[Lauliza]

I did post this in the divorce and and separation forum but seems like it more be appropriate here, so I hope it's ok to repost.

Would you be able to move beyond an emotional affair your spouse had years ago (five now)? He left me to start a relationship with her (he never admitted this, but others did). He was gone for hours a day and every weekend night until 2-3:00am. this went on for over a year. He had secret facebook and myspace accounts. He left me initially- he wanted out immediately but waited at my request. He was terribly unsipportive with the kids when we were together, never attending family activities, never spending time with the kids. He did not support my return to school and wouldn't stay home any weekend night so I could go out. He was quite cruel during this time (about 1-2 years). I know I am 50% to blame...he was clearly unhappy and unsatisfied. We had financial problems and had to sell our house and were living in the two family with my parents downstairs.

And a third who was just getting lost. We went to couples therapy but I was so inhibited at the time and in denial I never brought my suspicions up. It did come up a little when he discovered I was dating (or having a "fling") with someone I met on a dating site. My husband (we were still separated though) and I were spending more time together. My dad had passed away and he was around more. But, I was still seeing this other guy. I did break it off and told him I was going to work it out with my husband. Regardless, my H hacked my emails and found out and accused me of cheating and being disgusted by the fact that I had been sleeping with this guy. I finally confronted him and said, look, we are separated. I know for a fact you left me for someone else, that is how all this started. You may not have slept with her till after you left, but you spent all your free time with her, and that is an affair. To that he was silent and got off the phone. He then texted me , said we should do the right thing and put the past behind us.

Ultimately we separated and got back together twice, larely due to the financial strain and the stress of raising three young kids, one with Asperger's and OCD and ODD and another with ADD. He said he wanted to get back what we had before we married 17 years ago. I told him I had no desire to go back to that time and want to move forward...we're no longer 27 years old and those feelings won't come back. I think if you have to go back that far to find the feelings that you miss, that is a problem anyway. So that was the last time he moved back and he is here for good (or at least until the kids are gone). I still feel unresolved anger. I've seen my pdoc since he left and a T as well (on and off, she is part time) and I vent to them. But I feel disconnected from my husband and not much drive to get that connection back. It had really never been there, but I guess I was just on autopilot. At the same time, I am terribly afraid to spend my older years alone. If we split when our kids are older, I am afraid I will never find someone.

My husband is not psychologically minded, so once he's decided to deny something he denies it. He will not communicate about difficult subjects. He has said no to any more couples therapy.

Not that I'm in school he is more supportive, but still thinks I'm being "selfish" and hopes I makes decent money when I graduate. He does a lot more with our son and helps out more with discipline and is around all the time. So there are positive changes. We are not really intimate, only a few times since he came back and that has been very strange and awkward. Am I being overly dramatic in my obsession with the past? Would anyone else have been able to put this behind them and am I making more out of it than I should??[/QUOTE]

[TimeToKnow]

I guess it would depend on what you want. Do you think couples therapy would really help you and your h? Do you want to get the connection back? Is your h trying to get the connection back? What woould you do with the information if he did come clean about his affair? Would his admitting it make it easier for you? I guess these are some of the questions you have to ask yourself. I have asked myself these questions. My w is not a warm and caring person and I am in a similar situation. I believe my w had an affair, I am not sure how I would react if she were to tell me the truth. I find it to be VERY frustrating and confusing!

[healingme4me]

I hear your frustration. Perhaps, more so, than him admitting it was an emotional affair, is acknowledging how his actions caused a great deal of pain.

You seem to be doing all the work, alone in therapy, and all he seems to be offering, is to get back what you had, when you were 27. Those days are long gone.

In his own way, it sounds, he's still depriving you, of the very things, that led to what destroyed the marriage, to begin with.

You aren't selfish, whatsoever, to consider your future, after kids. You deserve to have a companion, after the kids are grown and moved out.

His unwillingness, to give couples therapy a chance, again, now that you are at least more open to it, speaks volumes.

I don't believe, that the chances for finding companionship, as we grow older, is unlikely. It's just right now, you are still dealing with the same person, who hasn't changed, since you were 27.

