[sunrise]

As kids we learn not to touch the hot stove because we'll get burnt. There is a similar connection in my adult life and I need to unlearn it. How do you do that? Do you just keep touching the stove over and over until it becomes not painful? Does it ever?

To explain a little bit more... I avoid situations and conversations that make me feel a certain awful way (the painful feelings are my hot stove). This isn't really a good response. My feelings are the painful thing, not the events. I am causing this pain for myself by feeling this way. How can I break this link and learn not to feel this awful way that throws me into full avoidance mode? I need to take responsibility and not blame my feelings on external events. But even though I now see the link, how can I stop this? How do you severe those connections in your brain?

I wonder if that's what T was trying to get me to do when he told me to act angry in response to the events--even if I wasn't. By saying the words maybe I would discover that feeling within? Was he trying to get me to break those connections and substitute anger as the feeling, which I guess he saw as a healthier response?

Sometimes I feel so retarded (and I don't use that word lightly) at stuff like knowing how to feel. I see other people just feeling angry and not thinking about how to do it or what steps to take, like it's some natural skill they have. How did they learn to do that? I need some instructions because I have no idea how to put it all together. Should I do this faking thing that T seems to suggest? If I can just recognize the awful feeling inside and then try to fake anger, will that somehow lead me out of this?

Right now I think I might be mad at my lawyer and my sister. But I'm not sure. How do I know for sure and what do I do about it, if anything? If you realize you're mad about something, are you supposed to tell the other person? I keep trying to tell myself that I don't have a good reason to be mad, that I need to be more reasonable, but despite that, there is still that mad feeling inside. Reasoning with myself doesn't make it go away. Is it OK to be mad at someone even if you don't really have a reasonable cause? Or should I just keep trying to reason with myself to make it go away?

Right now I am scared to call up my H and tell him something, because I know he will get mad, and that makes me feel that awful way.

I am pathetic.

[Kiya]

yeah, our thoughts are something like a bunch of neruo transmitters corresponding and synapses. they can be changed, but it takes time, practice... several things come to mind... one is EMDR therapy...one is watching "What the [Bleep] Do We Know" and one is watching "The Secret" ... they deal with thoughts and how to change them.

=( ((((((((((((((((sunrise))))))))))))))))))))

[ECHOES]

(( sunny )) you aren't pathetic! you're learning. you're becoming aware and that's where change begins.

I don't have answers because I struggle with these things too. Feeling allowed to be angry, feeling justified. I'm also afraid of the consequences of anger--that the other person will retaliate in some way physically or by abandoning the relationship, etc.

I think for me this will take a long time learn healthy anger. It hasn't been too long since I was convinced it is a normal healthy emotion that everyone experiences.

It is fine to say "I'm feeling angry because...." but I have a hard time imagining me getting to that point. Til then I suppose it turns inward and manifests itself in many ways.

Lots to learn! And we have great T's to guide us.

[Perna]

You're not pathetic! It does take practice, especially if we've learned other ways of doing/feeling! We have the capacity for these feelings and do feel them but associating them with when they're happening and then choosing how to behave, etc. is hard to learn!

If you're angry, you're angry. You can try to reason it away but as you've found, you can't do that; telling yourself to be more "reasonable" doesn't work :-) The feelings persist.

So, you're angry at your lawyer and your sister (presumably for 2 different things?). Pick one and decide what you want to do about it! Behavior is all choice, only feelings aren't/happen. The feeling happens to inform us what's going on with us and then we get to choose how to help ourselves feel better if we want.

First, acknowledge and associate the feeling you have with "anger". Nothing bursts into flame does it? LOL It's perfectly safe to feel that way, you won't self-combust (like your husband, LOL) setting the world on fire or punching someone out or yelling or screaming naked in the streets along the way because you feel this way will you?

Your lawyer said or did something that stepped on your toes/hurt you. Does s/he know? Sometimes, with reasonable people like lawyers tend to be, you can just say, "Hey, when you said/did X, I didn't like it because Y" and see what they say in reply. You may misunderstand why they said/did X and they may clarify it in a way that makes you glad they said/did X! They may have had no clue about your Y and be really sorry and glad to know about Y. Anger is supposed to be about communication. Someone steps on you toe and you say, "OUCH! You hurt me when you stepped on my toe just now!" It isn't about punishing the person for doing it or even about the other person at all; it's about communicating how you are feeling to the other person.

