[dexter]

Since I can't sleep, maybe time for my story with regard to relationships and communication.

I've never had a relationship. Pathetic, no? Spent most of my life afraid of people finding out, part of it in denial, finally comfortable with it but in situations with no chance of finding someone or no time to pursue anything for myself. A lot of time spent in intense situations helping close friends through grief and hard times, leaving no time to explore on my own. And a lot of time just enjoying myself in other ways, trips, social activities, but nothing leading to a relationship.

This has never ever bothered me. Partly because my philosophy of life has always been about choices, "the world is what you make of it" and the choices i was making, although they excluded chances for a personal relationship, were nonetheless very important choices for me (and even with my reconsideration of everything now i don't think i would make different choices) and also because of my belief in karma (if you've read all about that in the depression forum amongst my recent long job related posts) and that comes into play here.

in other posts here people have expressed the belief that being in a relationship cannot make you "whole" and that you have to like yourself before you can expect others to like you, never that they will fill a void that you are lacking and need in order to survive. I have always agreed with that wholeheartedly. And in fact I have always been very proud of the fact that I feel so "complete" on my own, that I enjoy being by myself and doing things by myself, but also that I love sharing the things I love with others when I have the opportunity. I used to think I was very well rounded in that regard.

And so also I really believed that although nothing ever materialized for me, it would do so when the time was right. Karma.

Two years ago is when my depression began. There were a lot of factors that I have already discussed... the death of my mother, very bad relationship with my father and much contact with him that i couldn't avoid because of my mom's illness and death, the onset of the arthritis which completely changed my lifestyle, and other points of stress that built up over time. These all occured within months of each other, and also all followed several months after september 11.

I live in new jersey and travel to manhattan often for events, friends, movies, etc. so sept 11 hit close to home, and several close friends were nearby and very much affected by it. luckily no one i know personally was lost. i handled the grief and stress of that pretty well because i handle grief and stress very well in general. i had several close friends around with whom i could talk about it very frankly and honestly. of course it still had a huge impact.

i spent a particular amount of time with a friend who was pretty shaken by both the event and its aftermath (think: prejudice). this is someone i have known for awhile sharing a lot of very similar interests, similar intelect, similar sense of humor, etc. but not someone particularly special in my life otherwise. our friendship really cemented during the period after sept 11. a strong bond was formed.

as more time passed i realized that there was more between us than friendship. being the dolt that i am it took a long time for me to recognize. he gave me all the signs of being interested in me, close, touching, desire to be together. after several months i realized that this was the relationship that was "owed" to me by the universe so-to-speak. although i believed that the opportunity would present itself when the time was right, i also believe that you have to be proactive, can't sit and wait for it to come to you. the world is what you make of it, not what you sit waiting for to jump out and say "booga booga"

thinkiing that he was probably shy and frightened about saying anything i decided it was up to me to bring it up. this was hard for me. i had never done so before, never even had the opportunity before. i picked an event and decided to "go for it". I'm talking about some affection, making it clear where i stood, not trying to get into his pants or something. i was looking for a relationship, not for sex.

well the time came and it turned out i had totally totally misread the situation. the several weeks or months spent checking off the positive "signs" that gave me 100% confidence were 100% wrong. he did not react badly at all. for him this was just a close friendship, and still was, and he just happens to be a very affectionate person. he has no problem still being friends with me because he trusts me completely and so my sexuality is not at all an issue for him. of course that mutual trust is one of the things that attracted me to him.

i can't begin to describe how crushed i was. i know you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket but this was just how the events of my life unfolded. nothing ever was there for me and then this appeared and i thought this was it. i suppose it was my "faith" that the universe worked the way i imagined it to work.

