[sunrise]

Today we had a meeting of me, my H, the child therapist, and our coach (aka my T). This is not a therapy session but focused on how we can make a good and safe future for the kids. Anyway, we were talking about the possibility of my H apologizing to our girls for past bad incidents (when he was angry, yelled at them, hit them, etc.) T said this would be a very powerful healing experience for them, and could help break the cycle--so that when they were grown up, they would not seek out romantic relationships with men who were angry, scared them, mistreated them, etc. My H was kind of dumbfounded--"why would they seek out this kind of relationship?" T explained it was that they would be unconsciously trying to overcome this critical experience with their father from their youth. And they would try this over and over again as adults until they finally succeeded (or maybe they never would). H was so surprised at this. To me, this description is my life. T and I have talked about it before on many occasions. I have been in this abusive relationship with my H for 20 years because I am just repeating the pattern of my childhood. It was ironic--the weird moment--that my H could not fathom this potential response of our girls when here he has lived for 2 decades with a woman who is playing out her pattern of abuse with him as the one who dishes it out. It's crazy. I hope he can mend fences with the girls and help stop this pattern from developing in them. As I hear T explaining how my H should apologize to the girls, I am thinking yeah, that's great, but would he ever apologize to me? No, of course not. But hey, that's therapy, and that's not what we're here for today.

[chaotic13]

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Sunrise said:
I have been in this abusive relationship with my H for 20 years because I am just repeating the pattern of my childhood.

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I'm doing this too and the realization of this has been SO hard to deal with. My T keeps highlighting the similarities between my parent's relationship and the one I have with my husband. I get so angry inside when she does this. Its like... I KNOW ALREADY, I'm a complete moron for doing what I did, stop throwing salt in the wound. Part of me wants to work through these issues and save my marriage but when it is compared to my parents marriage, I just OUT and away from my H. Therapy has helped me and my kids by reducing the abuse and escalating violence, but unfortunately it has made me a lot more uncomfortable about what is going on between my husband and I --on several levels.

If you H is anything like mine, he has trouble realizing his affect on people because he can't get though his thick head that to treat people that was is wrong. You just have a problem with it because you are too sensitive, or just misunderstand what he is saying, or can't take a joke, etc. According to my husband, the kids and I just need to toughen up and get over it-- it simply the way he is.

[Mouse_]

why do you women allow your children to have to witness this??? Isn't it a shared responsiblity?? if someone is abusing my kids, man I'm out of there...I'm sorry perhaps I'm being dense here, but I do feel angry reading this...perhaps mothers need to apologise for not escaping with their children?

[MissCharlotte]

Umm,

Well, yeah I think you all are on the mark here. My father was an abusive, drunk. But when I was a teen he sobered up and re-entered family life. I hated him then. However, he did provide a model for recovery and when I was an adult (after my mother died) he apologized in his own way. At that point I knew (although not overtly) that healing was possible. I have just realized that part now.

However, and this is a big however, my mother just plain wasn't there. Not emotionally; not physically. It just isn't enough that she was out working because he was unreliable. And it isn't a good enough explanation that I was abused because she had to go out to work. Sorry, but it doesn't cut it.

Sunny, as for T being a coach in this setting, well I think once a T always a T! I mean if I saw T in the supermarket he would be T, not a shopper. I can't imagine any setting where, even if he was wearing a different hat, he wouldn't be my T. Therapy is FORVER! Sigh. I think the strength of your relationship with T shows through here.

YOU are providing the model for healing and YOU are breaking the cycle by going to therapy and shining a light on the problems.

[chaotic13]

Mouse, I understand your view and unfortunately when I judge myself-- I do it very harshly. I think women DO apologize and understand the role they play in this process. And I think it is a shared responsibility that once fully realized we do take actions to correct. That is why it was me who sought therapy and me who continues to go despite the fact that my husband refuses to go. And ME who finally step up and said THIS MUST CHANGE.

Surnise, I want to be very clear here. Of all the people I've met at PC, YOU have been the one who most profoundly gave me the gentle wake up call I needed. By sharing your comments and experiences here you were able to put verbal abuse into words that I understood. After that then comments from Perna, Mouse, random tidbits dropped from the Sky, Jello, Sister Charlotte, and so many others (the list could go on and on... ) started to sink in and make sense. If you ever get down and start beating yourself up for things, please think of me. If you were not here now, I would likely still be suffering in silence and my kids would be suffering too. The ripple effect of the things discussed and shared by everyone here on PC is really profound if you think about it.

