[sunrise]

Today T brought up again this self defense course for women that he thinks I could really benefit from taking. I told him I had actually signed up for the course, which takes place in a month, and I was going to take it with a friend, but I'd forgotten to tell him. He was overjoyed and wanted to "give me more than a hug" and he made a hug motion with his arms. He told me again how he thinks this course could change my life, would be very empowering, and help me learn to set all kinds of boundaries. (I am not good at that.) He is familiar with this program and told me there is a graduation ceremony on the last day, and all the women get to show off their self defense skills by incapacitating male attackers. And all the audience applaud and cheer, etc. He said I can invite friends and family to watch the graduation and anyone that I want to share this with. You can invite anyone, he repeated.

Well, c**p, it seemed to me he was practically begging for an invitation. He didn't say, "I would love to attend your graduation," or anything like that, but I know I am not imagining that he would like to share in this or wants to give me the opportunity to invite him. C**p. At the end of the session, after many intervening topics, he again returned to the graduation. This time he told me how he thinks my daughters could really benefit from attending the graduation and seeing their mom so empowered. And you can invite anyone you want. C**p.

I don't want to invite T. I am very shy and self-conscious, and I don't want him to see me busting guys to pieces. If I can even learn to do that. What if I screw up? What if I am the only one among the women who doesn't learn the skills well? I don't want to worry about him being there when I am trying to complete the course. I know this whole course was his suggestion, so maybe he feels some ownership over it, but I don't want to see him in this capacity. Heck, I never even wanted to let my mom attend my soccer games when I was little. It is exactly the same feeling. I remember the other girls had parents who came to watch them, but mine never came. One time I asked my mom to come and she did. Afterwards she was not very positive--my mom, the perfectionist. I have vague memories that she was critical of my play (she knew nothing about soccer). I never asked her again.

All this was under the surface at the session, and I was not aware of the stress this was causing me. I just shuffled it aside, as usual, not even realizing I was shuffling. When it came time to set a new appointment, T asked me what day I wanted to come in. Instead of picking a time the next week, which I almost always do, I skipped a week and picked a day the week after that. I think I just somehow felt like avoiding him. I don't know. I'm just walking from moment to moment driven by my unconscious and not knowing a d**m thing. Now it all seems obvious that I was uncomfortable with the possibility of his attending my graduation, and very uncomfortable at the prospect of having to tell him no, he couldn't attend. Just very anxious, stressed, weirded out. Of course I knew none of this. But my unconscious knew enough to not schedule a session next week so I could avoid dealing with this.

So here I sit with 2 weeks between sessions and feeling like I need to see him tomorrow.

What I wish is that I could somehow sense what I am feeling when it is actually happening. Instead, I have a delayed reaction and only figure it out later. Why couldn't I know how this made me feel when I was there with him and discuss it with him? Why is that so hard? How does a person learn to do this?

Now this self defense course, which made me a bit anxious just to sign up for, is a source of even more stress. T has practically suggested I invite him. Should I raise this topic with him and tell him how I feel? Or should I just pretend like our conversation never took place and never mention this again? After all, he did give me the space to not invite him.

I think some of you might comment that his attending my graduation would be a boundary violation, but that "labeling" of this issue doesn't make it any easier to deal with. He is my T, we are close, he suggested this therapeutic self defense course to me, and he would be very proud and happy to be there when I complete it. I don't think that's so wrong (plus I do see him outside of his office for legal meetings, so it's not like he doesn't exist for me outside of his room). Then I have this crazy thought: well, he didn't invite me to his wedding (a couple of months ago). And then I think I should be grown-up now and able to get over this deja vu feeling of "mom never wanted to attend my soccer games" (or anything, for that matter). I should want him there to celebrate in my success, right? It feels like I am somehow a failure because I do not want him there.

Sorry so long....

[Mouse_]

Sunrise, I so feel what you are going through right now. I am not going to "label" the rights or wrongs of inviting or not inviting T. If I were in your position, I would not invited my T either. I think you not wanting to invite T is an oppertunity to practise your "boundaires".