the deal now is that not only am i crushed and gun-shy about relationships, but i am also now wracked with arthritis pain not to mention depression. the arthritis keeps me from getting out an meeting people. even if someone dropped in through my roof i wouldn't be able to enjoy any contact because of the constant pain. with the depression i am so crushed that i am not the "whole person" that i would need to be before even thinking about attempting a relationship. my trust is destroyed and, especially with the abandonment of my friends in my current time of struggle, my ability to love ever again is severly in question (i have been in love before but never anything reciprocated or a situation that could possibly work out)

so the people who tell me not to worry, i'll "find" someone don't understand that i can't look anymore. i can't be open to the opportunity anymore. that whole concept of being happy on my own is shattered because although i have often been alone, many times my choice, i have never before been lonely. and the lonliness is excrutiating for me now, and constant. people don't understand that even if the opportunity did magically come up from nowhere, i am so needy now, constantly needy and thinking about how sad i am that i don't have a relationship, that any relationship i would be in now would be one that i wouldn't want to be in. i don't want to be in a relationship because i "need to be".

even if the depression clears the arthritis is an issue for the rest of my life, both in pain and in change of lifestyle. plus i look back on the fact that no one has EVER been attracted to me throughout my whole life what are the odds of something coming up now? stumbling along with a cane certainly doesnt increase my q rating.

the fact that i don't have someone in my life is a huge issue for me. the fact that it bothers me so much that i don't have someone in my life is a much huger issue.

as i said there were many factors leading to my depression but this thing was the ultimate triggering factor. i feel like it was my "last chance" and really had my hopes up way too high... at that time not because i was needy but because all the signs pointed to this being "my turn". i spent weeks and months crying over this. every day in the car to work. every evening at home. watching tv, trying to sleep. this is when i began to realize that i was suffering from something more than just unhappiness or situational depression. just to much.

and like the other things i worry about, something that is still going to haunt me even if i can make it through the depression issue itself.

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

[Audrey]

Hi dexter. I'm really sorry to hear that. I wish there was something i could say that would make it better. Although, you do have really good thought skills. Anyway, everyone needs someone sometime. So, I know that you probably won't believe this but, maybe you'll meet someone online. You mentioned that you don't want to be in a relationship because you need to be. well, it seems to me like you always needed something. It seems like you were putting your life on hold helping your friends and family, that you just got preoccupied and didn't focus as much on relationships. As long as your alive, it's never too late. Yes, i did read your post, and it looks like you have given up. Well don't because you aren't the only one in the world with arthitis. Maybe, you'll find someone else who has it as well. as for the pain, can a chiropractor help, or any pain relievers? by the way, this is not meet to be insensitive, i just don't want you to give up yet.
-Audrey

[FearsomeAnna]

I thought the online stuff was a bunch of hooey...until I met my fiance! It's a great way to get to know each other a little better without the personal awkwardness of trying to chat someone up. Don't give up, man! I can see by your posts that you are caring, sensitive and very intelligent. Do you know how many women would be trying to knock down your door if they knew about you? I know that depression can make it very hard to see the postive light about anything, especially yourself. Take it from me that you are not some loser idiot....but a great guy! I've always enjoyed reading your posts because they are so insightful and thoughtful.

some of it's magic
some of it's tragic
but i had a good life all the way......
~jimmy buffett

[dexter]

>>can a chiropractor help, or any pain relievers?

i have a good rheumatologist and have been trying different things but have not found anything that will give me any relief so far. the depression and other health issues have made dealing with the arthritis a lessor priority... although i know they are very much linked i'm spending so much time and effort dealing with the depression that i haven't had a chance to make a new appt with the rheum doc yet.

As for being needy, its just that i always felt like a strong complete person and my vision of a relationship for myself has always been of two people sharing their lives and interests and the two making more than the sum of the individuals. now i am unhappy, unhealthy, and completely questioning my philosophy of life, grief and happiness. I can't envision this "me" in a relationship of any sort that would fit my view of what a relationship should be, at least for me. at the very least if ihadn't given up hope i would certainly be putting the "relationship searching" on hold until i fixed myself up first. in the depressed state i'm in i wouldn't be able to do any "searching" in any case.

