[chaotic13]

I've working my way through some life turbulence and have decided to seek ideas on how to achieve the yet unachievable and quite arbitrary step 10.

Step 10: Demanding Significant Reparations when loved ones (or therapists) do things to hurt you or just plain %#@&#! ya off, for no justifiable reason. At least not justifiable as far as the offended is concern. :-)

Now Step 10 is not intended to be punitive or vindictive but instead REPARATIVE

For some reason I can't seem to demand that others take actions to repair the damage their actions may have had on me. So I am seeking your help by asking you: What things to you seek when a loved one has hurt you. Is a simple apology enough? A good lay? Do they have to demonstrate in some way that they understand how the hurt you and commit to trying to be more considerate in the future?

What kinds of things to you want to help you heal the hurt? Feel free to have fun in responding to this thread.

[Perna]

Okay, I have a problem with the definitions? :-) In your scenario you have all the control on both your thoughts, feelings, words and deeds and mine. In fact, you only get control of your own thoughts, feelings, words, and deeds. You can feel hurt but can't blame me for it! Your hurt is based on your insides, not my actions. My self is outside your self and all your stuff comes from inside you, not outside you. Things on the outside happen to us but how we respond is all ours.

If someone says or does something and I feel hurt by it (I take responsibility for it being "my" hurt), I want to understand what is going on. If it is a loved-one, I have trouble believing they are deliberately trying to hurt me. I investigate, talk it over with them, see if we can both come to an understanding of what is going on, how I came to feel hurt and what can be done to help make sure that sort of situation doesn't happen again. That's very like what I learned to do in therapy with my therapist.

If it is not a loved-one, I look at my history with that person to see if I should talk with them or if they do this often and don't give a ----. If they don't give a, then I make a decision on how to avoid them and situations of this kind with them. I also think up a "speech" to give, with consequences, for the next time a situation like this happens with them (telling a boss if it happens again I'll have to leave his employ, report him to his boss, etc.).

If it's not someone I know and I feel hurt I look at my own history to see what I'm projecting or transferring onto that person and think of ways I can remind myself of the work I'm doing in that area of myself and ways I can protect myself so being hurt doesn't happen in similar situations in the future.

One thing I have trouble with is sometimes confusing hurt with embarrassment. Sometimes I do something someone else confronts me with and I feel hurt they confronted me when in fact, I'm embarrassed at my own behavior (or opposite, feel embarrassed when I may be hurt or feeling humiliated at being confronted). I want to learn to look hard at my hurt and see what it actually is so I can respond the "next" time appropriately. If my behavior was inappropriate, I want to correct that, even though it's painful to look at/remember. If I feel someone else's behavior was inappropriate (humiliating me) I want to follow the loved-one, non loved-one, no one I know advice to myself.

[chaotic13]

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Perna said:
Okay, I have a problem with the definitions? :-) You can feel hurt but can't blame me for it!

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OK, very good point Perna. We can't make other people responsible for OUR feelings. Thank you for calling for clarification.

Lets say it this way...A loved one or an unloved one has done something that leaves you feeling hurt or angry. You've taken responsibility for your feelings and thought about why you are feeling hurt or angry or whatever. You politely and respectfully tell the person that their actions have hurt or angered you.

What actions to you expect them to take to help make amends and do their part in repairing the rupture?

Here is where I am TODAY at 5:00 PM EST. I was hurt by my husband lashing out at me yesterday, claiming that I didn't care about him and was trying to avoid him. (The latter statement was actually true). So I spoke up in a controlled way and told him about how his actions were bothering me. His response was to minimize my complaint and not to talk with me for the rest of the evening. This morning he was pleasant to me, but has not made any attempt to talk about the problem. I personally feel better today because I voiced my hurt last night and made him aware how his myriad of illnesses are affecting me. Also amazingly, although he is still complaining a little bit about his aches and pains, I noticed that he is not taking his temperature a zillion times an hour. So there has been a slight improvement in his behavior. (YES, I did make it a point to say, "You seem like you are feeling somewhat better today, I'm glad because I want you to feel better").

The problem here is WE STILL HAVEN"T REALLY DISCUSSED anything. And the same thing is likely to occur again in a few days. WHY, because I see some improvement and back off a little bit. I never seem to be able to achieve true reparation. I never get to the point where he says..."I'm sorry for leaning on you too much...what can I do to make it up to you?"

