[LonesomeTonight]

Thanks, everyone, for your comments. I was out last night, so I just read through them all. One general thought I had, which suggests some shift in me, is that I used to feel rather defensive in reading people's comment, whether the comment was more about me or my T. And I found this time, reading through them, instead of immediately shifting into defensive mode, I was more like, "hm, that's an interesting point, maybe I should think on it more." Perhaps Dr. T has helped me to increase my tolerance for feedback from everyone except him!

[Echos Myron redux]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

I have come out of retirement to comment on this because it's something I've experienced, and maybe it will help you to hear.

Like others have said, this guy is not the therapist for the kind of work you're looking for from him. Those kind exist, and they would love to use the therapeutic relationship as a laboratory for seeing how you do life, but it's not just having someone hold all your feelings for you and be gushy. It's painful, hard work, fraught with shame attacks and fear. It's not all about what other people have done wrong. The past is a launching pad for how you experience life now. Some kinds of therapy help you get interested in finding ways as an adult to be more functional and happy with yourself. In relational therapy, you can show up and accuse the therapist of talking too harshly (maybe they did) or being dismissive (probably were)--they don't get defensive, though, they get curious and that makes you curious, and pretty soon you metabolize all those unbearable feelings and come up with a different approach for yourself--and you do that over and over and over and over again. The trust has to be there that they aren't going to walk away when you have a shame attack and freak out, that they're going to stick it out until you can put out the fires in your brain. It's looking deeply at how you experience things and being curious about that. Sure, you can look at the "why" but that gets old, especially once you know the why.

What I see in you is a need to manage other people's feelings, to make sure they don't feel too much or feel in a way that makes you uncomfortable--all coming from a need you may have to also not feel too much in yourself. That's something to be curious about and to wonder if it's working for you the way it did with a child brain. Would your life feel more doable if you let other people have their feelings and you learned to be okay with yours? That's the kind of thing digging deeper can start with, but your therapist doesn't work that way. His way can work for some. It's very practical.

I can clearly feel your pain when your therapist doesn't say or do the exact thing you need in order to feel okay. In all honesty though, that's a hamster wheel approach to life. Let's say he messed up and did virtual on a day that you thought was in person? That would feel awful--all kinds of feelings would flood you. Rejection, abandonment, fears of all kinds...lots of great material to work with if you had the right therapist. But I have a feeling with this therapist it would be weeks of you going over exactly what he did wrong and how it hurt you and was like your parents treatment of you (or fill in the blank). Instead, a relational therapist might lead you to finding ways to survive those feelings and carry on, to not be led by fears and fear of feeling things.


All that aside, you might do really well with EMDR. I've had great success with it, even though I was pretty sure it was going to be useless. My therapist (a different one than I had when I used to post here) is full on relational and I can't stand it. She says I limit what we can get to and that's right. I have specific things I'm there for, and that's all I want to work on. It's been really successful for me.


With EMDR, you could work on any number of triggering events--things with your daughter, your husband, past therapists, your mother (who is sounds like also tries to manage other people's feelings).


Anyway, just wanted to weigh in because I recognize your stuckness and want you to be able to live a great life, not being batted around by what other people say or do. It's very freeing.


btw, Have you watched Couples Therapy on Showtime? The therapist is a rare type--smart, bold and honest.

Sorry this is off topic LT, but it's really nice to see you Ruh Roh.

[Quietmind 2]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Perhaps Dr. T has helped me to increase my tolerance for feedback from everyone except him!

Okay, I laughed because I can see myself saying that about my T sometimes!

An occasional feature in my therapy is me saying frustratedly to my T "I don't have X issue with people in my life, except with you!"

[smileygal]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks, everyone, for your comments. I was out last night, so I just read through them all. One general thought I had, which suggests some shift in me, is that I used to feel rather defensive in reading people's comment, whether the comment was more about me or my T. And I found this time, reading through them, instead of immediately shifting into defensive mode, I was more like, "hm, that's an interesting point, maybe I should think on it more." Perhaps Dr. T has helped me to increase my tolerance for feedback from everyone except him!

This is a positive LT. I wonder why this might be? Do you feel more secure in yourself?In the therapy relationship? I know in my therapy it can sometimes be hard to notice those smaller shifts and get caught up in the fact the bigger things are still repeating but they may take more than than we want. I have noticed I am becoming more sure of myself. Less caring of what others other than those I really care about think although do still value others perspectives on things for sure.