Affairs, can be overcome, but it's like starting a whole new relationship. One that has lost its innocence. It would involve a great deal of communication, trust and respect.

If he'd at least, acknowledge this, without admitting guilt, because hey, to him, he may honestly not see anything wrong with that friendship he'd had with her. To at least acknowledge, that perhaps spending so much time with another woman, as his friend/companion, displaced that role for you, would be something he'd need to consider, to help you move past the heartache.

Sometimes, people just grow apart.

[Rose76]

It sounds like you two are now basically housemates. If that seems to be working for the sake of the kids, then maybe it's the best of bad options. People do get over one party having an affair, or even both, for that matter. I know of a very solid marriage where that did happen . . . so it is not impossible.

No one can tell you what you should "forgive and forget." Only you can determine that. It doesn't matter what others might do. It doesn't sound like you two love each other any more. If you can at least live like decent housemates and treat each other with respect, that love could possibly come back. Pretty tough situation, though. I'm really sorry for you and for those three young kids. Maybe you should get through your schooling first and then see where you're at. It almost sounds like, financially, the two of you don't believe you can separate.

There is always someone out there who could put something like this behind them. So what? There are plenty who couldn't. You're not making a big deal out of nothing. It is a lot . . . it is a big mess. You're trying to figure out what to do based on wanting to know what you should do. There are no shoulds here at this point. It boils down to what do you think is possible. Then, comparing the possibilities, what gives you the closest to something you would want. There is one should that both your husband and you need to think about. What do the two of you owe those 3 kids?

At one point, even after knowing that you were with someone else, he said he wanted to put the past in the past. That does give you something to work with. Some short term therapy to come up with some kind of a temporary treaty might lay some groundwork for the future. You actually sound more hopeless about preserving the relationship than he does. If you really want out . . . then face that's what you want.

It is totally possible that you may not find someone else, whether you split now or later. It's also possible that he will have another affair when you least expect it. This is a really tough one to figure out. Therapy sounds out based on his reluctance. But what can a therapist tell either one of you that you don't both know already? I wish I had more wisdom to offer. This is tough.

[hamster-bamster]

First, people can be fine aging alone provided they are not lonely. Loneliness is a terrible, terrible thing, especially as you age, and possibly even detrimental to health at the level comparable to that of smoking no less. But loneliness and living alone are not the same thing.

Right now you are living with the H, but you feel lonely - you can reread your post and your loneliness will jump at you.

You suffer from grossly exaggerated guilt and an inflated sense of responsibility for the wellbeing of others - in the beginning you said that he was cruel and immediately went on to assume 50% responsibility for his being cruel.

Why do you think that if not he, then nobody? You had that fling off the dating site, so you are attractive and sociable enough to have more flings. For something serious, you also have much to offer, such as resilience, sense of responsibility, parenting skills in case you end up with step children, and many many more. You went to school while mothering three children with psych dx's and an unsupportive, distant, sometimes cruel cruel husband. You must be a real trooper and somebody out there will appreciate you. So staying with this one just for the sake of not being alone makes literally no sense.

To stay together for the sake of parenting diagnosed children and saving money may make sense as a stopgap until your nest is empty, but then you need to form a new partnership specifically for those goals and nothing else, not attempt to resuscitate old feelings (he wanted it and you didn't), not rehash things in couples therapy (you were ambivalent about it and he didn't want it), not go to bed together since it awkward and strange anyway, but just live as housemates and coparents. If this arrangement works for awhile, you can talk with him about having each some kind of love life on the side and how you would handle the issues that would then arise, such as whether you will keep pretending you are husband and wife in front of the children and how to handle the schedule conflicts. I don't think it is time yet for another fling for you yet, and much less a serious relationship - you need to spend some time seeing the situation for what it is and figuring out if you can and want to live with him in this quasi marriage partnership.

Just in case, since you seem to earn more than he does and since divorce is a likely outcome, go see a lawyer now, to learn about your options. Don't delay seeing a law.

