I hate the rules here about only being supportive. I see things posted here that make my heart twinge - but I can't say, "whoaaaaaa!!!!". I can't say anything helpful when I see things posted that sound dangerous.

Please....just think with the rational part of your brains once in a while????

Ugh. Campy

[Cyran0]

Camp, I don't think "be supportive" means you have to agree with everything being said. You're allowed to have a dissenting opinion. Just try to present the opinion in a constructive way and in a caring manner. Respect is a big part of the dialog, I think.

I think that would fly much better than saying everyone here is failing to think rationally. That's much more hurtful and lacks any kind of direction. Nobody is sure who or what you mean so it just seems like lashing out.

You clearly care, so express yourself.

Cyran0

[ECHOES]

I think it's very possible to disagree or offer other ways of looking at things in responses to posts.

For me, hearing someone else's take on something IS support.

I think that this particular forum is maybe a bit more candid than others. The psychotherapy forum is social sometimes and other times a lot of internal work is done by way of posting here.

I think this isa most interesting forum and I'm glad you posted that you have concerns sometimes when you read some posts. I hope you can find a way to express those concerns that will feel comfortable to you and others.

[Perna]

Supportive can be telling one's own stories where you or a close friend/family member tried "that" and it didn't come out so well :-)

It's very supportive to point out potholes and try to keep people out of trouble you see from your vantage point.

Ummm.....I don't need a lecture on expressing myself in my own thread. I don't think suggesting rational thought is hurtful - it is like suggesting you wear a seat belt. It's a safety issue. Emotional safety.

What makes my heart ache is seeing so many people feeling such love/pain for their T's. I've been there. It is dangerous and unbearably painful at times.

What I see here is people in that same boat ENCOURAGING each other to continue in this manner rather than asking - where is this leading? How much time a day do you think about your T? Is this healthy? Is it helping your mental state? Does it impact your work? Your marriage? Do you sometimes feel obssesed?

Getting into this type of situation myself screwed me up royally. It cost me emotionally and financially. I simply don't want anyone else to suffer.

Campy

[Mouse_]

I think stopping someone else suffering is preventing them from learning their lifes lessons.

[Perna]

Good thing no one can stop someone else's suffering :-)

But your experience of being screwed up is very valuable, Campy and "supportive" in that it's a different experience so gives a wider point of view. There's nothing wrong with telling that and asking questions it's only in being "judgmental" and stating that "everyone" in love with their T's will have the same outcome or experience that you had or should make decisions and deal with it the same or differently than you did.

[april15]

I agree with you and have kept quiet for fear of being "unsupportive". I especially cringe when I read posts that describe therapists' behaviors that encourage unhealthy attachments. And then a bunch of responses from people saying "your T is so great!". I feel it is the therapists' responsibility to have good boundaries. I have experienced the damaging emotional consequences of a therapist without boundaries.

[pachyderm]

On the subject of what therapists should do or be, here is a quote from Harry Stack Sullivan in The Psychiatric Interview. You may or may not agree. This was in the era when psychiatrists listened to people (and were male):

"Thus, insofar as it is possible -- and all of us fail now and then when one of our private interests is touched upon -- the psychiatrist remembers that his role is that of an expert. He tries to keep to this role, no matter what attractive cul-de-sacs the patient may open up to him; if he does take an interest in the interview other than that of a person who is very hard at work in the most difficult of labors -- namely, understanding who somebody else is, what ails him, and what one can do that will be wise and durable in its results -- he recognizes it and regrets it. From beginning to end, to the best of his ability, the psychiatrist tries to avoid being involved as a person -- even as a dear and wonderful person -- and keeps to the business of being an expert; that is, he remains one who, theoretically and in fact, deals with his patients only because he [the psychiatrist] has had the advantage of certain unique training and experience which make him able to help them."

(Starting on page 33 of the Norton paperback edition which I have.)

[krazibean]

i don't fully agree with that quote. i think times have changed and now the relationships we have with our therapists allow better for healing. The fact that they CAN relate and understand makes them more able to understand us, and in turn help us heal. I think the love many of us feel for our T's is very real and very much part of our healing processes. It is actually one of the reasons we are in therapy in the first place! Portraying this love onto the therapist gives them the ability to see it first hand and help us work through our feelings which generally come up in other relationships. It's normal, and i don't think we are "encouraging" any unhealthy behaviors. We just can relate with the affection the poster feels for their T. I don't think not posting comments like "your T is so great" would do anything for the feelings the poster has. Telling them their feelings are wrong or unhealthy would do nothing for them but hurt them, the only person who is capable of relaying that message is their therapist. we are only here to support whatever feelings they have at the time.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Campanula said:

What makes my heart ache is seeing so many people feeling such love/pain for their T's. I've been there. It is dangerous and unbearably painful at times.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Yes it is painful. And yes it can be dangerous if the therapist either does not know how to keep the boundaries OR does not know how to work through this with the patient. However, I also believe it to be an essential part of psychotherapy. How can you learn to love yourself or others if you can't even feel that love towards your therapist? (And when I say 'love' that encompasses a whole complexity of feelings).