Perhaps your T wasn't infering you invite him? sometimes I have whole senarios and storys and conversations going on in my head and realise I've fit the conversations to fit my thinking. Of course he may have been, but you really dont know for certain, but what is certain is how you'd feel about him being there, so you can work with that.

Perhaps your also struggling with really wanting him there also? and to balance this split you've tried to prove it by distancing the session?

You ask when will you experience the feelings in the moment? I guess with time is the only answer to that.

Hope the course goes well for you, and hope my post doesnt sound like I know it all, coz I dont but these are just thoughts I had as I read your post.

[Kiya]

Sunrise, perhaps what t was saying was "if you want me to be there i am giving you permission to invite me"????

(((((((((((((((sunrise))))))))))))))

[chaotic13]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I think some of you might comment that his attending my graduation would be a boundary violation, but that "labeling" of this issue doesn't make it any easier to deal with.

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Sunrise you are intelligent and self aware enough to know if this is a boundary issue for you or not. Again I admire you for being able to acknowledge these feelings and attempt to deal with them, instead of denying them and suppressing them.

My initial superficial response to your post was: 1) call your T and schedule your normal weekly appointment to get rid of your avoidance anxiety, 2) During that appointment state that the discussion about the self defense graduation caused a lot of mixed feelings that you want to discuss. 3) Tell him that you got the impression that he would like to attend this graduation and this really caused a lot of anxiety and you want help getting to the bottom of it. Wow, it is so easy to deal these issues, NOT!

Now for a more thoughtful response:

Here is what I saw when I read your post. Please help me correct me if I am wrong.

<font color="red"> Disclaimer: Just want to remind everyone reading this post that I have major attachment issues so I shouldn't even be trying to comment on this topic. </font>

1. When I read your post it seems like you are cycling through feelings of wanting his attention, acknowledgment, approval, sharing in this experience, but at the same time not wanting these things. Is this correct? The reasons you listed for not wanting him to attend seem based on past experiences when someone who was very important to you and who you really wanted/needed their approval instead let you down. You expected (anticipated/need) your mom to be proud of you, to make you feel good but instead she was critical and made you feel bad ruining the fun and making you feel like you failed. You are afraid that this pattern of wanting or anticipating someone's approval but instead getting belittled will happen again?? You don't want to risk having a negative outcome.

If this was the only issue at play, you've already recognized the transference and your anxiety over this issue would likely be manageable. But it is not, otherwise you wouldn't have posted.

What else could be at play???

2. Interpreting a conveyed message. Adding to the conflicting mix of feelings is the wondering if you are interpreting what your T was implying correctly. (You seem pretty sure that you interpreted his wanting to come to your graduation correctly--so this might not be an issue here). However, since he did not say "I would love to attend your graduation," there is a small chance that you interpreted what he was implying incorrectly. If you are to openly discuss this situation with him, he could come back and say, "NO, NO, you misunderstood, I have no interest in actually going." "I have a lot of better things to do than see you kick some guys butt." I think you've likely been though this with your H and other relationships. Maybe the avoidance is related to you not wanting to risk knowing for sure what he meant. I am one who will avoid being rejected by either avoiding the whole situation altogether or by rejecting the other person first. I know you are not me so this may be totally off base.

What else??

3. Therapeutic relationship boundaries:
His attendance at this event also raises concerns/ questions about about where the boundaries of your individual therapeutic relationship actually are. You know that your relationship is unique and that your T is more "connected" to you than what others here on PC describe. You seem to like this but it also worries you a bit too. You outlined your rationale for why, in your situation, his attendance would not be a boundary violation. But its a gray area and you probably have some counter arguments too. Could your avoidance be related to not wanting to risk discussing the boundaries of this relationship for fear that things might change? Again, I know we are very different but there are times in my therapeutic relationship where I would really like to ask for clarification but don't. For me the fear that I may create more of a problem, raise some therapy warning flag, or risk showing some vulnerability is too great.

I hope you find something in this rambling post that is helpful.

[Fuzzybear]

[MissCharlotte]

Hi Sunrise,

What a session! I also have big time attachment/boundary issues and struggle as you all know. Like chaotic, I have spent considerable time avoiding discussions of boundary issues and have only recently been able to engage in discussions that call for clarification. It's a difficult topic for me.