Mouse back to your comment. I don't know what things were like for Sunrise but for Me... I grew up in a home where verbal abuse was a normal part of daily life. When I rebelled and left this home I thought I had made a clean break, that the effects of this exposure were behind me, I WAS NOT going to let a man treat me that way or control me that way. Unfortunately, somehow I ended up 5 years later repeating the cycle. My husband was not like this when I married him. I was very direct with him, didn't take any crap, and made it clear that I would not be walked all over. He would WORK, assist with household responsibilities, and show me love and respect I deserved. But some how when the kids came, and our life circumstances and his health changed gradually the tension started to rise. For me when I had my kids, I just seemed to put all of my personal needs aside and they became my priority. My needs and wants were no longer important and I think this paved the way for me to lose my sense of self. When my husband started having problems, I just slips gradually into an old pattern of covering things up, accepting responsibility for the happiness of others, and ignoring warning signs that I was slowing dieing inside. I wasn't stepping up and saying "NO" you are not going to treat me that way or I deserve better. I gradually morphed in to a passive victim like my mother. It wasn't until I realized that the attacks had shifted to my children, that I was triggered to fight. Only after starting therapy did I realize that my sense of self and been totally destroyed and that I had allowed myself to morph into this person that I truly loathed.

I accept responsibility and am working hard to repair the damage. Hopefully in doing so my kids are learning that there are times in life when you have to struggle to get what you want and deserve. Hopefully, I am not repeating all of the same mistakes my mother made. Hopefully my children will learn from my struggles how to build quality, healthily intimate relationship with others. And if I do not achieve this for myself, at least they will know that these relationships exist.

[MissCharlotte]

McKell,

I don't know if I elaborated enough here. I also fell into the place where I ignored my needs completely. When I entered therapy I had no sense of self and struggle with this daily. I thought it was good enough to do the opposite of what my mother did. It wasn't. I was completely fragmented and work on integration daily. So, the pendulum swings back and forth from our childhood to our adulthood and to our children.

It's my daily affirmation not to kick myself or beat myself up. Sometimes I am successful, and often I am not.

I think everyone here is amazing, and I admire the work we are all doing.

Peace

[Perna]

I have trouble with that being the "only" scenario. They could have worse problems with their mother (especially if they're female :-) or remember something totally different about their relationship with their father. I don't think a T can "predict" what a child is going to do like that! If they could, that would solve all the world's problems. I think it is bad form to put all the problems of the marriage on one partner, make them look like if the children have trouble it's that partner's fault.

[chaotic13]

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Miss Charlotte said:
...he apologized in his own way.

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I think this statement is important. Although your Dad had problems, he eventually, recognized that he had caused you and other family members pain and grief. It may have been too little too late, but in some small way he acknowledged it and tried to make amends.

In what Sunrise described, her husband is not really acknowledging any fault yet, let alone that fact that his actions may have consequences later on.

I guess the question is.. if Sunrise's husband just simply apologizes to get the other team members off his back, is it worth doing? Unless he really can be made to see how his actions affected others, and then decides on his own to apologize--I don't think the act of apologizing is helpful.

Should he apologize to both Sunrise and the kids? Absolutely, but only if he wants to and if he truly means it.

I think about how many times as a child I was given the.. "Don't you think you owe him/her an apology?" by a parent or teacher. Most of the time inside I was thinking, "F*&^ NO!" But on the outside I was lowering my head and saying, "s-o-r-r-y." An empty apology is worth less than no apology--At least to me.

Perna, I also had a similar thought about the prediction. I just assumed he was describing a single possible outcome. Afterall they are in therapy working hard to prevent some of these adverse outcomes. If it is that cut and dry, why bother.

Sunrise, I really hope during this meeting you and your T were at least able to get him the fathom that a father's actions (both positive and negative) leave many hidden imprints on his children.

[sunrise]

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Perna said:
I think it is bad form to put all the problems of the marriage on one partner, make them look like if the children have trouble it's that partner's fault.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Perna, I think I gave a bit of a warped view of the meeting by only reporting a corner of it. This was a 3 hour meeting in which we discussed many topics, and we had previously had another meeting too. Two important topics were my H's anger toward the kids and his exposing them to his pornography. These two have been wrapped into dreams my youngest girl is having showing extreme anxiety over these topics. We were discussing this and ways to deal with it in the family. My T was telling us how he works with people all the time as adults who come to him with very similar childhood experiences and there they are in therapy never having resolved this stuff. He was trying to show my H how early events can shape the adult. And he suggested that some action now with the girls can have a profound effect on the future emotional health and life decisions. Perna, we definitely did discuss other issues in which I was more of a player than my H and in which I need to improve. I don't think either my H or I felt that T was singling out him to blame for everything. The discussion was so important around the anger and porn issues because these could potentially affect custody decisions, and that is a main thrust of our meetings--how the legal stuff will play out.