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
What I see here is people in that same boat ENCOURAGING each other to continue in this manner rather than asking - where is this leading? How much time a day do you think about your T? Is this healthy? Is it helping your mental state? Does it impact your work? Your marriage? Do you sometimes feel obssesed?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Let's just clarfiy that this is not EVERYBODY. Just because it happened in one situation, does not mean it happens in every situation. For example, yesterday my T and I discussed my desire to sexualize the relationship with him in order to normalize it. There were other comments that were made that I would never share on PC just for the simple reason that things often get misconstrued on here-- you and all the others here were not at my session, so how would you know how it is taken?

I believe there is a big piece missing in this post. There is nothing wrong with encouraging these feelings. They are FEELINGS and should never be stopped-- only worked through. It is up to the therapist to be appropriate. Unless you are seeing somewhere in the posts, that a therapist is being inappropriate, I really do not understand.

What is unheathy attachment? Maybe some people could tell me I have an "unhealthy attachment" to my T because of the feelings I have towards him and my dependency on him. But when I am feeling out of my mind every single day during the week while trying to manage a full work and school schedule and he allows me to call each day and he helps me get through the day alive, then I would say my attachment is working pretty well. I trust him. And that's a pretty big thing.

The moral of my post is that the patient can feel whatever he/she wants. I know I have felt and stil do feel almost every intense feeling possible towards my T-- love, hate, jealousy, pain, sexual attraction, intimidation, admiration, trust, mistrust, endearment, attachment, etc.-- and I have shared every single one of these things with him in some capacity-- and never ONCE has he handled any of these emotions inappropriately.

I am sorry for whatever happened to make you feel this way, Campy. But I believe strongly in the necessity of erotic transference in the therapeutic relationship. I believe it is essential. I just don't want anyone to think it is wrong to feel this way towards their therapist. So many people have never experienced this before and it is new and scary to them.

These feelings should be worked through with the therapist and it is up to the T to handle him/herself appropriately. I know mine does.

[Perna]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Campanula said:
rather than asking - where is this leading? How much time a day do you think about your T? Is this healthy? Is it helping your mental state? Does it impact your work? Your marriage? Do you sometimes feel obssesed?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Those are very valid, important questions; why do you not ask them? There is nothing unsupportive in asking genuine questions. It is only in believing one knows the answers for another person that harm can come.

If you are curious about where I believe my relationship with my T is going or if I am sure/feel my relationship with my T is healthy, etc. that is one thing; but asking what amounts to rhetorical questions, not being curious about the other person and their experiences but trying to suggest a certain answer, that is not supportive of the other person. Encouraging me to ask these questions of myself is good; suggesting you know the answers to these questions for me is incorrect. Only I know or can find/determine the answers to questions that I am asked.

If I have had what I believe to be a similar experience with my T that you relate to having with yours (and I was sexually abused by a T so I know about poor boundaries) and think your T is "great" or not so great, I can agree with your experience or tell my opposite experience so you are aware of it but when someone else does that with you, I do not want to fall into the trap of then making experience an either/or, black and white thing! Not all hugs by therapists of any client are boundary crossing and bad! Not all experiences that I relate as I see them are necessarily the way the therapist sees them or even as they are! My "love" of my therapist may be a fantasy in my own head. I have loved my therapist intensely as others relate having done and my therapy with that particular therapist turned out extremely well, if I do say so :-) I was sexually abused by a therapist but ultimately did not come to harm from that experience. That is not to say all therapists should sexually abuse clients and boundary cross willy-nilly! That is just to say that my experience worked out well for me in the end.

[Kiya]

perhaps it is like my t says; we are mirrors to each other.

[Cyran0]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Campanula said:
Ummm.....I don't need a lecture on expressing myself in my own thread. I don't think suggesting rational thought is hurtful - it is like suggesting you wear a seat belt. It's a safety issue. Emotional safety.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I wasn't trying to lecture you. Your original post stated very clearly that you weren't saying certain things and I was trying to encourage you to do so while simultaneously pointing out ways to keep it within the forums rules (your stated problem).

