general perspective:

Developmental Trauma Disorder

I promised you some articles the other day, so there it is.

[here today]

Originally Posted by unaluna

. . . And who do i emulate?

Very good question. Did your therapist or therapists help you find an answer?

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by here today

Very good question. Did your therapist or therapists help you find an answer?

Yes. My last t and i had a series of exchanges where first i would accuse him of sounding exactly like my mother, which he countered with, that no, i sounded exactly like my mother. Through the magic(!) of transference, i came to hear and know myself better.

[Salmon77]

This is an issue for me and like many in this thread, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of "blame"... My thought is to compare it with people who are unable to give their kids the basics for more practical reasons, like money. Some parents have to work long hours so they can't spend time with their children, some parents can't always pay for good food so their children get undernourished. The parents are doing their best and it's not their fault but the children experience the lack anyway. My parents were somewhat the same, they just lacked other kinds of resources (well, sometimes money, too). Not necessarily their fault and maybe it couldn't be helped, but it had an effect and still does, and pretending it didn't happen won't change things for the better.