Most people/professionals especially, are reasonable and will respond in a good manner, apologize or explain why they did what they did or thank you for letting them know how you feel and promise to try and pay better attention to your toes in the future, etc. Lawyers, therapists, etc. but bosses and coworkers and people we spend more time with or who have some transference or projection thing going so we remind them of their sister or mother or girlfriend, etc. are going to do things and not be so "nice" about it like the guy on your team you couldn't stand and got rid of? He made you angry, that's why you got rid of him! That was good since you tried to work with him and tried all sorts of ways to get along but couldn't. It's your life, your team, getting rid of him in the end was the right decision and the correct action to take with your anger. You didn't challenge him to a duel or punch him out or yell at him or call him names, etc. That would have been an "incorrect" angry response (like your husband is fond of it sounds like).

Now your sister is a little harder. She and you have baggage together :-) You have a unique relationship and lots of built-in possibilities for problems. Still, starting with the calm (if it's possible for you) direct "You hurt me Y way when you did X" is not a bad idea. Give her a chance to respond well. I want to learn to always give the other person an opportunity to learn and grow and choose well for themselves! I want to be that kind of person. So, she could respond as the lawyer probably will and explain or acknowledge the hurt or open the line for further communications. Or, she could start yelling or calling you names or whatever her pattern has been with you in the past?

Ugly patterns of response should not be tolerated. Saying something like, "I'm sorry, I will not talk to you when you respond to me and my concerns in this manner" and closing the conversation is all you can do. Walk away, hang up the phone, cut it off. However, that then leaves you with your "problem" that has made you angry and no "partner" to help you fix it or communicate it to.

So, you have to figure out how to solve your "problem" (it's your stepped-on toe) in another way. Since this person tends to step on your toe and then blame it on you being a clumsy oaf who isn't watching where they're going :-) you might want to buy steel-toed shoes to wear when you are around this person? Or, you could limit your time around this person and watch their feet carefully so you know when they're going to try and step on yours? Or you can "train" them not to step on your feet by wearing neon shoes with spikes coming out of them that will pierce the bottom of their shoe if they step on yours or bring along Rocco and Smitty to stand behind you and look threatening so they'll be afraid to pull a stunt like that.

I would call your husband, tell him what you have to tell him and then, when he starts yelling, sweetly give him your little speech about not tolerating such behavior from him, tell him you are hanging up the phone (your action choice) and then do that. Do not tolerate his abuse! His anger is not your problem if he does not communicate it to you in a way you can "hear" and desire to respond to it! It's his choice how to respond to your information. He can be a grown up and ask questions to make sure he understands what you are saying correctly, he can let you know in a civilized fashion how he feels about what you tell him and why, etc. It's supposed to be about communication and yelling is not an effective means of communication for you! Don't partner with him when he yells. That's your choice of behavior. Disengage.

[Kiya]

(((sunshine)))))

[pachyderm]

> a similar connection in my adult life and I need to unlearn it. How do you do that?

Gradually. With practice.

Practice, practice, practice.

It gets easier and more rewarding.

omg sunrise... we are in such a similar state of mind, some of the time at least i think... i don't know which reactions or feelings are real anymore. i dont think its so much a matter of keep touching the stove until it stops burning.. it's more like figuring out how to turn off the burner. Then the stove cant burn you anymore. i dunno.. im lost too, so what do i know?

[Kiya]

=(

(((((((((((((((((jello, sunshine))))))))))))))))))

[chaotic13]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
sunrise said:
I avoid situations and conversations that make me feel a certain awful way (the painful feelings are my hot stove). This isn't really a good response. My feelings are the painful thing, not the events.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I do this a lot. Unfortunately, I have no good suggestions for you.

[doubtful]

hi, sunrise.

i think it is enough to just let yourself be angry if you're angry--deciding if you're angry can be a lot of work in and of itself.

i recently saw a novelist speak. she does anger so well. i am inspired by her. i decided to imagine what she would feel if she were in a situation that i was facing. it has added range to the narrow set of feelings that i have allowed myself to have. i wonder if you could have someone you admire 'try on' your anger for you?

i am starting to actively ask myself if i am angry whenever i have a strong feeling about something. when i suspect that the answer might be yes, i try to allow myself to be angry. never thinking, beyond pure fantasy, about how my anger might play out in action.

anger is hard. if nothing else we can be angry about that.

~doubtful

[sunrise]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Kiya said:
yeah, our thoughts are something like a bunch of neruo transmitters corresponding and synapses. they can be changed, but it takes time, practice... several things come to mind... one is EMDR therapy...one is watching "What the [Bleep] Do We Know" and one is watching "The Secret" ... they deal with thoughts and how to change them.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Thanks, Kiya. Maybe I need to do some more EMDR with T specifically on this topic. It has helped me in the past. I'm not quite sure how to broach that. Hey, T, I need more EMDR! RE the other thing you wrote-- I don't think I'm looking to change my thoughts, it's my feelings that seem problematic.

Thanks, ECHOES, Perna and all. Lots of wisdom here.