And no, suggesting rational thought is not in itself hurtful when done in a specific context. However your original post had an indignant tone that could be taken as hurtful when you also consider that you hadn't made it clear who or what you were talking about. The implication becomes everyone here is irrational (except you).

So whatever, I was trying to help. Now I wish I hadn't. I wont post in your thread again.

Cyran0

i agree with Pink.. my T says that whatever i feel is not *wrong* in any way, it just is. Feeling love or attachment or whatever just is what it is. He says that feelings need to be explored and sometimes there will be a goal of diminishing the effect of some feelings on my life.

i am not in love romantically with this T... but i was with my last T and it was very painful. But it was a missed opportunity as well. Due to the structure of the sessions, capped number etc.. we never explored those feelings. It was not rocket science at the time to figure out how i came to feel that way and i could see the logic in them being based on something else and not on the T himself... afterall, i knew nothing about him as a person outside of session.

i happen to believe that boundaries are variable from T to T and client to client. i also firmly believe in some disclosure on the part of a T, for some clients i think this is a strong positive benefit. For others it might be an issue.. the T needs to make those assessments.

i believe that love is a many shaded thing. i want to learn how to love and be loved, care and be cared for. What better place to do that? i seriously envy those who have a firm confirmation of love or caring from their T. i do not have the same feeling about people who have T's who hug them, even though i think it's an ok thing to do for some clients.

oh so variable...

why not post about your own experiences? why not just make a thread that talks about the negative impact that you felt? It would exist as a different kind of experience for everyone to read and people can see and choose which sort of experience best mirrors their own. i think that would be very supportive, get your opinion across and wouldn't be judgemental of what others choose. And in threads in which you don't share the same opinions you can still say "i have a different point of view" without saying "you're wrong" or something else judgemental.

you can also put posters on ignore and just not feel triggered by their ideas and feelings.

i am sorry you had such a bad experience... a bad experience with strong transference is so painful.

[krazibean]

agreed Pink, Perna, and MZ. Very well put.

This is why I haven't posted like this before. Because I'm told:

1) I should not want to prevent suffering. Huh?

2) I used the word "everyone" - where? Not everyone has this experience.

3) I am judgemental. In giving an opinion based on experience - this is judgemental?

4) I am trying to hurt people.

5) My questions are rhetorical. No, they are not. I don't know the answers for everyone.

6) Oh yeah, I'm judgemental.

People get very defensive on this topic - I sure did when I was in the midst of it too.

I have posted about my experiences, here and elsewhere. It seems that people don't want to hear it.

Therapists are friends we have to pay. I value the free ones much more cuz they stick around even when you can't pay.

What would happen if you could no longer pay your therapist?

For me, after 7 years, he stopped taking insurance. So, it's over. He is the only person I ever told about my abuse. He is the only person who knows me. SEVEN years.

So, I worry about you guys. The trend in not accepting insurance is growing quickly. I worry. It seems like the erotic transference is worst for CSA survivors. I don't know why. So I worry especially about them.

Campy

I actually pay my therapist on a sliding fee scale, no insurance involved.

Also, therapists aren't friends you pay. They aren't friends. Therapists are therapists. If anyone considers their therapeutic relationshp to be one of friendship, then that is a problem right there. As for me, I come from the school of though that erotic transference is an absolutely necessary part of therapy. So there is no worry there for me. For me, it means that my therapy is taking the right course.

Regardless, I am so sorry about your experience. That is absolutely horrifying. I wish that you didn't have to get hurt like that.

[sidony]

I have to jump in that I don't consider my therapist a friend. He's a nice guy, but he's a mentor or teacher or something like that to me. Not my friend, though he is friendly. It's distinctly different for me.

Campanula, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience in therapy, that's awful!

I can't remember when I last read the forum's rules. And I'm not sure what threads you felt like you couldn't say anything on. But I don't think it's unsupportive to have a different opinion!!! I think it's only unsupportive if you insist that another person's experience or outcome or reaction to therapy will be the same as your own. All therapists and all patients are different!

For me, I feel a lot of love for my T. I think about him often. It definitely impacts my work, my life, etc. For me, this is extremely helpful. I learn from him, I remember his suggestions, I use them to improve my life, etc. I expect I will feel less attached to him when I'm stronger on my own. For now I don't mind feeling dependent on him.