[hamster-bamster]

Oh, and when you want to stay with him to avoid being alone when you are old, you are betting on his being there for you, which is not guaranteed - he may die or leave you for a wealthy woman, since he seems to prefer living off a woman's wages. Don't bet on his being there for you then.

[Lauliza]

Originally Posted by Rose76

At one point, even after knowing that you were with someone else, he said he wanted to put the past in the past. That does give you something to work with.

This is true and the basis for why I feel so much guilt, yet ambivilence, at the same time. When he read my emails and texts he became very upset. So that does show me that there are real feelings there. He also told me he was disgusted with me because I slept with someone else- according to him men think less of their wives when they found out they've slept with someone. If I was just dating this guy, but not having sex, it wouldn't have been so bad. Part of that is rejection too, because we had not been sexually active for a long time and then he learns I was with another guy...I take 50% responsibility because our sex life was never what it should have been, even before kids and I could never really understand why. He was the first so I thought it was just me, and he thought that too I guess. But his lack of support when our kids were younger (refusing to watch them while I worked from home on the weekends, for one thing) didn't help my desire. It is so complicated and messy that it is hard to analyze over a forum. We were in marriage counseling at one point but he wouldn't discuss anything difficult beyond communication issues.

I do love him - he's been in my life since my 20's and that's hard to shake off. What kind of love it is I'm not sure, but it's not the passionate romantic love. But then does everyone have that when they are older and have been through so much? Then, I alternately hate him for not really having the care in interest in me that I feel like he should. When the younger kids, 11 and 9 years old, are still awake at 10:00 when I come home from class because he is watching tv and will not interrupt his shows, it speaks volumes to me about him...I think sometimes I feel like I need validatin for my feelings. Now that he wants to try, I've heard from some people (not many but some) that I should feel lucky. I think he feels that way too but I don't get that. My male pdoc doesn't think I should feel so lucky, but my female T seems to have some sympathy. It's interesting but so complicated it really overwhelms me. I guess my focus should be on my kids, school and new career for now.

[Rose76]

That's a lot to process. I kind of see why you have so much ambivalence. There are different kinds of love. Divorced people often do continue to love each other at some level. (Remember Cher speaking at the funeral of Sonny Bono.) That marriage might be a good one to compare yours with. (Infidelity on both sides.) Passionate love tends to fade for probably at least half of couples, even while concern for each other keeps growing over the years.

You keep taking half of the responsibility for the marriage going sour, but then you try to say that the fault was more his than yours. Well . . . which is it? Answer that, not to me, but in your own mind. He's probably got the same analysis.

The marriage can never be put back together by having a competition over who can do the best job of blaming the other . . . who can make the most convincing case. Lots of husbands are not real good at caring for the kids. (Of course, some are excellent.) But you must have gotten clues to that during the first year of life for your first child. Nonetheless, you went on to have two more kids. Ask yourself what has been holding you two together.

We women tend to want to have the last word on things. I know how it is to want to forgive and build a future, but hang on to the "I was wronged." mentality. Been there, done that. No man wants to invest more emotionally in a relationship, where he thinks the past is going to be held against him perpetually. To start anew, you both have to retain some sense of pride. This is a tough case.

[Lauliza]

Originally Posted by Rose76

That's a lot to process. I kind of see why you have so much ambivalence. There are different kinds of love. Divorced people often do continue to love each other at some level. (Remember Cher speaking at the funeral of Sonny Bono.) That marriage might be a good one to compare yours with. (Infidelity on both sides.) Passionate love tends to fade for probably at least half of couples, even while concern for each other keeps growing over the years.

You keep taking half of the responsibility for the marriage going sour, but then you try to say that the fault was more his than yours. Well . . . which is it? Answer that, not to me, but in your own mind. He's probably got the same analysis.

The marriage can never be put back together by having a competition over who can do the best job of blaming the other . . . who can make the most convincing case. Lots of husbands are not real good at caring for the kids. (Of course, some are excellent.) But you must have gotten clues to that during the first year of life for your first child. Nonetheless, you went on to have two more kids. Ask yourself what has been holding you two together.