Although i realize that i have passed a lot of time without actively looking for a relationship throughout my life, it is also true that never ever has anyone ever approached me or tried to "pursue me" toward a relationship. and i was certainly always open to the opportunity. that fact never bothered me very much only because one of my MAIN philosophies of life is that it is absolutely not ok to sit around whining that things aren't coming true for you ("knocking on your door") because it is up to you to go out and find/make your own happiness, not sit around waiting for it to find you and whining when it doesn;t.

but in the diminished position i am in now certainly nothing is going to happen unless there was a little bit of "it coming to me" action, and since that has never happened in previous 41 years of life, i have no reason to think it is going to start happening now. In spite of what everyone always says (and that I have always believed) about me being a caring personable sensitive person who others would be happy to become part of a "twosome" obvioulsy there is something about me that overrides that and prevents it. and if anything i am in a much worse state on the "attractiveness quotient", speaking in terms of personality not looks, now that i have all these problems as a load that is constantly with me.

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

[dexter]

i['ve been open to the possibility of online stuff. I have actually been a part of an online dating thing but that has been absolutely worse than zero in terms of possibilities. I am really not into "looking for a relationship in groups of others looking for a relationship" thing i just never feel any interest or "sparks" there.

More promising though are some of the personal online sites i am a member of... sites based around people's interests rather than around people "dating". to me this is a natural place to find a "soul mate" with similar passions. on several of the boards i was on i have made friends there that did end up in relationships and even married. but nothing ever materialized for me. even in similar things in the "real world" with meeting people of similar interests. friends but never anythng more.

and adding to what i said in my other post, those friendships i've made, many of which i thought were really close, caring friendships, have turned out not to be so as evidenced by the lack of any effort that anyone is willing or able to put in now in my time of need. i want to reiterate that i don't think any of these are bad people, just that they see me as more of a casual friend and no one has really bonded closer than that for me even though i had thought that was the case.

so if i can't even attract friends closely bonded enough to expend some effort during difficult times, how could i ever attract a potential mate? to be sure even the friend i described in my first post, the one who i thought was my soul mate, isn't as closely bonded in friendship as i originally believed. he cares deeply about me and understands my situation, but doesn't have much time for action due to his own personal problems and career. but i have discovered that he has a lot more contact with other friends than he has with me, so the "lack of time" isn't the whole story, part of it is that the time that he does have it is more important to him to spend with other friends than with me. this was the case before i became ill so it has little if anything to do with being uncomfortable and in any case he is very open and honest with me (part of what attracted me to him) and i know he understands this illness and doesn't have much difficulty dealing with it or with me. Just not a priority for him.

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

[dexter]

by the way audrey and anna you both get a prize for reading through that post and understanding it

thanks.

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

[Audrey]

dexter, have you ever read any relationship books. There are a lot of people who have the problem of always having people want them as a freind than as a relationship. Also, if you doing certain things don't match your personality, then has it occured to you that maybe you should take the chance and fine tune your personality, or at least enough to get into a relationship? I know that you say that you never sat around and waited for things to come to you, but on the other hand, you have gone out and made the effort of basically telling people take me as i am or forget it. That is basically the same thing as waiting for soemoen to just come to you. I understand your depression is hard, but all i'm suggesting is try reading a few books on getting into relationships, and don't be so set in your ways and go out and try a few new things. There are people who don't get married until they are a lot older than you are, so don't give up.

[conklinca]

I just wanted to point out a couple things in your thinking process that I used to think myself, only to later realize my thinking process was flawed. First of all, you say nobody has ever pursued you. Is it possible that if people had pursued you in the past, you might have downplayed it because you figured nobody would want you or that if it was real, they'd make it more obvious (and then they took your lack of response to mean disinterest)? Just a thought.