In the for what it's worth, here's my two cents: I think that when T mentioned that you could invite anyone, you were immediately thrown into a transference. The exchange with T about the karate graduation allowed you to recall and begin to work through the pain of not having your mother at soccer games. I just think it's so amazing that this kind of healing can occur in the context of the relationship with T.

The fact of T actually attending your "graduation" is your boundary. You are entitled to your own boundaries, and are not obligated to discuss this again with him if you don't want to. Of course it might be interesting to see what you could work through engaging in a conversation about this. However, don't think I'm so brave--I'd probably avoid it myself.

In this session you mentioned twice (the hug and the self defense event) that T wanted "more." It might be worth exploring what this means to you.

(((sunny)))

[sunrise]

Thanks, mouse, Kiya, Chaotic, and Fuzzy.

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Perhaps your T wasn't infering you invite him?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Adding to the conflicting mix of feelings is the wondering if you are interpreting what your T was implying correctly.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Yes, mouse and chaotic, there is some of that. It would be hard for me to bring this up with him because then I'd have to admit to him I thought he wanted me to invite him and risk him saying, "what? no, not at all, I don't want to go to your graduation." And then I would feel humiliated and rejected.

[chaotic13]

Sorry about my first post, I was just trying visualize where you might be. When I looked at your post again this evening, this statement jumped out at me.
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Why couldn't I know how this made me feel when I was there with him and discuss it with him?

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Could this temporary emotional blindness be related to what you describe in one of your other posts? The one where you mentioned that when you're in therapy, he makes you feel so good that it is sometimes difficult for you to feel and accurately describe the anxiety you feel in other settings.

How about this...

Maybe you weren't actually feeling stressed, weirded out during your session. Maybe you felt a little bit concerned about his attending and slipped into a "I need some time to think about this mode." Which I think is OK. I Then your brain later started thinking about started thinking about all the possible ramifications of him attending and started analyzing your actions, and then the anxiety.

Sorry, my brain has latched on this this a bit too much.

[Perna]

I think you should wait until you're in the course and see how it is going? Since it doesn't start until next month and, presumably, takes a little while, you can see how you're feeling then, you may feel completely different about the whole thing.

If T brings up the course or graduation or anything about it, I'd get a little sarcastic :-) and explore it with a bit of a joke, "My, aren't you anxious about this course I'm taking, Mr. Mother Hen?" and see what develops. But until I started the class and knew how stressful it would be and whether I'd like it and be able to finish it or not, I wouldn't worry about the graduation ceremony quite yet?

I would give yourself permission not to like/want to take/finish this course! It might be too soon for you or not your "thing" or you might want to find your own "sort" of course. But I think your T is going a bit overboard with his thrilldom that you are taking this course and that's setting up a bit of anxiety on your part, wanting to "please" him but having your own second thoughts (or you wouldn't have "forgotten" to tell him). Always go with what you feel and want, you are all you have, he can't take, enjoy, or benefit from the course for you.

[Kiya]

"then I'd have to admit to him I thought he wanted me to invite him and risk him saying, "what? no, not at all, I don't want to go to your graduation." And then I would feel humiliated and rejected. "

and *when* the time comes.... *if* you want him to, you can always toss it out casually; "You know, graduation is X day, if you wanted to, you could consider yourself invited" and leave it at that.

((((((((((((((hugs!)))))))))))

[sunrise]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Perhaps your also struggling with really wanting him there also?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
it seems like you are cycling through feelings of wanting his attention, acknowledgment, approval, sharing in this experience, but at the same time not wanting these things. Is this correct?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
You know, I really don't want him there. I feel certain of that. I do not like being the center of attention and I would feel very self conscious if he were there. And I want this experience to be my own. If I want to share it with T, I will tell him about it in therapy. I don't want him looking over my shoulder out in the world, seeing how I am doing in life. And I worry I will somehow disappoint him--not be proficient enough in self defense. If it were some other sort of event where I was more confident of my abilities, I wouldn't mind his being there. Like if I were giving a presentation somewhere and it was open to the public--I would be fine with his attending. Plus there is the whole link to mom.