[Rive.]

it's like he thinks if he tells me enough times that he's irritated and then things are OK, I will suddenly just accept it, without other work being done on it.

Yah, it's not the way he works LT. He doesn't have the appropriate training for what it seems you are looking for. In these circumstances, I think these clashes will keep happening. He is not able to give you what you need - i.e. a T with a different modality who would want to go deep, who would understand that reactions in the present and/or their intensity may have roots in the past etc.

I think he is trying but like I wrote before, it's like you are speaking different languages. It would be like trying to get blood out of a stone - he just can't do it (or he will mess up, stumble, have conflicts and then possibly learn from you)

What he is saying is very true: he is trying to 'teach' you that being irritated or angry etc does not break a relationship. But you are not 'receiving' it because his approach is more realistic-tough love or 'superficial'. His training is just not there (for what it feels you need).

[ElectricManatee]

I was just thinking about how he said that he's only ever referred one person to another therapist. I think that in itself shows that he isn't able to determine when he doesn't have the appropriate skillset to help somebody. There is no way he was adequately qualified to treat every person who has come to him in all the years he has been practicing.

[LonesomeTonight]

Sorry for the lack of replies! I had a pretty intense session with him today that addressed some of what was talked about here. I shared a lot of what I was feeling and think there may have been a breakthrough of sorts He seemed to think so, too, though we didn't use those words. From him: "It's the first time you've actually come out and said that you don't want to be reacting this way, that you want help to change." Will reply more later.

[smileygal]

Hhmm, maybe a response from me here is required but going to share my thoughts again anyway since it is a thread and you are open to discussion.

I don't know the rest of the story behind this comment so I may very well be off base but it actually irked me a little. Like yes of course it is positive to hear a client say they want to change something explicitly but you are in therapy because you want to change things.

He seems to place a lot of the onus on you and your response. I mean yes you are the one in therapy sure so he should be examining that and not himself in your therapy but a personal peeve of mine which doesn't happen in my own therapy is the lack of discussion around how the dynamic works and how two people are interacting within that dynamic all the time.

The two things that jumped out from me when you mention him giving you feedback or correcting you are they are off things that he initially created and then changed. Like the emails. I may be misremembering a bit but he put them out there as a thing you could do and then they started to get a bit much. To me by doing that he is sending you the message implicitly that you are being too much (I'm not saying you are) but verbally then saying you aren't. That would be confusing to me.

I don't know I'm waffling now but if just seems some of the feedback he gives would sting me too but I know it's because of my own trauma and rejection and abandonment issues. Wounds like that can be deep and it is understandable that people respond in certain ways when they are wounded like that. I don't know if him repeating and old wound and then just expecting you to react different because you want to or 'know' you should the way.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by smileygal

Hhmm, maybe a response from me here is required but going to share my thoughts again anyway since it is a thread and you are open to discussion.

I don't know the rest of the story behind this comment so I may very well be off base but it actually irked me a little. Like yes of course it is positive to hear a client say they want to change something explicitly but you are in therapy because you want to change things.

Thanks for your comments. Honestly, it kind of bothered me, too. Like, of course I'm here to change things! His comment came about because I said I felt like on Friday and Sunday he was being critical of how my mind works. And today I said, "But I don't want to be this way. I don't want to be reacting so strongly when people are critical. Can you help me figure out how to change that?" (This was through tears.)

He seems to place a lot of the onus on you and your response. I mean yes you are the one in therapy sure so he should be examining that and not himself in your therapy but a personal peeve of mine which doesn't happen in my own therapy is the lack of discussion around how the dynamic works and how two people are interacting within that dynamic all the time.

The two things that jumped out from me when you mention him giving you feedback or correcting you are they are off things that he initially created and then changed. Like the emails. I may be misremembering a bit but he put them out there as a thing you could do and then they started to get a bit much. To me by doing that he is sending you the message implicitly that you are being too much (I'm not saying you are) but verbally then saying you aren't. That would be confusing to me.

Yes, and this is something that has also been an issue for me in the past with T's (and other people) in my life--and he knows this, as we talked about it a lot early on regarding my former marriage counselor (ex-MC) and a bit with ex-T.