Now you can blame ME for this because I am not demanding or telling him--hey, we still have a problem here.

However, if the situation was reversed and I did something that ended up hurting him and he told me about it. If I cared about him and the relationship, I would seek ways to reach out and try to repair the rupture too. You know be a bit proactive. "Hey, I'm sorry, I didn't realize....can I make it up to you some how?...How about dinner, back rub..HEY...how about we TALK about what happened so I a better understand what you are going through?

Actually I even did some of that last night by going back to him after he lashed out at me and retreated. I acknowledging that I heard his complaint and attempted to talk with him about it.

For a real relationship both people have to be active in repairing ruptures or misunderstandings.

I'm asking everyone... How do you want people to respond when you tell them you've been hurt or angered by something they did? Is there a limit to your tolerance for repeat offenses before you say...' your an *** and I don't want to have a relationship with you anymore'?

[MissCharlotte]

Good, restorative sex helps.

Somtimes space.

Occasionally a shared laugh, a shared meal, a shared glass of wine.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

With T please omit option #1.

[Perna]

Your husband has a problem, you do not! He's not going to change or, if he does, that is your "reward". He can sulk all he wants, that can't "hurt" you! His minimizing your complaints is bad behavior on his part. You aren't "hurt" you are angry. He is disrespecting you and his marriage vows. He can clean up his act or you cannot stay and play with him. If he doesn't do his portion to hold up the whole, the marriage, you have to leave or your will become horribly depressed. Your choice. He is not in charge of healing you, only you can do that by staying true to yourself.

[Perna]

When I want someone to pay me back, I want them to do what they haven't done? My husband didn't pay any attention to me when I was complaining because I couldn't get online (our wireless network is through his upstairs desktop computer; we both have upstairs desktop computers and downstairs laptops and he was busy playing his submarine game on his laptop when my laptop wouldn't go online :-) so I eventually went to bed without even saying goodnight and the next morning he was all lovey dovey and talking about his "girlfriend" and I replied that his girlfriend was pissed because her internet didn't work. He decided it behooved him to get up and fix it :-) That's all I wanted, my Internet to work!

It hurts when he doesn't pay attention but when he "fixes" that eventually, gets around to paying attention and does what I wanted in the first place, whether personally, to me, or some "chore" I wanted him to do, that he does it, I don't need anything "extra" from him. But my husband doesn't ignore me often, I may feel I do even less for him than he does for me, haven't thought about it. He makes breakfast, does dishes, does the bookkeeping/financial investing/worrying, takes me out to eat if I don't feel like cooking (tonight) and generally does whatever I ask him too so I guess I don't often feel hurt by him.

[sunrise]

Hi McKell. Your use of the word "demand" throws me. It seems hostile. I think if we demand love, affection, caring from someone, it just makes them withdraw. It is better to give it space to exist rather than force it to be. Maybe it is not there, so how can you force it? Do you want the other person to fake it for you? Part of my interpretation of this, I think, is my own faulty mindset and reflective of my lack of success in relationships, so maybe just ignore what I said!

I remember on many occasions in the first 6 months or so of therapy, my T would talk about relationships and interactions. He would say how the one person says they are hurt by something the other one does, the other one clarifies and gathers information on this by talking to the first person, then apologizes when he realizes how what he did hurt the other person. This was just alien to me because I would put myself and my husband in the place of the people he was talking about, and it just didn't work. I can't tell my husband I'm hurt because he doesn't care and won't apologize! I felt like I couldn't force us to fit into this box of a healthy relationship that T described. I think that helped me understand how truly awful my relationship was, how one-sided. Later, when my H joined me in therapy, T saw for himself and then understood why I could not relate to his relationship anecdotes.

I think the best thing if you and your H want to improve your relationship is for the both of you to go to therapy together so you can work together on communication and relationship. Your husband does not know how to respond to you when you "demand" reciprocation or caring from him. In therapy, he could learn how, and then both of you could practice on each other while T observes and coaches you. My T teaches these skills to couples, and probably most skilled family therapists could provide similar.