We women tend to want to have the last word on things. I know how it is to want to forgive and build a future, but hang on to the "I was wronged." mentality. Been there, done that. No man wants to invest more emotionally in a relationship, where he thinks the past is going to be held against him perpetually. To start anew, you both have to retain some sense of pride. This is a tough case.

You're very right, there is a lot of effort on both sides to blame the other. When we were in couples therapy a few years back, that is what the counselor said was a big part of our problem. Same happens with financial issues. He said we have very different ways of thinking and communicating which can be toxic if we don't fix it. He said I needed to work on my passivity too...he said most women would have left long before this and wouldn't put up with the cr*p. that is improving and we do get along better now, we are nicer to each other. Putting to much pressure on us to make things go a certain way may not be the way to go. You're right, this is all a big mess and a lot to process. Quite frankly, if there were no kids, it would be long over. But, that's not the case do the situations not so clear cut. I do want to set a good example for my kids regarding relationships. He is loving to the kids so i don't want what they see between us...friendly but lacking in affection...to cloud their ideas of what relationships should be like.

[Rose76]

People used to say that marriages shouldn't be held together just for the sake of the kids. Now that we have seen the sad results of what broken marriages have done to several large generations of kids, I think we have good grounds to question that. Marriage is not just a contract between two people, IMHO. It's also a contract between those two people and their future children. It is commendable of you to say their welfare is paramount. Also, it is honest of you to say that their dad does love them. Many wives wanting out try to say that the guy is no good to the kids anyway.

If the two of you are getting along friendly-like, that is better than what a lot of kids see. If the main reason you want to end the marriage is because you can't stand being in it anymore, then own that truth. Don't try to sell yourself on the rationale that, if I leave, I am doing it for the kids. It's okay, to do it for yourself, if you feel strongly enough that this is an emotionally impossible situation for you to stay in.

Ideally, you want to offer your kids an example of a great relationship between you and their dad. That dream is kind of dead, or in sore need of resuscitation. Kids don't have to have everything ideal. No kids get that, anyway. You don't describe the kids as seeming to be suffering a lot from the coolness of the marriage. It's affecting them, for sure, but their will be hardships imposed on them, if the two of you split up.

Also, what kids notice changes depending on their age. Right now, this may be kind of working for them. When they are older, they will be more sophisticated about what is really going on between the two of you. If you two are managing to be reasonably polite in front of the kids, then you both deserve a lot of credit.

I'm not telling you to stay with him, just advising that you not kid yourself about why you want to leave. Lots of kids whose parents are divorced grow up just fine. Keep that option on the table. Sounds like you and your husband need to do some serious talking where the point is not to compete in the blame game. Sounds like you might really like to save this marriage, if you can believe he wants to do what it takes to accomplish that. Ask yourself: is he giving evidence of that? Sometimes, "Wait and see." is as good a strategy as any.

[hamster-bamster]

You first said that your middleschoolers were up at 10pm because H would not interrupt his TV show, and then said that he was loving to them. In that particular example, and it might be an isolated case or part of a pattern, he was lenient to them for the sake of his own convenience. Lenient is not loving, especially in this example because getting enough sleep is paramount to mental health and academic performance of children and teens.

[Lauliza]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

You first said that your middleschoolers were up at 10pm because H would not interrupt his TV show, and then said that he was loving to them. In that particular example, and it might be an isolated case or part of a pattern, he was lenient to them for the sake of his own convenience. Lenient is not loving, especially in this example because getting enough sleep is paramount to mental health and academic performance of children and teens.

He is loving in that he shows them affection and spends twice as much time with them than he did a few years back...when he was busy spending time with someone else. But all that aside he could be better and that is one of the things that frustrates me. The lack of backup I receive enforcing limits is a problem. But this is someone who used to call my cell irate if I left the kids with hint if I went to the store and was gone for more than 30 minutes. I can only accept what he is capable of and I see his behavior more in line with being a lousy husband. He's old fashioned so his ways are outdated. I guess the good thing is I no longer allow as much of this behavior as I did then.

