[AllShallBeWell]

This is a very long story and I apologize for putting it out here w/o being able to participate in this group on a regular basis. My husband and I are retired and we have been living an unconventional lifestyle on a sailboat traveling around the Eastern Pacific which tends to isolate us from things like reliable internet and access to therapy. If you need more info, I'll be happy to provide it, but first I have to do a sanity check on the things that are bothering me the most.

I've been sticking with a marriage that I think most people would probably tell me to leave. In fact I've never told anyone (friends or family) what I'm about to tell you, partly because I didn't want to diminish my husband's character and partly because I didn't want anyone to think less of me for staying with him. It isn't what I call a marriage in the sense of two people in love, and hasn't been for many years (at least half of the 23 years total; I am 57, he is 50). But we are usually comfortable working together and for the most part we enjoy each other's company. For a long time we lived like roommates. After the 2012 affair (see below) I decided to kick some *** and do what it took to hook him again. I also made certain we left that country where the macho culture is far too tolerant of having a GF on the side.

In 2012 we spent from May to October apart (as we had in 2011 – w/o incident to the best of my knowledge). Many months earlier we'd had a conversation about sex in which I told him he could get a girlfriend (GF) while I was gone as long as it was sex only, with no romance or emotional involvement of any kind (what I was too polite at the time to call a “**** buddy” - FB). Sex has always been an issue for us, and is something I'm always having to work on. (I can do without it; he downloads porn every day if we have internet.) After I returned in October I uncovered a six week affair of dating (movies, restaurants, dancing, drinking, romantic day trips out of town – complete with photos of her and the two of them at sunset, etc.). He claims he had “permission” to get a GF, but admits he overstepped the bounds from FB to romance. Honestly, in the country in which he was living, it would have been next to impossible for him to get a FB. He literally had to wine and dine her if she was going to put out for him. He has apologized profusely, says it was a mistake, promises he'll never do it again.

Several months later we discussed the GF vs. FB aspect of the infidelity again and I asked him to unfriend her from his Facebook account. I felt that his wanting to stay friends with her signified an emotional attachment which was inappropriate. Not to mention how much it hurt me to know he was still in touch with her. He told me he would, but I waited for weeks and he never did. I then took it upon myself to archive their conversation (I did not delete it, even though I wanted to), block her posts, and remove her from his chat list. I didn't want him to keep being reminded of their romance.

After that I made it clear in no uncertain terms that we were now in a completely closed marriage. I didn't think I had to be specific that it applied to all genders.

I freely admit I have been spying on him since October, 2012 (See: divorcesupport.about.com/od/infidelity/qt/spyoncheater.htm). At the time I was just trying to figure out what was going on. When he finally decided to tell me about the affair (a week after I found out on my own), he lied to me about not seeing her after I got back. I believe he was no longer seeing her romantically, but I know he lied about many things relating to her (including giving her an air conditioner and bicycle we didn't want to take with us when we left) because I kept track of his phone texts and Facebook chats. I also went through our Quicken accounts and figured out that he had loaned her $500 and not gotten the entire amount back from her He lied and told me it was for some local guy he'd become friends with. I felt that keeping quiet and reading what he was writing to other people was the only way I could keep track of what was happening since it was obvious I couldn't trust him to tell me the truth.

In August, 2013 I accidentally deleted a huge porn collection off of his computer. Yes, I was messing around looking for things but it truly was an accident and I fessed up to it right away (although with a lame excuse about what I was doing there in the first place, which made me lose credibility with him; he'll always believe it was deliberate). A week later during an unrelated argument he slapped me hard on the side of my head. I believe this was fallout from the porn deletion. I waited days for him to apologize. When I finally said something to him about it he said he would never apologize because I had “provoked” him. A month ago he gave my knee three sharp slaps and yelled at me to stop nagging after I feared for our safety and asked him not to engage with a driver he'd pissed off who was messing with us. He slapped me early in our marriage, and one time, many years ago during an argument, he told me he wanted to smash my face in. He once put a dent in a frying pan by hitting himself on the head in a fit of anger and depression after I left our anchored boat the only way I could – by jumping in and swimming to shore; I wanted to give him time alone to cool off after a heated argument). While I usually don't fear for my safety, his inclination is to smash, hit, or slam inanimate objects when he's angry. He says it's just a different style of arguing. He comes from a shouting and breaking background; I come from the silent treatment style of fighting.