Sidony

[sidony]

P.S. Oh yeah, my therapist doesn't take insurance either. I'd agree that most of them are getting away from doing so. But many of them will work with people. Mine offered me a reduced rate when I lost my job. Fortunately I found work again before I had to take him up on that. But I would have had it been necessary. I bet a lot of them have sliding scales.

[MissCharlotte]

Okay here goes.

Given that in the last few days there were 3 posts with "love" in the title in this forum, and I was one of the authors, I figured I should jump in.

Campanula, I am so sad for the painful way that your relationship with T ended. It sounds awful.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
rather than asking - where is this leading? How much time a day do you think about your T? Is this healthy? Is it helping your mental state? Does it impact your work? Your marriage? Do you sometimes feel obssesed?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I would like to answer your questions.

1. This relationship is hopefully leading to my integration as a whole person who can function productively and independently.

2. I think about my T all day long. Yes it's very healthy. I have conversations with him in my head. It's called internalization. It took forever for me to get here and I'm not giving it up anytime soon.

3. My mental state is a whole lot better than it was before T.

4. It has helped my work and improved my marriage. I am now employed full time--was afraid to go to work before--and I am more tolerant, more loving and more accepting of my husband. I always loved him but now I am better at validating his feelings and knowing how to separate my adult feelings from those of my childhood

5. Yes, sometimes I feel obsessed. I hope to explore these feelings with T and search for meaning that is relevant to my life.

As far as boundaries are concerned, my T has very strong boundaries, he has assured me of this and I have told him how safe his boundaries make me feel.

Without the component of love, I would not be able to heal. Without love, we are simply changing behaviors, but not the true self. It is my opinion that love is an essential component to the alliance. Transference, erotic transference---yes, the whole package is necessary---that is why it is also essential that T's have experienced psychotherapy themselves, have strong boundaries and a strong sense of ethics.

Then they can reflect our feelings for us and open up the path to healing on a deep level.

Oh, and my T is not in my plan so I get a reduced reimbursement. I also see him more often than the plan pays and I pay that out of pocket.

I would give up Cable TV, Telephone, hmmm (electricity?-maybe)
for therapy. My life depends on it.

Peace

[gardenergirl]

Getting clobbered with others' defenses is no fun, especially when your motive is heartfelt. It's interesting to see what got projected into your words, campy, just in this thread. That's a big part of whey I tend not to post much (here and other places) anymore. I'm just not up to the beaning--especially if I'm not getting paid to withstand it.

But I suppose it's a part of the process for many. Defenses wouldn't be there if they didn't serve a purpose in that moment.

Stay centered, warm, and true.

Take care,

gg

[krazibean]

campy, i'm not sure what you want us to do. just because you had a bad experience and had to stop therapy right in the middle of healing, you want us to "think with the rational part of our brain" and not get close with our therapist? If i listened to that advice, i'd sit in therapy with a wall between us. I wouldn't say anything for us to connect well for fear of getting close, and in turn having feelings of admiration, love, and everything you seem to think is wrong. That is not something that would work. The fact that you got close to your therapist is not what hurt you, its the fact that it stopped. These feelings are typically worked through, not worked on being prevented. You got defensive just because people were not agreeing with you and weren't changing their feelings, so don't get upset at everyone else for being defensive. We understand your experience, and are sorry for it, but it won't change how anyone of us feels towards our therapist. And even if it did, that would be wrong, because again, these feelings are crucial to the healing process, just like it is crucial to finish the process.

[MissCharlotte]

I hardly think that answering someone's questions is clobbering them with defenses.

However, explaining one's loving therapeutic relationship may very well be defending one's freedom of choice in the type of therapy to engage in.

There are many ways to heal. There is no "right" answer for any one person...

I am reminded of a Robert Frost poem:

TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth; 5

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same, 10

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back. 15

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

[chaotic13]

Campy
I like the fact that you stated your opinion. I welcome your comments on any of my posts. If I don't like what you say, I'll politely state my divergent opinion. People reading can judge for themselves which perspective, is better-- if either.

I was totally new to therapy when I first logged on. A lot of what I've read here I would have never even considered myself. Which is why I likely stayed. A lot I don't agree with, some I agree with for a while then change my mind later when I get more info or experience it for myself.

I think we all have to individually judge the value of the opinions shared on this forum. When I read something that I question, I simply remind myself that we are not a random sample of the global population conversing about therapy here on PC. This group is very biased in ways I can't even imagine.

In general I think most people on this thread are pretty good about being constructive when posting alternative views and most are offering their opinion because they want to help someone not hurt them.