Also--you are upset because those close to you don't offer to help. I still struggle with this one myself, but I know that people can care and still not recognize they should offer help. There have been times I have been quite visibly upset and nobody seemed to care, and when I finally got to the point of blowing up about it, everyone seemed surprised and wanted to know why I never asked for help if I needed it. Even though I thought it was obvious, if you don't say the words, people aren't necessarily reading your mind--or your actions. I'll bet people care more about you than you realize.

[dexter]

>>Is it possible that if people had pursued you in the past, you might have downplayed it because you figured nobody would want you

I could answer that one either way. On one hand although I've always had self esteem issues in many ways, I was very self confident with certain aspects of my life. I still think I am an absolutely great friend, great fun to be with (not with my depression now, of course) very sympathetic and open, not one to shy away from "difficult", "taboo" or "uncomfortable" issues. I honestly thought that someday something would grow from that which is one reason I never worried aboutit.

On the other hand very much of my life has been in fear of being "discovered" about my sexuality. To be more specific about some of the comments in my first post, there were times in my life when I was very supportive of some friends and their families going through difficult times, I became very bonded with some of the young men in the family, but because I was there for emotional support I felt it was important not to add more confusion to the issue by having them know my sexuality. Some of these families were very narrow-minded in general and I'm sure they wouldn't have taken it well, but even if there was the possibility that it might be OK for them to know, it was certainly not appropriate to bring up the stress of having them consider that and possibly question my motives at a time in their lives when I was close to being their only outside source of support. So I stayed "in the closet" for practicality of continuing my relationship with them.

That definitely makes the equation so much tricker especially in our society, but even so the many years, even when I was completely "in the closet" I was also never approached by girls either. So never even had an opportunity that I didn't want. It is possible that there were more subtle things at play, maybe my female friends "sensed" something that kept them from being more than friends... and stuff like that. Whatever that was 41 years of my life and it is very discouraging now matter what.

>>but I know that people can care and still not recognize they should offer help.

This is a good topic maybe something we should open at some point in a new thread. This is one of my biggest "concrete" concerns about my life now. I certainly was victim to what you describe. I speak of this often, how as the depression grew I isolated myself further and further, actively pushing people away. And then being angry at them for not "realizing" that they were "supposed to" figure it out and break through my "smoke screen". This is something I criticize a lot in others and yet I was doing it myself and I KNEW I was doing it.

There were some times when things got really really bad, particularly the weekend before I went into the hospital, I was desparate and decided to reach out to some people and told them I needed them to visit because I was having a rough time. They said they were coming but never showed up, obviously changed plans and didn't think it necessary to so much as call me to tell me they couldn't make it. Of course that is rude anyway but in my mind they had really rejected me in my time of need. However when I looked back on that I realize that although I was really desparate and needy, I doubt I made that clear on the phone with them. Just out of habit trying to play it down so as not to upset anyone. From their point of view they might legitimately have thought I was just bored and lonely and wanted a visit, even though in my mind I felt like I had definitely asked for help. I think this is what you have described.

What is different now though is that this is one of the most concrete things I worked on in the hospital and followed through with when I came home. As I said I knew I was doing this and I think I was intentionally pushing everyone out so that I could go through with "my plan" in solitude and with less guilt. My choice to go into the hospital instead was very sincere and was a decision to turn things around. While in the hospital I contacted many many of my friends to let them know what had been going on, to let them know why I was in the hospital, to apologize for pushing them away, and expressing my desire to stay in touch and let them know what was going on out of respect for them and for my own well-being.