He was saying today again that he let me know as soon as it was bothering him (well, he waited a session because I was really struggling with an outside issue, so he didn't think it was an appropriate time). So it wasn't a big deal for him. That he even tries to let me know earlier on than he would tell other clients because he knows it's a concern for me that things have been bothering someone for a while and they haven't said something.

I did say today with the check-in texts that it seemed like he just expected me to psychically know when they became too much for him. How it was particularly difficult for me because it was something I had even checked in about. That's been an issue in my outside life, too, if I check in with, say, a friend or my H on whether something is OK, they say it's fine, and then at some random time they suddenly decide it's not fine, and I had no way of knowing that. It's harder for me because I did try to make sure it was OK.

I don't know I'm waffling now but if just seems some of the feedback he gives would sting me too but I know it's because of my own trauma and rejection and abandonment issues. Wounds like that can be deep and it is understandable that people respond in certain ways when they are wounded like that. I don't know if him repeating and old wound and then just expecting you to react different because you want to or 'know' you should the way.

It helps to know some of it would sting me, too. And I also have some trauma and abandonment issues. I think I got through to him more today in what it can feel like for me. I had made this comment on Friday while he was being critical that I felt like I just wanted to jump out the window. At the time, he didn't really say anything, and I quickly changed it to "I wish I could throw my brain out the window and get a new one."

Today, I mentioned that comment--prefacing it with my fear that it would sound manipulative (he's called something I said that in the past)--and said it was the sort of thing where he could choose to explore it, like, "So what is going on with you here? What is making you feel that way?" He nodded. I said how in that moment, it was that the shame felt so unbearable that I wanted to just disappear. I think maybe he got it a little more then?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Quietmind 2

Mhm, and I'd like to add that I feel there's ethical ways for a therapist to tell a client they need more than what the therapist can offer, even if it hurts the client to hear that.

That includes appropriate referrals if they can't or don't want to train to expand their scope of practice, in order to become what the client needs.

Not that I'm completely agreeing with Dr T, because I feel there's probably better ways for him to be less...shaming...?

My first therapist was harmful in just a handful of sessions in ways I still struggle with today, but the best thing he did for me was to refer me on, second thing being that he told me why although he kept it vague.

He said I needed a higher level of care due to my psychological and emotional issues, and made a referral.

My subsequent therapist was a clinical psychologist who also recognised the limit of her scope of practice.

I do agree that they can tell clients this, and it's probably best to do so early on. With Dr. T, I tried to make it very clear that I'd likely have some sort of transference for and/or attachment to him, and that if he couldn't deal with that, I'd prefer him to let me know early on. At one point, maybe 6 months or a year in, when he seemed bothered by it, it especially upset me because I had warned him. He could have just sent me elsewhere in the beginning.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

I have come out of retirement to comment on this because it's something I've experienced, and maybe it will help you to hear.

Hi Ruh Roh, nice to hear from you! How are you doing?

Like others have said, this guy is not the therapist for the kind of work you're looking for from him. Those kind exist, and they would love to use the therapeutic relationship as a laboratory for seeing how you do life, but it's not just having someone hold all your feelings for you and be gushy. It's painful, hard work, fraught with shame attacks and fear. It's not all about what other people have done wrong. The past is a launching pad for how you experience life now. Some kinds of therapy help you get interested in finding ways as an adult to be more functional and happy with yourself. In relational therapy, you can show up and accuse the therapist of talking too harshly (maybe they did) or being dismissive (probably were)--they don't get defensive, though, they get curious and that makes you curious, and pretty soon you metabolize all those unbearable feelings and come up with a different approach for yourself--and you do that over and over and over and over again. The trust has to be there that they aren't going to walk away when you have a shame attack and freak out, that they're going to stick it out until you can put out the fires in your brain. It's looking deeply at how you experience things and being curious about that. Sure, you can look at the "why" but that gets old, especially once you know the why.

It helps to hear this description of relational therapy. I know early on, Dr. T had said that maybe I did just want a warm, fuzzy T. And I suppose I thought that's what a relational or humanistic T was, someone who would just validate and accept me, without really challenging me. And I was afraid that would ultimately be a negative for me, because how would that push me? And why would I ever want to leave that environment? So I thought the challenge from Dr. T was good in a way for me. But helps to know a relational T will challenge as well.