[hamster-bamster]

Ok, so he has made progress, sure.

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by Lauliza

He is loving in that he shows them affection and spends twice as much time with them than he did a few years back...when he was busy spending time with someone else. But all that aside he could be better and that is one of the things that frustrates me. The lack of backup I receive enforcing limits is a problem. But this is someone who used to call my cell irate if I left the kids with hint if I went to the store and was gone for more than 30 minutes. I can only accept what he is capable of and I see his behavior more in line with being a lousy husband. He's old fashioned so his ways are outdated. I guess the good thing is I no longer allow as much of this behavior as I did then.

Does he still call your cell, irrate?

Sent from my LG-MS910 using Tapatalk 2

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

You suffer from grossly exaggerated guilt and an inflated sense of responsibility for the wellbeing of others - in the beginning you said that he was cruel and immediately went on to assume 50% responsibility for his being cruel.
.

Originally Posted by Lauliza

When he read my emails and texts he became very upset. So that does show me that there are real feelings there.

I alternately hate him for not really having the care in interest in me that I feel like he should.

I've heard from some people (not many but some) that I should feel lucky. I think he feels that way too but I don't get that. My male pdoc doesn't think I should feel so lucky, but my female T seems to have some sympathy. It's interesting but so complicated it really overwhelms me.

Originally Posted by Lauliza

[the counselor]He said we have very different ways of thinking and communicating which can be toxic if we don't fix it. He said I needed to work on my passivity too...he said most women would have left long before this and wouldn't put up with the cr*p.
Quite frankly, if there were no kids, it would be long over. But, that's not the case do the situations not so clear cut. .

Originally Posted by Rose76

If the two of you are getting along friendly-like, that is better than what a lot of kids see.
If the main reason you want to end the marriage is because you can't stand being in it anymore, then own that truth. Don't try to sell yourself on the rationale that, if I leave, I am doing it for the kids. It's okay, to do it for yourself, if you feel strongly enough that this is an emotionally impossible situation for you to stay in.

Ideally, you want to offer your kids an example of a great relationship between you and their dad. That dream is kind of dead, or in sore need of resuscitation. Kids don't have to have everything ideal. No kids get that, anyway. You don't describe the kids as seeming to be suffering a lot from the coolness of the marriage. It's affecting them, for sure, but their will be hardships imposed on them, if the two of you split up.

I'm not telling you to stay with him, just advising that you not kid yourself about why you want to leave. Lots of kids whose parents are divorced grow up just fine. Keep that option on the table.

Sounds like you might really like to save this marriage, if you can believe he wants to do what it takes to accomplish that. Ask yourself: is he giving evidence of that? Sometimes, "Wait and see." is as good a strategy as any.

Even if staying married, is for mainly financial reasons, I'd say own that, too. Why, are you 'lucky'? And in what context? And I bolded the point that you mentioned, at least you could tell he has some real feelings for you. So, his calling you disgusting for his invading your privacy, and for doing not much different than he did, is showing real feelings?. What words did you use, to him, about his little fling?

I get the ambivalence. And your own affair lingers over you, it's a social ambivalence, I get that.

One of those things, that unless he'd raised a hand to you, you are on the fence?

[Lauliza]

Everything that you've mentioned is what keeps me from feeling more enthusiastic about giving him all of myself right now. His calling me disgusting was a big one. I for one didn't think of it as an affair. Yes we were spending time together and hadn't divorced yet, but we were separated for a year at that point and he didn't move into the house until 4 months later. It wasn't good judgement in that reuniting was something we were discussing, but to he fair to me, I spoke of it mainly from a pragmatic point. He did from a more emotional point. At one point he asked "what happened to you? You're so jaded now" and I was like - what do you expect?

About feeling lucky... I think he had this idea that he strayed but now he's got his act together and am back. I begged him not to leave at first. Once he was gone my attitude was "meh". Something inside had changed.