In November, 2013 we returned to the States, the land of fast and cheap internet. Here is what I know:

He has an ad on a sailing oriented web site advertising himself as “newly single” and looking for crew. He placed this ad soon after our most recent conversation about divorce. I don't think he got any responses, and the account has been inactive. (I have a fake account on the site to monitor his profile.)

He has a “secret” email account which he uses for contacts of a sexual nature. When I accidentally tried connecting to this email account on his phone he heard the tone, knew I had tried accessing it, got angry with me about it, and removed that email account (and that account only) from his phone.

He looks at our local area Casual Encounters entries on craigslist, and he chats and exchanges email with CD/TS contacts. I have emails I copied in which he offered to buy lingerie for a TS contact. He has told these contacts that his wife has all kinds of lingerie that gets very little use and he would love to see them in it. He sent a photo of my sex shoes to one contact expressing a desire to see the CD wearing them. He wrote to one that he had to be very careful because his wife had gotten upset over a previous affair, even though he thought he'd had her permission. (“Permission” is now a hot button for us. We were watching a TV show in which the hero slept with the best friend of the woman he really loved, but who was trying to stay faithful to her imprisoned husband. When I tsked tsked over this caddish behavior my husband said, “She gave him permission.” Really?! Does that make it the right thing to do?!)

He once took pictures of me during sex w/o my knowledge. It's a miracle that I happened to look at the camera (for something unrelated) and found them before he could move them to his computer. He deliberately kept my face out of the shots, but I deleted them without saying anything even though I was furious. I suspected that he planned to send them to his CD/TS contacts, and to legitimize his marital status with one in particular. This incident was particularly hurtful since I'd gone all out to please him sexually with all of his favorite things. It was when my back was turned to him that he snuck the shots. When he found out I'd deleted them he was initially angry that I would delete photos from his camera but he apologized for it later, conceding that he shouldn't have taken them w/o asking me first.

He spends hours on porn sites downloading photos and videos of mostly CD/TS subject matter (although he has folders on our computer for straight, gay, and lesbian too). He is fixated on men passing as women and posing in lingerie, stockings, and outrageous high heels. Lately he spends hours poring over strap-on dildos, and has asked me to wear one for him. I am trying to go along with this but I never thought he'd actually follow through with it, and I'm very alarmed. I've always considered **** sex to be completely off-limits. I'm afraid that I'll be crossing a line that I'll regret forever. But I thought if I went along with it, he wouldn't be as tempted to look outside our marriage to fullfull this need of his. I'm concerned that he spends so much time looking at porn that he thinks it's all normal and is the way sex should be. I'm disgusted by the way our sex life has to mimic whatever his latest porn fixation is. Do I really have to go along with all of this to keep him from being angry and dissatisfied with me? It can't possibly have anything to do with love.

Even though I could do without sex completely, I realize it's important for a healthy marriage to keep that part going. But it always feels like I'm the one that has to initiate a big production in order for us to be intimate. He says he doesn't initiate sex with me because he knows I get nothing out of it (I've never been brought to orgasm by anyone but myself). I've tried to explain to him that I don't need to come in order to feel intimate with him. I think he's using my “not liking sex” (which is how he puts it) as an excuse to initiate contact with other people (since I apparently don't satisfy his real desires). He never fails to use “not liking sex” as a weapon when we argue, even though I'm going out of my way to do what I can to accommodate him. [I wrote this paragraph many months ago. Lately he has been going out of his way to please me, trying new things in an effort to get me to enjoy myself. I still have no sexual desire though, and sex is a chore for me.]

At this point I feel I absolutely cannot talk openly with him about any of the “secret” things – because it will only drive him deeper underground. During my initial investigation into the 2012 affair I found emails and a photo proving that he has already had physical contact of a CD/TS nature about ten years ago. He was finishing up a job contract while I went ahead of him to the city we were moving to, and we were separated for three months. If it wasn't for that, I might chalk all of the craigslist contacts up to mere fantasizing.