I followed through with that with 5 stars when I was released from the hospital. I kept calling people, didn't sit waiting for them to call me and "judging them" for it, being honest with my feelings, etc. Yet over time I have found that now I am just as isolated as I was before despite my proactive action. I had several instances identical to the one I described above, where I needed not to be alone, called someone to come over, but this time they not only were more informed as to the "score" but I made sure that my language was very clear, that I needed someone over, that I felt unsafe being alone, and just wanted someone to come so that I wouldn't be alone. Imagine my surprise when I received the same response as before, people promising to show up and then not coming. This really really hurt. I understand that for some of them it may have been difficult emotionally to deal with my situation, but 1) they could have made an excuse or at least called to say they couldn' tmake it after all instead of leaving me hanging, and 2) of all the people I know, many of them open minded and having dealt with depression before, I find it hard to believe that there is NO ONE who was able to take up the challenge and be my friend and respond.

I have ended up relying on hotline numbers again when I am in a bad state but they don't help when I really want someone I know and trust to talk with me or visit, and the disallusionment of not having anyone able to be here for me really has added to my depression. I have a lot less trust and therefore not many left that I would even trust to try calling again.

As I've said I don't think most of them are bad people. I know many of them are not skittish concerning depression or my state of being. But it seems that those who understand, whom I though were among my closest friends, really consider my only an aquaintence. Willing to talk to me as long as they are not doing something else, offering support and encouragement, but not able to be here at times when I need them, to take the effort to drive over or miss their favorite tv program on my behalf.

I'm pretty damn down about that.

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

[krzyk101]

Dexter,

There is so much of this that I absolutly relate to and have experienced or am experiening currently.
As far as my relationships go, years ago at 21 I really thought I was in a relationship, only two years of this dysfunctional mess, I now realize that I have never had a true relationship with any guy. He didn't
want to work so I was just a meal ticket, yes I loved him and gave up everything for him, he never said that he loved me, I guess I didn't want to believe that this was indeed true, he only cared about money. He was mentally and physically abusive, and that was over 10years ago. I found out really fast there were no domestic abuse centers near or at all even acknowledged domestic abuse among two men. So I just kept it in. In 1994 I escaped and enterd the hospital at a city nearby.

After that my trust was gone and still working to get it back today. Because of all of this I really do not as well feel that I am capable of love on a romantic lever. I even have problems on trust with friendships which I really don't have here in the city. They call once in a while, and there are times I feel so awful, when I go to the answering machine, and I already know the little red light is not flashing just another reminder that no one has even cared to call.

Im sorry as you said you felt the being "needy" was a barier, it is for me too. I really dont intend to be so self absorbed, but I haven't had human contact for two days, and that was my T who comes here because it is her job and shes getting paid.

Finally my point, when you said "although I have often been alone, many times by choice, I have never before been lonley and the lonliness is excrutiating for me. " I cried when I read those words, not feeling sorry you but, those words just "hit home" and I realized that is exactly how I feel, alone not by choice, only lonlienss I have never experienced.

Hang in there, I want to say it will all get better, but hell I cant even tell that to myself. I'm sorry if I said the wrong things, I guess I didn't have advice just a person who understands

Take care of yourself

KRIS


Spread the joy of a positive 2004 remember random acts of kindness

If you think you have totally gave up, you haven't, because you are here!

[dexter]

{{{{krzykris}}}}

Thank you for sharing that. I helps to have people who understand.

The answering machine thing is another issue for me that hit home. Something that was really bad during my isolation as my depression grew. I make conscious effort to not do that now... if i need contact i will call someone instead waiting for them to call, but it is so hard to fight that instinct of feeling rejected that becomes so magnified with the depression. I still feel like I am actively tackling my isolation but as things go along i find less and less people that i truly trust to call and share stuff with (as evidenced by the stuff going on at work and with other friends). I have so many friends that care about me, miss me, send me their energy and love and strength... and after time, with no one being able to follow through with that and make some effort to answer my requests it all becomes hollow. Its so nice that they "think of me all the time" but that doesn't do me one lick of good. If i were in the hospital, moved away, or were dead they could still "think of me all the time".

if you can't tell i'm getting tired of hearing that from people who are so "busy" that they can't even email more than once in three months. I am "important" in their lives yet this year and last year I go no visitors, no calls, no gifts from ANYONE for christmas, hanukah, birthday, etc.

