[Mouse_]

I told T today that all the wkend I've had this voice in my head telling to jump of a high building. I told her though I suddenly thought, why should I do what it says and I confronted it, I asked it why it wants me to do that? and I was met by a young childs mishievious laughter. I said since I confronted it it seems to have lost its power and I was aware of people in the here and now today, now that I've spotted that voice.

T said, the mishievious laughter you mention is common amongst abused children. I made out what she said was just normal but my face must have shown some reaction because she then said, "was that hard to hear?" I just said "no" and continued to stare ahead of me.

I dunno it feels like I must be lying, it cant be true, dont be silly this is me, my life we're talking about here, my memorys, my time on this earth and you, (swallow, gulp) called it an abused life? How can that be? Geez I think I've made a mistake, why am I here? but also I know the facts point to that fact, unyet when its all you've known it just dont seem true.

I told T that I know the upcoming summer break is close and was expecting her to hand me over the slips I have come to hate LOL, she said I can tell you the dates now, Aug 6 - sept 8th she said you have your monday session but wednesday is the last day Im working, but I can let you have your friday session on that day? My heart melted with that kindness and I said yes ok, and she said what about booking extra sessions for after the break? I said yeah the first 2weeks back I'll come mon/wed/fri.

I also asked her is there anything I could possiblity do that would make her not want to work with me? and she smiled for a while and said, I dont foresee that ever happening we have a good relationship, geez I wanted to jump and party when she said that but I continued to stared ahead emtionless LOL! BUT inside well whhhooooaa! we have a good relationship!! now that wasn't hard to hear LOL!

[skeksi]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I dunno it feels like I must be lying, it cant be true, dont be silly this is me

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I get upset when my T says something about my symptoms or experiences being common for someone who was abused. Even after all this T and accepting my PTSD diagnosis, I have a hard time calling what happened "abuse." Just hearing it makes me feel like I'm watching a TV movie or something.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
she smiled for a while and said, I dont foresee that ever happening we have a good relationship

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

This made me smile! I'm glad you had such a positive session with her, that you guys found a way to arrange sessions so that you get the support you need before and after her vacation. And I'm glad you felt so good hearing that she thinks the relationship is a good one.

I also have the same outward stony reaction when I hear positive things from my T. I think we do it to protect ourselves. But it's wonderful to read that you value the relationship so much.

[(JD)]

It first begins with hearing it, and then saying it ... to get used to the idea...once you do, then you can work on it so it no longer affects your daily living.

[kim_johnson]

i still struggle with this and... reject it, basically. not denial, i don't think... i think 'my parents did the best they could. it wasn't adequate to meet my needs at time (spend a moment sitting with the very real intense pain). but... they did the best they could (spend a moment sitting with their very real intense pain). trying to hold them both together and seeing a inter-generational pattern...

i don't identify with being 'abused' and i don't identify my parents with being 'abusers'. that being said it is a personal choice - and i haven't known anyone else who has tried things this way... i find it... healing for me, though. i mean, don't get me wrong. i was hit and called names etc etc etc. but none of those additional facts alters the above truth, i don't think. i dunno... a way of avoiding the drama triangle? who knows...

[Mouse_]

I don't reject it. I think it gives me a base to work from and a point of reference for what I dont want my children to ever experience. I think my adoptive parents could have done a lot better. I do see why they were like they were, but I dont excuse it. Plus I think the little ones inside sometimes need to hear it so they can heal it like sky says. I was just taken aback today.

[kim_johnson]

i don't think there is one 'right' way for everyone, and i think that everyone needs to figure their own path, what seems right and what works for them.

i think i can get similar things out of my way of casting it, so maybe the only thing we are really disagreeing on is the choice of the label. and it isn't really a disagreement insofar as it is a personal decision (and i would never claim to know whether it applies to another).

i think i understand about being taken aback, though. i remember telling my therapist about how my mother used to feed me when i was about three and i hated it. and he had this surprised look on his face. and i realized that the majority of mothers weren't trying to spoon feed their kids when they were three. that took me aback... i thought it was an example of my willfulness rather than my mother failing to nurture my independence...

[Mouse_]

oh I wasn't disagreeing, I was thinking out aloud and trying to arrange things in my own mind. Was I abused? Oh for sure, am I a victim? Oh no not now I'm an adult, a surivor yes, but abuse is abuse full stop no matter how its wrapped up. As children we were victims, not as adults. Infact I love the courage I see in myself now, infact I quite respect myself for trying to change my life, thats what i respect in others also. I was just stunned for a short while today, it came out of the blue as T isn't one to keep someone a victim, she always points out another way to think about things, so thats why I think it took me by surprise today, but I'm ok with it now LOL

[Mouse_]

BUT the thing that is hitting me the most is remembering when she said WE have a good relationship, not just that she knows how much I enjoy our sessions together, but that WE have a good relationship, yeah I like that!