I'm finally posting to this forum because on March 24, 2014 I caught him composing an email response to a craigslist ad from a man wanting to fool around with another man or couple. When I came into the room and asked him who he was emailing he lied and quickly closed that and several other tabs. I asked to use the computer and after he left the room I was able to pull up his secret account because he hadn't logged out of it. I had enough time to read the draft email in which he expressed an interest in meeting the man but that his wife (me) wouldn't be interested. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to figure out if he follows through with this since they have already arranged their “story” for being away from home (the other man is also married).

Divorce has been mentioned a few times over the years but he's the one who always gets panicky and depressed (he mentioned thinking about suicide the last time). He is fearful of losing some of his retirement fund in a 50/50 split. He once actually told me that he didn't want to divorce primarily for the financial hit he would take. He complains about how much work it would be to have to sell the boat. He doesn't have any idea where he would live. He says he doesn't have a support network of family and friends like I do. Only after he's worried about these things does he get down to not wanting to lose me. And as much as he complains me, I know I make life easier for him in some ways.

So why am I staying with this man I'm not in love with, and who's secretive behaviors anger me? Is it worth all this anxiety in order for me to live comfortably without having to work? We live a very simple, low cost lifestyle and, as terrible as I know this sounds, I don't want to have to get a job to support myself on my own. My sister (who doesn't know any of this, but knows I'm unhappy, and was appalled by the way my husband spoke to me and to her husband when they visited us) says working a crappy job would be far better than putting up with a crappy marriage. But I'm not so sure; I go back and forth on all of this. Each time he does something awful I am despondent and ready to walk out the door. But then I wake up the next morning, we're getting along well, and I think I can continue to stick it out with him. It would be a relief to talk to a therapist because we do not argue constructively, and I wouldn't want to start in on any of this without a third party present. He runs verbal circles around me and beats things to death, until I'm so worn down that I don't even know what we're talking about anymore. But therapy is next to impossible since we're never in one place for very long.

I have to make it to the end of April with him. Then I'm visiting family for three weeks in May. After I get back he'll be away for 3-6 weeks. If I'm going to make a move, it will have to be then. I can't face leaving him in person because I always let him talk me out of it. I fantasize about living alone. I would absolutely love to have my own little space all to myself. I can tolerate living on the boat with him because there are wonderful aspects to that lifestyle which we have shared for more than 20 years. But my thoughts of living on land never include him.

Am I crazy to have stayed in this marriage for so long already? Is there any reason I should continue to live with this man? I feel sorry for him because I'm sure he's as unhappy as I am, but I lost all respect for him years ago. He would probably say the same about me...

I realize this is far too long, but I appreciate anyone who has the time and inclination to comment.

[kaliope]

there sounds like lots of reasons to leave, but can you summon the courage to? a solution to staying seems to be to let him have his sex life on the side as you go port to port. then you can still have the life you are accustomed to and he gets what he wants as well. take care..you have a lot to think about

[allme]

Hi and welcome!

Well I think the first mistake was letting him have a 'fb' in the first place Anyway it happened and it's what you do next that's important.

Going by his behaviour, how are you supposed to trust him? You need to make it clear you wont tolerate any of this behaviour linked to him chasing up other people online. Although I don't condone checking his personal stuff, I guess on this occasion it's lucky you did!

You said you don't love him....if you don't believe you can love him again and he is chasing other people anyway, I see very little reason for you to stay together. You will just end up old, lonely and bitter. I think it's way healthier to find yourself a job and get the hell away from this relationship!

I hope you do the right thing

without reading it in its entirety, I have to comment on the "FB" aspect that I read up to. The point at which things went awry was when you actually gave him permission to have one. First, I don't believe anyone should have a partner of any kind that uses them purely for sex anyway it's demeaning and it's using them. IF there is no emotional connection between people I think they need to stay out of the bedroom anyway but even with my own personal values aside... and if you think that's incorrect, the idea that someone can have a "FB" and actually keep it physical only is being naive. I'm sure it's possible and happens but I think it's very rare that no connection would be made unless he hired a prostitute, a different one each time. Fact is over time, repeatedly seeing the same person even just for sex is going to turn into something eventually. They've met on the most intimate of levels, and in my mind, it's inevitable, the longer that goes on the more inevitable it becomes that it will be more than that. I'm not shocked or going to judge him on this at all. Just human nature.