The reasons I don't want him there are 1) all my rejection in the past--mom who wouldn't go to soccer games and was critical of me all the time. My husband--same deal--was he ever supportive? And 2) I fear looking bad in front of T (failing at my graduation self-defense moves). I would be worrying about his presence at the graduation and trying not to screw up. If it were some other sort of event where I was more confident of my abilities, I wouldn't mind his being there. Like if I were giving a presentation somewhere and it was open to the public--I would be fine with his attending.

I feel bad about not wanting him to come because in a way, it is a test of our relationship. In a healthy, mature relationship, you are secure and confident of the other's support no matter whether you do well or not. This shows my relationship with him is lacking, that I can't open myself to him enough to share this event with him, even though there is the possibility I will not "perform" well. This makes me sad because I have been thinking we have such a good relationship but when push comes to shove, it turns out we do not, or else I would be able to have him there with me at this event.

It's like I learned to have a relationship with him in the safe environment of his office, but I can't move it outside. It's like the tropical flower that dies outside the hothouse. I just wish he hadn't brought up graduation.

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Sunrise, perhaps what t was saying was "if you want me to be there i am giving you permission to invite me"????

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Kiya, I think this is the most positive way to look at it and I will try. If I really wanted him there, I would have lots of trouble inviting him, because I am so respectful of his boundaries. Maybe he knows this and was trying to make it easy for me.

[sunrise]

Perna and Kiya, unfortunately I can't wait to see how the course is going and then invite T later. The course is on one very intense weekend--Saturday and Sunday, 8 hours each day. The graduation is the last part of the course Sunday. If I wanted T to attend, I would have to invite him before I had experienced any of it.

I'm not even sure I really want to do this course. I did it because T suggested it and said it could be really valuable for me--empowering, teach me to set boundaries, etc. There have been things both he and my first therapist suggested I do that I didn't really want to, but yet, these things helped. Not all the time, but I do trust these professionals to sometimes know what might help me. For example, my T suggested EMDR when we first started together, and I did it, and it was tremendously helpful. I am taking this class because I hope it will be empowering as he suggests, not because I want to please him or because it is my top choice activity. I just want to get better so am willing to try a lot.

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But I think your T is going a bit overboard with his thrilldom that you are taking this course and that's setting up a bit of anxiety on your part

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Perna, I think you're right. You're so wise. When I told him I was going, he was overjoyed, and I do not exaggerate. He just thought this was the best thing in the world for me. He tried to share his excitement about this, but somehow I didn't feel included. It was a moment that he wanted us to be connected on, but the harder he pushed (the more enthusiastic he was), the more I felt the need to withdraw and get a little space. When he said he was so overjoyed he "wanted to give me more than a hug", I felt pleased because I love his hugs, but yet I felt like it was too much, too pushy, too one-sided. I know he just wants me to have this great experience, but I need space to have that. Another strange thing, was that he wanted to share the news that I was going to take the course with a mutual acquaintance, and he asked my permission. He was just so excited, he wanted to spread the good news.

[sunrise]

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MissCharlotte wrote:
I think that when T mentioned that you could invite anyone, you were immediately thrown into a transference. The exchange with T about the karate graduation allowed you to recall and begin to work through the pain of not having your mother at soccer games. I just think it's so amazing that this kind of healing can occur in the context of the relationship with T.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I think you're right, MissCharlotte. I was having a classic transference experience. Weird! I go to therapy, intending to talk to T about X, Y, and Z, and instead this happens. Twice during the session, I zoned out and didn't hear what T was saying for a while, then I came back and tried to fake like I knew what was going on. But he caught me both times. "Where did you go just now?" is what he asks.

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You are entitled to your own boundaries, and are not obligated to discuss this again with him if you don't want to.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Thank you, MissCharlotte. I might like to talk to him about the link to my childhood, but am not sure I will be able. I also might like to never bring this up again.

Thank you everyone. This was a very rich session. I am needing time to process and you are helping. Already I feel quite a few conflicting feelings about this, and they are changing frequently!