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The problem here is WE STILL HAVEN"T REALLY DISCUSSED anything. And the same thing is likely to occur again in a few days.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I am sure your H does not want to discuss this. He will view such discussion as a way he is being criticized or blamed or told he is wrong. Whereas you see such discussion as trying to improve the relationship and draw closer to your H, it will just seem like criticism to him. Couples therapy might help.

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Is there a limit to your tolerance for repeat offenses before you say...' your an *** and I don't want to have a relationship with you anymore'?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">For me, it took about 23 years to reach my limit, but I think I am a slow learner.

[chaotic13]

Thanks Perna for giving me some examples of a relationship that benefits and enriches both people. I think some of my problem is I don't really know first hand what a good relationship is. As much as I tried to protect myself and avoid repeating my mother's mistake.. I ended up in the exact same type of marriage. The only difference is my mother had divine help to help her cope.

I liked the strength projected in your previous post. And I also liked hearing that I may not be the one with the problem.

Sister, good, restorative sex would be nice. Unfortunately I would have to pay for that too. I should have chosen a male T, at least I could at least have transference fantasies.

[chaotic13]

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Sunrise said:
I am sure your H does not want to discuss this. He will view such discussion as a way he is being criticized or blamed or told he is wrong. Whereas you see such discussion as trying to improve the relationship and draw closer to your H, it will just seem like criticism to him. Couples therapy might help.

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OMG! This is exactly how he responds. During one discussion a while back I said, "I need to DISCUSS issues with you." He replied, "Why, everything I say is wrong to you." I said "That's not true, I just need to state and discuss the pros and cons of an issue before making a judgment." "That way when a decision is made I feel comfortable that it is the best option." His response was, "Well I'm sorry I am just not smart enough for you." ?????

How do you discuss or debate or problem-solve with someone who immediately thinks all alternate perspectives are direct attacks against him personally. The desire to engage in truth seeking, to separate yourself from an issue, and to remain open minded are necessary dispositions for any type of problem-solving.

The really funny thing about this is my dissertation deals with designing an instructional intervention that attempts to improving critical thinking in undergraduates. Hmmm... I think I have a subject to pilot test it on :-) Just kidding.. My husband is an intelligent guy, he just can't handle being it when is opinion or actions are challenged.

I think couples counseling would be beneficial for both of us. We both obviously have a lot to learn regarding effective communication. Unfortunately he will not participate.

[sunrise]

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mckell13 said:
How do you discuss or debate or problem-solve with someone who immediately thinks all alternate perspectives are direct attacks against him personally. The desire to engage in truth seeking, to separate yourself from an issue, and to remain open minded are necessary dispositions for any type of problem-solving.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">It's too much for you to change this in him. He needs professional help. Counseling.

I read an article online recently on why in most cases women are the ones who initiate divorces and an outline of the classic demise of such a marriage. I remember one thing it said was that in the end, long after the woman has been unhappy for years and given up trying everything she can to try to save the marriage and finally decides to get a divorce, the man says, "I didn't know you were so unhappy." This article seemed to suggest that women should give the ultimatum earlier in the marriage. "Either ____________ or I'm leaving the marriage." Fill in the blank with "you change how you treat me" or "we go see a therapist and get help" or whatever the case may be. I certainly didn't do this with my husband. About 10 years ago, I asked him to go for marriage counseling, he said no, and I just accepted it. Waited another 10 years to get my divorce. Why didn't I stand firmer back then and say you better come with me or else this is over? Who knows, I had an infant and toddler and was scared. I never gave him the ultimatum until way, way too late, and by then it wasn't an ultimatum, it was more like, "I am so miserable I am leaving the marriage now and there is nothing that can be done."

I know there is a lot of "me" wrapped up in this response, and I'm sorry for turning the topic. McKell, so much of what you write about really calls for professional help--a really good marriage counselor. Are you going to accept "no" for an answer from your husband? If you told him that not going to counseling spells the end of the marriage, would he change his mind? Could he be one of those "I didn't know you were so unhappy" kind of husbands?

(((((mckell)))))

[Mouse_]

I don't think you can ever be completely free of hurt. I find hurt drives me forward.

[pachyderm]

> How do you discuss or debate or problem-solve with someone who immediately thinks all alternate perspectives are direct attacks against
> him personally.

VERY slowly, with great self-control and self-confidence. Hah! you say. Not very easy, is it? Still, it's the only way. It may or may not be possible for you in this situation.

FWIW