What I see in you is a need to manage other people's feelings, to make sure they don't feel too much or feel in a way that makes you uncomfortable--all coming from a need you may have to also not feel too much in yourself. That's something to be curious about and to wonder if it's working for you the way it did with a child brain. Would your life feel more doable if you let other people have their feelings and you learned to be okay with yours? That's the kind of thing digging deeper can start with, but your therapist doesn't work that way. His way can work for some. It's very practical.

I hadn't really considered that maybe it's ultimately about trying to not feel too much in myself. As a kid, I was taught that negative emotions (anger, sadness) were bad. I've certainly been able to connect with sadness, but I still struggle with anger. So I guess it would make total sense that if I didn't want to feel anger in myself, I wouldn't want others to be angry at me. Maybe if I could become more OK with my own anger (at others, rather than at myself), then I could handle it better coming from others toward me? Or even not as big as anger, but "irritation," which is what Dr. T keeps referencing.

I can clearly feel your pain when your therapist doesn't say or do the exact thing you need in order to feel okay. In all honesty though, that's a hamster wheel approach to life. Let's say he messed up and did virtual on a day that you thought was in person? That would feel awful--all kinds of feelings would flood you. Rejection, abandonment, fears of all kinds...lots of great material to work with if you had the right therapist. But I have a feeling with this therapist it would be weeks of you going over exactly what he did wrong and how it hurt you and was like your parents treatment of you (or fill in the blank). Instead, a relational therapist might lead you to finding ways to survive those feelings and carry on, to not be led by fears and fear of feeling things.

So, that's kind of something that came up today. Where he said in the past I might have just focused on what he did that upset me. But today I was talking about how I didn't want to have that reaction anymore and wanted his help to change. And (this repeats something in another post), he said it was the first time I'd really said that out loud, that I wanted to change my reaction. I think he partly meant that I was recognizing that my reaction was at least a big part of the issue, rather than what Dr. T (or someone else in my life) did.

All that aside, you might do really well with EMDR. I've had great success with it, even though I was pretty sure it was going to be useless. My therapist (a different one than I had when I used to post here) is full on relational and I can't stand it. She says I limit what we can get to and that's right. I have specific things I'm there for, and that's all I want to work on. It's been really successful for me.
With EMDR, you could work on any number of triggering events--things with your daughter, your husband, past therapists, your mother (who is sounds like also tries to manage other people's feelings).

I'm glad EMDR has helped you. You're not the only one here mentioning, as you can see, so maybe it's something to look into again (I didn't want to pursue it while most therapists were virtual). And it is a case where Dr. T has said he'd be OK with my seeing a therapist for EMDR while I saw him (obviously I'd be seeing him less), or to take a break from him to do that (maybe not right now, but sometime by year's end).

And you're absolutely correct with my mom. She still does that, try to manage people's feelings.

Anyway, just wanted to weigh in because I recognize your stuckness and want you to be able to live a great life, not being batted around by what other people say or do. It's very freeing.

Thanks, I appreciate that. And "stuckness" is a good word!

btw, Have you watched Couples Therapy on Showtime? The therapist is a rare type--smart, bold and honest.

I did actually watch the first season and the pandemic episode and found it to be really interesting. Maybe it's time to pay for another month of Showtime and catch up (there were multiple seasons, right?)

[smileygal]

Sorry feel like I'm taking over a bit here now but some more thoughts

Few thoughts on this

I did say today with the check-in texts that it seemed like he just expected me to psychically know when they became too much for him. How it was particularly difficult for me because it was something I had even checked in about. That's been an issue in my outside life, too, if I check in with, say, a friend or my H on whether something is OK, they say it's fine, and then at some random time they suddenly decide it's not fine, and I had no way of knowing that. It's harder for me because I did try to make sure it was OK.

I have this issue too. When you go out of your way not to do something i.e actively try not to annoy someone or overstep a boundary and then 'bam't they say that you have or did it can be incredibly painful. Far more so than someone who wasn't thinking too much about it in the first place I imagine.

For me I think it's more than just an inability to take criticism or be told something you did is or was annoying. When I was a child these were literally what saved me and kept me safe. My ability to read situations, people, keep under the radar, not annoy people. It became who I was I guess someone I at some point ended up being tied to my self worth as a person. There is also a lot of fear attached to it as that is why it was created in the first place. For someone to come along then and give 'feedback' to you about 'you' like that as if they are correcting your spelling mistakes and not understand then why you are reacting how you are reacting is just plain missing the mark here. Some of the things he says do sound very shaming even if he is not directly meaning to do that. Reading your posts it;s like he is often implying there is something 'wrong' with you.