Perna your post was so full of good information. Maybe I can write the key points on my hand with a pen and refer to it when I start feeling something. Kind of like the Feelings Cliff Notes by Perna. I think you are right about the feelings. They just are. You can't tell them to go away. I need to learn to recognize them and resolve them. That is such a tall order. When I think of that huge task, I can get overwhelmed, like I might as well drop this course now! But it's not a course, it's my life.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Or you can "train" them not to step on your feet by wearing neon shoes with spikes coming out of them that will pierce the bottom of their shoe if they step on yours

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Sounds good to me.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
it's more like figuring out how to turn off the burner. Then the stove cant burn you anymore. i dunno..

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I don't know either, jello. For me, it seems like turning off the stove would be like ignoring my feelings, stuffing them down deep inside. I don't want to do that. I did that for years. Maybe I do have to touch the stove, over and over, and confront this. I remember once when I was having a very intense session with T, these waves of pain and hurt were sweeping over me. Each time a new wave was coming, T would see it, and say here comes another one. It was so physical. I also remember him saying, "you have to go through the pain." So I did. It was great to reach the other side. Backing off would not have solved anything. Maybe it is the same with this more global problem. Jello, if you try some new solutions, and they work, please let me know!

[Kiya]

"I don't think I'm looking to change my thoughts, it's my feelings that seem problematic. "

Here's the thing on that - they're connected. I didn't get that for years and years until I watched "The Secret".

[Mouse_]

Sunrise, I have the oppersite problem. Shy away from not being angry. I can be angry at a drop off a hat, but for some reason, forgiving someone is something I hold back from. I want too, but I just CANT, or WONT..if I let go my anger I may just fall apart.

[sunrise]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Kiya said:
Here's the thing on that - they're connected.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Interesting, Kiya, I'm not sure that works for me, but I will consider it,as I am not being successful as I am. Could what you are suggesting be along the same lines of my T telling me to fake being angry? Like if I just think and say untrue things, like "I'm angry, I'm angry, I'm angry" and I say it enough, it will come true and I will actually feel angry? That approach seems unappealing to me. I want my thoughts and feelings to be in synch with each other, not in dissonance. My T has talked to me before about being authentic, bringing what I present to the world into harmony with my inner self. This fake approach does not seem authentic, so there seems to be some contradiction in what he is saying. Am I going to therapy to learn to be fake? Interestingly, before he explained the whole "fake anger" thing to me, he said "I don't usually do this, but let's try some CBT." That's my eclectic T, digging deeper in his toolbox, looking for whatever might help. I am willing to try the fake anger approach, but ever since he suggested it, I haven't had a chance with my H. And when I try to imagine myself doing it, it feels really dumb to me. Dumb and embarrassing.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Mouse wrote:
Sunrise, I have the oppersite problem. Shy away from not being angry. I can be angry at a drop off a hat, but for some reason, forgiving someone is something I hold back from. I want too, but I just CANT, or WONT..if I let go my anger I may just fall apart.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Mouse, maybe you and I need to merge briefly and then split apart, each keeping some of the other's anger behavior. Seriously, it is indeed very scary to risk falling apart. I understand. There is an article on forgiveness I really like--maybe something in it may be helpful to you: To Forgive, Not Forget. And for me, it's not so much that I shy away from being angry, but I shy away from these painful feelings inside that result when someone treats me poorly. T says I should feel angry, express anger, etc. But instead I just feel really bad and do this painful thing inside of me and I shy away from that feeling and avoid situations that provoke it.

I wrote earlier that I was scared to call my husband because I was afraid he would be mad at me and I didn't want to feel that awful way. Well, I called him, and he was OK! I could tell he was a little mad, but he contained it and was civil. So I had this little success.

[Mouse_]

Sunrise, I read that artical and low and behold there is was right in front of me, what I had wrote ...

" I must choose to release my attachment to being the “righteous victim,” even though that stance is so very powerful. "

I know though, as much as I wish for change, it won't just happen like that. As T says, "knowing isn't the same as experiencing"

I wonder if I dont choose situations that engage my anger, in the hope of perhaps fixing the past. Almost like trying to get that anger itched? I know when I feel the anger in my body its like I am going to explode and need to give it to someone else. Perhaps it takes courage to let go the past and the anger? I'm not sure I've got that yet.

Glad it went ok with your husband today.

well.. i dint mean that turning off the stove was turning off *your* feelings... more like finding healthier ways to address a situation headon without it turning into something that burns you. For myself, i will have anger well up about something... but if i look real close the anger is about moer than what is happening right there in the here and now... by turning the burner off i mean i want to disconnect the two. i want to process the old anger in safe ways, with T hopefully... and direct the appropriate anger here and now where it belongs.. or to whom it belongs. Separating out what feelings belong to what is so very hard... i second guess myself now