[chaotic13]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
T said, the mishievious laughter you mention is common amongst abused children.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
I think I have a problem hearing that something I am experiencing is common, period. I think because in my mind I have long held the belief that I am somehow totally different, abnormal, a freak of nature. And these statements challenge that assumption. I think sometime my T uses these comments as a way to indicate that my perception of being a total freak is not always accurate. Unfortunately my mind often then distorts the "a lot of women feel that way," comments into meaning "hello, that is normal, you do not need to be here."

As for the use of the word abused, my T rarely uses that term with me.
I don't know if it is my response to the word abused or if my T just tends to avoid using it with every patient. My T will instead say something like, 'people who have childhoods similar to yours frequently experience that issue.' Or with your background it is not uncommon to have an increased sensitivity to..'. Or maybe she will say, 'children who experience similar challenges commonly develop similar coping responses.' I kind of like this because it keeps her statement fairly neutral, not judging the behavior or response as being good or bad. Instead just basically saying, I've seen it before, you are not alone.

The few times I can remember my T has using the word abused and more specifically sexually abused with me when I was totally avoiding or dismissing a past to present connection. I think she uses these words to trying to evoke a more pronounce response from me or to drive a point home.

[ECHOES]

((( Mouse )))



~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~WE~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~my favorite wee little word!
I would be dancing inside, but of course I would remain "stoic" [T's word] on the outside.

[sunrise]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
skeksi said:
I get upset when my T says something about my symptoms or experiences being common for someone who was abused. Even after all this T and accepting my PTSD diagnosis, I have a hard time calling what happened "abuse."

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">skeksi, I am the same way. My T and I worked on this for quite awhile, particularly regarding the abuse in my marriage, but also from my childhood. (But particularly in my marriage--I'm an adult, why didn't I just leave?) It took me ages to accept this and to be able to say the word "abuse." To me, it felt like if I admitted I was abused, I would be casting myself in the role of a victim, and I do not see myself that way. We had to work a long time on that....

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
mouse wrote:
I also asked her is there anything I could possiblity do that would make her not want to work with me? and she smiled for a while and said, I dont foresee that ever happening we have a good relationship, geez I wanted to jump and party when she said that but I continued to stared ahead emtionless

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">What a great comment from your T. Partay time! But yeah, I totally relate to being overjoyed and holding it all in. It is protection.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Mouse_ said:

I also asked her is there anything I could possiblity do that would make her not want to work with me? and she smiled for a while and said, I dont foresee that ever happening we have a good relationship, geez I wanted to jump and party when she said that but I continued to stared ahead emtionless LOL! BUT inside well whhhooooaa! we have a good relationship!! now that wasn't hard to hear LOL!

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Awww, I love this. I don't know how you refrained from jumping and partying-- me, I would have yelled, "WHAT? We have WHAT?" LOL, I have a hard time remaining stoic in any situation. I react very quickly from emotion.

[pachyderm]

(((((Mouse)))))

[kim_johnson]

> abuse is abuse full stop no matter how its wrapped up.

I dunno...

It seems to me that 'gorse' is a descriptive word, whereas 'weed' is evaluative. 'Gorse' is a description of a type of plant, whereas 'weed' is evaluative in the sense that a weed is an 'unwanted' plant. It seems to me that there is a description of events that is possible without the evaluative word 'abuse' being applied to them. For example... My mother sometimes hit me. I don't deny that. My mother sometimes called me names like x and y and z. I don't deny that. Her actions had a negative impact on me. I don't deny that. I don't want to do those things to others - because I can see what effects those actions have on others. But to label those acts with the evaluative term 'abuse' entails (by definition) that there was both a 'victim' and a 'persecutor'. I don't see myself as a victim - either now or in the past. I don't consider my mother to be a 'persecutor' - either now or in the past. I don't deny that her actions were harmful to me. But... It is my way of bypassing the 'victim triangle', I guess.

But that is a particular theory, of course. Largely influenced by Ian Hacking's account of the term 'abuse' and about how the extension of the concept (certain acts) that have been considered 'abuse' have changed over time (which opens up different possibilities for how we choose to apply or with hold the concept). I sometimes think... The most harmful thing about certain acts... Is that we call them 'abuse' and that THAT results in a person feeling victimized / persecuted. That that sense of victimization / persecution doesn't follow inevitably from those acts, but it follows inevitably by a person applying the concept 'abuse' to events in their lives and thus applying the concept 'victim' to themselves and 'persecutor' to others in their life. I'm not at all convinced that 'abuse' or 'victim' or 'persecutor' are neutral, objective descriptors. I think that the term 'abuse' is most often applied to things in order to inspire a sense of outrage (and hence victimization and hatred) at those who did those acts. I'm not sure how helpful that is to me with respect to moving forward...