[sunrise]

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Mouse_ said:
if someone is abusing my kids, man I'm out of there...I'm sorry perhaps I'm being dense here, but I do feel angry reading this...perhaps mothers need to apologise for not escaping with their children?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Mouse, I think I'm the dense one. It took me many, many years to wake up to the fact that abuse was occurring in my marriage. When I grew up, I was verbally and emotionally abused all the time and rarely a day went by when I wasn't hit by a parent (usually my mom but sometimes my dad). This just seemed "normal" to me. In my own marriage, I thought I could provide my kids with a home not like my own. I did not yell at them, belittle them, hit them, etc. I told them I loved them frequently (neither of my parents ever told me that). I thought I was doing good! And my H hit my kids only occasionally--it just seemed mild in comparison to my own childhood, so I maybe I thought, hey this is a pretty good situation we have here. The truth is that my H can be very angry at times and we all were kind of scared of him. And he is emotionally abusive in his own many ways. I didn't recognize any of this as "abuse" until I was over a year into therapy. So I guess I am kind of dense. I am now leaving the marriage and doing what I can for my children's emotional health and physical well-being. And I continue to work in therapy on how to set boundaries, not be a doormat, stand up to people, tell them no, etc. These are things I did not learn as a child but I am trying to learn now. One thing that did make me feel well at least the girls felt that I did do something, was that the youngest told the specialist, "my dad gets angry at us and my mom tries to protect us."

[Perna]

Oh, I'm sorry; I didn't think there was lots more background. Of course there was/is.

It's true that we come to marriage/adults with all the baggage and stuff we had as kids, interesting your husband hadn't realized that he too is such a bag :-) I'm just sensitive to the blame-it-on-the-parent thing as it's also the child's personality and what they notice/don't notice and how they "are" that affects their life.

And grownups act on other grownups. I was amazed at some of the things I had to work on with my husband based on what his wife had convinced him of and I can see (having had a boatload of therapy :-) ways that I'm influencing my husband badly. He used to be much more patient and "comfortable" in ways that over 20+ years my "ordering" him around (thanks stepmother for teaching me that!) have driven him to become more short-tempered and argumentative at times.

I assume your husband wants to stop yelling at the kids and stop affecting them with porn? For me, reassurance rather than apology would have helped me more as a child. People get angry and do wrong things and parents are human. I'd want to know they loved me and it wasn't about me (my parents use to argue and my stepmother said that I almost caused them to get divorced -- as my T pointed out, a child is in no way responsible for the parents marriage so I would have liked my stepmother to have known that and reassured me on that level). My stepmother apologized over and over which was somewhat helpful but I would have liked to have understood it "wasn't me". I took on blame where I probably shouldn't have. My stepmother wasn't "human"/like me to me. Scary dreams for me always mean I don't understand something "right".

I wish he'd apologize to you too, that would be great. Sorry it's not likely to happen.

[sunrise]

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mckell13 said:
If you H is anything like mine, he has trouble realizing his affect on people because he can't get though his thick head that to treat people that was is wrong....

if Sunrise's husband just simply apologizes to get the other team members off his back, is it worth doing?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I think he is actually starting to realize there have been occasions he hasn't treated the girls well (understatement--how he might phrase it), but I know he doesn't extend that at all to me. It hurts yeah, but it's OK. We're splitting up. Technically, we don't need to mend anything between us. But he will be the girls' father forever, and he wants to stay involved, so it is important he do some mending with them. And I think he is starting to see this. The way he has treated me is another kettle of fish, and I don't expect he would ever apologize to me for anything.

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MissCharlotte wrote:
when I was an adult (after my mother died) he apologized in his own way

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">MissCharlotte, I also had an apology from my father when I was an adult, actually right after my first baby was born. It was very healing. My mom was the more problematic one for me though in parental relations, but hey, I'll take what I can get from Dad!

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MissCharlotte wrote:
Sunny, as for T being a coach in this setting, well I think once a T always a T! Therapy is FORVER! Sigh. I think the strength of your relationship with T shows through here.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Yes, sigh.... Thank you, MissCharlotte.

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mckell13 wrote:
Surnise, I want to be very clear here. Of all the people I've met at PC, YOU have been the one who most profoundly gave me the gentle wake up call I needed. If you were not here now, I would likely still be suffering in silence and my kids would be suffering too. The ripple effect of the things discussed and shared by everyone here on PC is really profound if you think about it.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Wow, that's really powerful, McKell. Thank you.

[Kiya]

I really hope that your h truly gets it- i know at times my dad sometimes would say he's done bad things and that he wishes he'd been a better guy -- but he isn't! he didn't change!! He lives in his own magic bubble kingdom where everything is fine and he's a good guy - and can't understand why i won't talk to him. he wanted to stay in my life after the divorce, but he lost me anyway and will probably never get me back.
i really hope things are different for your kids.
and really - i hope.... hmmmmm... my mom thought he was a good guy. she really didn't see through the mist. i spent the next 7 years after her divorce telling her why is't a good thing we're rid of him.
tread carefully?
ask your kids what they think?