To say that it was infidelity at the poitn where there was more than just sex I think is inaccurate. It is infidelity just by having a mistress only it was condoned by you.

[AllShallBeWell]

Originally Posted by kaliope

there sounds like lots of reasons to leave, but can you summon the courage to? a solution to staying seems to be to let him have his sex life on the side as you go port to port. then you can still have the life you are accustomed to and he gets what he wants as well. take care..you have a lot to think about

Thanks, but I don't think this is an option for me. I thought I was open-minded enough to accept him having sex on the side, but that has turned out to be a deal breaker for me. I especially resent the amount of time he spends on pursuing outside sexual connections and downloading porn while I'm sitting literally just around the corner from him. Not to mention that he is spending our joint retirement funds on these activities.

[AllShallBeWell]

Originally Posted by s4ndm4n2006

without reading it in its entirety, I have to comment on the "FB" aspect that I read up to. The point at which things went awry was when you actually gave him permission to have one. First, I don't believe anyone should have a partner of any kind that uses them purely for sex anyway it's demeaning and it's using them. IF there is no emotional connection between people I think they need to stay out of the bedroom anyway but even with my own personal values aside... and if you think that's incorrect, the idea that someone can have a "FB" and actually keep it physical only is being naive. I'm sure it's possible and happens but I think it's very rare that no connection would be made unless he hired a prostitute, a different one each time. Fact is over time, repeatedly seeing the same person even just for sex is going to turn into something eventually. They've met on the most intimate of levels, and in my mind, it's inevitable, the longer that goes on the more inevitable it becomes that it will be more than that. I'm not shocked or going to judge him on this at all. Just human nature.

To say that it was infidelity at the poitn where there was more than just sex I think is inaccurate. It is infidelity just by having a mistress only it was condoned by you.

It's true that I made a mistake thinking that I could be open-minded enough to not be hurt by a sexual affair. We discussed the fallout from that and I made it clear our marriage was now closed. I guess that's why I'm particularly angry that he's continuing to sneak around behind my back. I can only assume that he doesn't think men count.

I may be naive but craigslist is full of people looking for casual hookups. In my husband's case I think he's looking for something I can't give him (because I don't have the right equipment and am reluctant to go there), not to mention the huge variety of available people to do it with.

[AllShallBeWell]

I also see a cumulative escalation of what he wants from our sex life with no improvement in the way he treats me on a day to day basis. We were vanilla for the first few years, then he introduced lingerie, then came the hooker shoes, and now he's forging ahead with the strap-ons. What's next, a threeway? I thought if I went along with all of it, he'd be happier with me in general (not true - he still doesn't hesitate to snarl at me when I do something to annoy him), and would have no reason to pursue encounters with men. I guess I wonder why I have to be his sexual plaything if I'm not going to be the one and only.

On the other hand, if I don't provide what he needs, does he have the right to look elsewhere for it? What right do I have to expect him to change something so fundamental in him? Where/how does one draw that line in a marriage? I just don't see how it's possible for us to stay together. I'm not willing to go as far as he wants, and he's pretty much proven he's not willing to give up trying to meet CDs for sex. When push comes to shove he'll say he loves me, but is this how you treat someone you love?

[hvert]

Wow, that sounds pretty miserable. I'm assuming that you'd be happier on your own, but maybe not. I'm only reading what you wrote and don't know about the other reasons you've stayed in this marriage so long, so please take this with a grain of salt.

I can understand feeling sort of trapped because you're scared of the financial hit, but that part will probably be a lot less painful that you expect it to be. You're used to living a low cost, low maintenance lifestyle already. You can do it. Maybe think of it is in terms of paying a happiness fee?

A crappy job is only 40 hours a week. A crappy marriage is all the time. Maybe you can swing a more part time job and live off the money from the sale of the boat and the split of retirement assets until you hit 62?

What kind of advice would you give to someone else in your situation? My boyfriend's mother stayed with her abusive, alcoholic, narcissist husband because he was a good provider. She's still stuck with him and will probably drop dead before he does from the stress of dealing with him.