[stopdog]

Why would you hire a therapist if something wasn't wrong with you?

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Why would you hire a therapist if something wasn't wrong with you?

The scintillating conversation?

[smileygal]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Why would you hire a therapist if something wasn't wrong with you?

I'm afraid we don't view things that same way. and that's okay. I imagine many others here would agree with you. I don't particularly want to get into it and highjack the thread more off my ramble about why I think that way. We are all imperfect human beings.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by smileygal

Sorry feel like I'm taking over a bit here now but some more thoughts
Few thoughts on this
I have this issue too. When you go out of your way not to do something i.e actively try not to annoy someone or overstep a boundary and then 'bam't they say that you have or did it can be incredibly painful. Far more so than someone who wasn't thinking too much about it in the first place I imagine.

For me I think it's more than just an inability to take criticism or be told something you did is or was annoying. When I was a child these were literally what saved me and kept me safe. My ability to read situations, people, keep under the radar, not annoy people. It became who I was I guess someone I at some point ended up being tied to my self worth as a person.

Yeah ive been told im being manipulative when i try to avoid these accusations by preloading the situation so to speak. You cant have it where you are perfect and always anticipating and trying to cancel out the other person's response. How is that a fair adult relationship? Its not, its childish. I never do anything wrong.

Like smileygal said, it kept us alive at one point. I learned how to not tick my mother off. I learned to stop asking for whatever it was - memorably a kiss on the cheek when she left for work. Somebody getting really ticked at me still works to motivate me. Its about the only thing that does.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Why would you hire a therapist if something wasn't wrong with you?

Ha ha. There are two ways of interpreting that. SD, you sly dog, you.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Yeah ive been told im being manipulative when i try to avoid these accusations by preloading the situation so to speak. You cant have it where you are perfect and always anticipating and trying to cancel out the other person's response. How is that a fair adult relationship? Its not, its childish. I never do anything wrong.

I'm not sure it's necessarily childish, but it's sort of a losing battle. Dr. T said recently how you can try to follow all of someone's "rules" (a term I've used), but you're still going to bump up against each other at some point because you're human. There's no realistic way to avoid conflict with everyone--unless maybe all your relationships are with conflict-avoidant people, and there there will still end up being conflicts at times--then they're more likely to be big blowups, because the person kept an issue(s) inside until it became a huge deal.

Like smileygal said, it kept us alive at one point. I learned how to not tick my mother off. I learned to stop asking for whatever it was - memorably a kiss on the cheek when she left for work. Somebody getting really ticked at me still works to motivate me. Its about the only thing that does.

I do think they're survival tactics in some way. For me, mainly to avoid rejection and abandonment, I'd say. To get approval. Etc.

[smileygal]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Ha ha. There are two ways of interpreting that. SD, you sly dog, you.

Would love to know the other way? Do share...

Yeah ive been told im being manipulative when i try to avoid these accusations by preloading the situation so to speak. You cant have it where you are perfect and always anticipating and trying to cancel out the other person's response. How is that a fair adult relationship? Its not, its childish. I never do anything wrong.

Ya I was quite defensive when I first heard it was a form of manipulation as manipulative as such a negative connotation to it but it's true. We are trying to get someone to act or feel a certain way' even if we think it's for the right reasons. With awareness and and the development of a greater sense of self it has improved.

I'd think this type of mind reading and preempting usually always comes from child hood fears and maladaptive patterns we have developed which I guess could be called childish.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by smileygal

Would love to know the other way? Do share...
Ya I was quite defensive when I first heard it was a form of manipulation as manipulative as such a negative connotation to it but it's true. We are trying to get someone to act or feel a certain way' even if we think it's for the right reasons. With awareness and and the development of a greater sense of self it has improved.

I'd think this type of mind reading and preempting usually always comes from child hood fears and maladaptive patterns we have developed which I guess could be called childish.

Yes, thats how i mean childish. Like wanting to pay half price and forcing the other person to pay more.

"Why would you hire a t if something wasnt wrong with you?"
1. Straight - like, why wouldnt you buy a sandwich if you were hungry?
2. Sly - if you hire a t, there is something wrong with your decision making period.