I have no intent to leave now. My daughter with autism could be quite violent with me and refused school. At first, my h did not believe that she was as bad as I said as she didn't act this way with him. But then he witnessed it and did step in a couple of times. So his mere presence in the house changes that whole dynamic and for that alone it is worth the sacrifice. Otherwise it was taking its toll not only on me which I could handle, but on the other two kids. I had to ask myself if this was better for them. Add financial strain to that and it was a pretty stressful life.

He does and always has worked full time - it was me he didn't want to see work, at least not in a job that takes from his free time. I had a good full time job but had to leave because I missed too much work when the kids were sick. They have me an at home job and my h wouldn't help watch the kids on the weekend because that was his free time. It's hard to get many hours in with 2 toddlers and a baby at home. My job was to care for them too! so the weekends and the evening would have been great, but he wouldn't help. That's when our money problems hit us hard and we had to sell our house and move into the parents two family. He said he was resentful of that, but I always felt if he helped me work, we wouldn't be here. Anyway I stayed home and got increasingly depressed and the marriage became distant.

After he left us, I started working again part time a year after he left and felt better than ever. It's important for me to work and feel like I'm competent at something. I'm a good mom, but s great housewife I am not (and don't really want to be). So as u can imagine, start grad school was even better. He never supported school but I didn't let him move back in unless he accepted it, which he has. He grumbles about my loan and yes doesn't put forth much effort to parent them while I'm at class, but that's it.

My biggest fear is our (or my really) future. Believe it or not, we are very friendly to each other and don't show distress to the kids. 4 years ago was different, they missed him terribly before he even moved out. Now he's there for them. I obsess mostly about what I'm missing out on on in a potential personal life. I know I made a choice to put that part of my life on hold but it is hard. It's no wonder I have a crush on my psychiatrist!

Thanks for your honest replies and I'm sorry to have rambled here, but these are things I can't share with many people except my pdoc and t. And even with them you can only rehash things so much. And no, he does not call irate anymore. I finally yelled at him for that!

[hamster-bamster]

Crushes on mental health professionals can also be part of transference, to be fair.

[Lauliza]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

Crushes on mental health professionals can also be part of transference, to be fair.

Right, that's what I kind of meant. With all this mess in my romantic life, it would make sense to have a crush on a guy who gives me attention, is sympathetic, great looking, divorced with kids and my husbands age. He's everything I wish I had, at least in my fantasy world.

[Fuzzybear]

[Lauliza]

Originally Posted by healingme4me

Even if staying married, is for mainly financial reasons, I'd say own that, too. Why, are you 'lucky'? And in what context? And I bolded the point that you mentioned, at least you could tell he has some real feelings for you. So, his calling you disgusting for his invading your privacy, and for doing not much different than he did, is showing real feelings?. What words did you use, to him, about his little fling?

I get the ambivalence. And your own affair lingers over you, it's a social ambivalence, I get that.

One of those things, that unless he'd raised a hand to you, you are on the fence?

I never directly confronted him about it until he called me out on dating this man while we were SEPARATED. I told him that I knew he didn't sleep with this mystery woman, but that I knew beyond a doubt that he left me so he could. He spent all his free time with her (I don't know her but one day the kids and I were driving and we saw him driving with a woman). They kept saying who;s daddy with? So I called him and no answer. I called him a few more times and he said she was a friend he ran into and gave her a ride. That I also got phone calls from people in town to let me know they saw him with some females at the local meting place (a club like place). so our trysts were not the same at all, I just had sex and he found out. His saying he was disgusted never left my head as you can probably tell. Nor did this behavior from five years ago that I can't seem to let go of either. We put on a good front for the kids. I just feel guilty that I can't seem to give him more now that he makes a genuine effort to change, and has changed in some ways. But that doesn't erase the past. I guess its true that you can forgive but not forget. I worry about the future of us being elderly together, and having to be his caretaker. It could be a hellish existence...I've seen it in some older couples. I like to think that we are doing the right thing now and that will bring us peace in the future. Focusing on my kids, work and schooling helps. If my mind and time weren't occupied I'd be even more obsessed than I am now. Thank you for being supportive of this long, complicated, probably redundant story