I did see a friend yesterday and that was good. It is someone for whom I am "in the closet" though. Previous contact before that was middle of November. It is probably unhealthy that I am keeping track of time between seeing people.

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

[belle]

Hi Dave, I'm female, 33yo, married with 2 beautiful children. I have been through, what I consider to be quite a lot, of [censored] in my life so far, and I have come to the conclusion that everything in your life happens for a reason.

You know the saying, when one door closes another opens. That other door may not open for you as soon as you would hope, but I truly believe that it will open for you.

When I'm feeling similar to how you are at the moment, I sit down and remind myself of all the things that are positive in my life and appreciate them.

So I was raped, lost 2 pregnancies, suffered from unrecognised depression since I was 15 and then some.....when I look back on my life and all the things that have happened and then think of my life now...I realise that I would not be where I am today if all those things didn't happen when and how they did.

This all makes a lot of sense in my head, but most of all, I hope it makes sense to you.

At the moment, even with all the positives in my life right now, I'm still feeling a little lonely and sad. Haven't pin pointed the true reason yet but I'm sure it will all come to me and when it does, I'll be ready to deal with it and get on with my life.

[krzyk101]

Dexter,

Ya I know about "being thought of" or " I've been meaning to call you" I do try to call my "friends" and it always seems they are on there way out or in the middle of something, then the classic "I'll call you back" My friends are on disability or don't work so obviously they cant fit it into their schedule. I do know one thing though, if they dont have a car, they call me non stop for rides yet no gas money offered that doesn't even bother me, I say no and don't hear from them again. Never a call just to see how I am doing. Any more the only people who call me are people who want something in return, not my companionship, or spend time with me. Just a ride to the store-I don't give anyone rides because these people become like strays you feed them once they just keep coming back. For example 3 days ago a "friend" called that I hadn't heard from for weeks, invited me over and needed a pack of cigarettes and he would pay me back the next day, when he got his check, now three days later he hasn't called. I'm only called by these people as a "last resort" for something they want. I just sick of it, I will just continue to come here and posting, I recieve more support and graditude from the people here on my computer, than I do from anyone who claims to be my friends here.

good luck

KRIS


Spread the joy of a positive 2004 remember random acts of kindness

If you think you have totally gave up, you haven't, because you are here!

[dexter]

i feel so horrible tonight. i take my new med tonight hope it will help me sleep. in the meantime my depression is as low as it has ever been. i'm trying t o just watch tv until i feel tired enough to take meds and go to bed.

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

[conklinca]

This is for kyrz, too:

I wish I had a great solution to this, but now that you've both further explained your situation--yes, I understand now that you are both right and both need new friends. The kind that only show up when they need something out of you are obviously not the helpful kind. I hope somebody has some answers to this one for you better than I can give--in the meanwhile, I empathize, because I know how tough life can be when you're all alone.

[dexter]

thank you conklinca

mostly now I am looking just to get through this. i can't control the actions of others nor can i expect them to necessarily be a part of my solution, but still it hurts a lot.

it is how strikingly alone i am that is upsetting and the huge contrast to my "former" life.

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

[krzyk101]

Dexter, hope things are going ok.

Conlika thank you, I guess I am just a bitter angry hateful old queen who does need some new friends. Sorry about all my negativity, just the agitation and anger talking. I do thank you for the hopeful thoughts, Take it easy.

Take care,

KRIS

"I'm Not Crazy I'm Just a Little Unwell"

If you think you have totally gave up, you haven't, because you are here!

[Audrey]

Hi Dexter,
I'm sorry that you are feeling so down. Would it help if you got out and did something with people? I realize you are in pain, but it might help with the depression. Maybe join a church, or something where you can sit down? I know for me that sometimes (not always) getting out of the house is some how therapituc. Oh and that is a good idea to put that question in a thread. I'm going to do that. Perhaps others will have good input on it.