But of course, different people need to find their own path...

[Mouse_]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
kim_johnson said:



I But... It is my way of bypassing the 'victim triangle', I guess.


</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

And have you been succesful at that?

Of course some say denial is a sympton of abuse also? I dunno.

I've found I've had to work my way through the victim triangle with good results...I'm not sure if that makes me a bad human being or not? But I don't deny that through my life I Have felt like a victim, unfortunately abuse tends to make one feel victimized..its what one decides to do from there on it that counts.....sometimes seeing others coming from their "victim" roles can make me want to deny their experience, makes me want to re-victimise them...those are the days I'm not dealing with my own vunrablities ...I think just having what I've experienced witnessed/validated by T feeds that part of me that so wanted to be validated/witnessed as a child? .....

[kim_johnson]

I'm not sure how successful I've been. At times I think I do alright. At times... Things turn to crap rather. I don't expect I'm doing much better or much worse than people doing alternative strategies...

To talk about a gorse bush *as* a gorse bush rather than a weed isn't really to deny any facts about gorse bushes. One can even say that some people prefer not to have gorse bushes around without calling gorse bushes 'weeds'. Similarly, to talk about the names my mother called me and the fact that she hit me etc really isn't to deny any facts about my childhood. So... I guess I'm not sure that I am denying anything... We have choices about how to describe the same events (the same event can be described in many different ways).

The usual way of understanding things is that:
Event -> Victimization
Where it is meant to be an objective, non-evaluative fact that someone who has been subjected to those events / experiences *will* feel victimized.
I think that sometimes things go like this:
Event -> Label event as 'abuse' -> Victimization
Where here the idea is that there is a choice about whether one labels the event 'abuse' or not and whether one labels it abuse or not has an impact on whether / how much one feels victimized.

Ian Hacking on 'the looping effects of social kinds'. The thought is that people who are categorized in certain ways make their behaviour conform to the stereotype of the way they are categorized. The categorizations that we employ have a certain amount of self fulfilling prophecy to them... If we don't categorize people in certain ways then they wouldn't behave in such a way that met the stereotype.

E.g., Hysterical seizures were common when clinicians expected that (and categorized patients based on their expectation). Dissociative fugues were common when clinicians expected that... Split or dual personality was common when clinicians expected that... multiple personalities were common when clinicians expected that... multiple personality got bound up with 'child abuse' when clinicians expected that (and people started 'remembering') You can look in patterns of 'epidemics' of certain mental health issues over time as those categories e.g., 'hysteric', 'fugue', 'double', 'multiple', 'abuse victim' opened up different ways of being (or expressing distress) at different points in history. Nobody in developed western nations developed the syndrome of being possessed by a wild pig because that is not a legitimated 'disorder' in developed western nations. Many people in the gururumba tribe experience this 'disorder', however.

I understand feeling hurt... Feeling powerless... Feeling terror... Feeling isolated... Feeling lonely... Feeling despair... I have felt a lot of those things. I guess... I still don't see what work labeling the events that resulted in my feeling that way 'abuse' adds to things...

[Mouse_]

It doesn't add... it helps frame.....I'm more into feelings then intellect.....anyways its how I feel about it that matters..and hearing voices that are telling me to jump of roofs is far more relevant then the word "abuse" being right or wrong? we will agree to disagree on this one...I find your posts to be invalidating...to much thinking and not enought compassion?

[Soidhonia]

(((MOUSE))). It is good to see you postine something more positive in your therapeutic sessions, and hear that your therapist is trying to met your needs more often. I hope the best for you Mouse in the future. Take care. Soidhonia

[kim_johnson]

> I find your posts to be invalidating...to much thinking and not enought compassion?

I'm sorry you feel that way. I gracefully withdraw from the conversation at this point.

((((((Mouse))))))))

[kim_johnson]

>> I find your posts to be invalidating...to much thinking and not enought compassion?

>I'm sorry you feel that way. I gracefully withdraw from the conversation at this point.

I didn't mean to hurt you - to have you feel invalidated or threatened or victimized in any way. I guess I thought that we were good enough friends for you to know that (and to feel it too). That being said, I was trying to be careful to talk about emotions and feelings as well as thoughts and schemas / organizing frameworks. Not prioritizing one over the other, but discussing how they are inter-related.

Your words hurt me there. Maybe... You were using them to communicate a feeling of hurt? I'm not sure if you mean my posts in general (such that you find this to be the case in my responses to other people as well as to you. such that you find this to be the case whenever I respond to you) or whether you just meant here on this thread (some of them or all of them)?

That being said, I don't want you to feel hurt, invalidated, or victimized by my words so I'll just refrain from responding to you. If you have trouble with my posts in other threads then I hope that you can utilize the 'ignore' feature okay.