My mother chose the scary route and worked three jobs the first year she was divorced. I can't tell you how much better life was then, even though we were much, much poorer-- and we didn't stay that way. Within a few years, she was making more money than he did

[AllShallBeWell]

Yes, these are all things I've thought myself. It's making that first awful leap into the unknown that is so hard. And it makes me sad to think of hurting him, even though I hope he'd be better off without me in the long run. We've had a grand adventure together and it's strange to think of it ending.

Originally Posted by AllShallBeWell

It's true that I made a mistake thinking that I could be open-minded enough to not be hurt by a sexual affair. We discussed the fallout from that and I made it clear our marriage was now closed. I guess that's why I'm particularly angry that he's continuing to sneak around behind my back. I can only assume that he doesn't think men count.

I may be naive but craigslist is full of people looking for casual hookups.

well I know there are a lot of people looking for casual hook ups but I would contend that if any of these hookups went beyond a very few times even they would have a hard time not forming some kind of relationship and if they think they won't they're being naive too. No judgement on you...

The fact that he is continuing is all on him. it's no longer your mistake and although you might have set him up on this path, he's no longer acting with accountability to you.

In my husband's case I think he's looking for something I can't give him (because I don't have the right equipment and am reluctant to go there), not to mention the huge variety of available people to do it with.

Be careful not to make excuses for him now. That is something that is his choice period. it's not a "need" as I am guessing you give him normal, traditional sex, it's a "preference" he has and by doing what he is doing he's making his preference take precedence over his marriage and in a way devaluing the importance of putting your values and priorites at the top of his list.

Although you made a mistake initially from this point, he's responsible for being continually adulterous. Seems to me either he changes, or you accept it or get out.

[Hoyam]

U asked a question that u already know the answer to u just needed assurance that it's the right thing to do. this is in no way a healthy marriage or lifestyle (stalking him online and every time u find something) u know u can't trust him and no longer in-love.
he even said the only reason he doesn't want to get divorce is to avoid any financial loss (such a hurtful thing to say).
I read all the post and I can say ur relation is a dysfunctional one in every aspect. Get out as soon as you can and am concerned about his violent behavior it will only escalate and u two are alone in the middle of nowhere! yes fear for ur life he may think that getting rid of you is the only way he would follow his fantasies and keep his money and boat.

[Perna]

It sounds like you want the money to keep working; why do you not both just do your own thing (as it sounds like you do anyway with each of you being away from one another for various reasons for weeks at a time). My grandmother and grandfather did that; he had a mistress but she would not allow him to divorce her because of the social stigma (back in the 1940s). The family only sort of knew what was going on; I had the dubious pleasure of helping my stepmother write to the mistress (no conceivable relationship to each other, whatsoever LOL) in the 1990s the mistress was my father's age (my father was oldest child) so still alive long after my grandparents died in the 1960s. She had been given jewelry by my grandfather and never married/had children of her own, etc. and wanted to return the jewelry to our family when she died.

I do not think the marriage can be "saved"; does not sound like your husband wants to work on it at all but what the two of you decide to do as far as have others on the side, etc. would be up to you two? I personally would want to get what money I could and then live my own life, to heck with what he wants, he isn't trying to help you get what you want so let him get depressed, scared, unhappy, whatever, that's his problem, how he deals with his feelings and wants. Right now it just seems like he has everything the way he wants it or he'd be doing something different, like you are content with the money situation and don't want to rock that boat?

Wow.
From what you write it sounds as if your husband might be addicted. And he seems to think that life is like porn....almost like he thinks that that's what sex is really like.

Of course your husband is wanting you to stay...he's got everything he wants.

That said, if counseling is out of the question, then personally I couldn't stand by the sidelines and watch his continuing actions.....

You're in an open marriage, no matter what you think. Whether you can accept that is really up to you.

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by AllShallBeWell

Not to mention that he is spending our joint retirement funds on these activities.

There you go!! Time to get out now! Sounds like you are making plans in your mind, April is right around the corner.

[FLJ13]

Too hell with this guy! He lies to your face and cheats on you! He has physically and emotionally abused you! Assaulted you! Screw him worrying about his retirement money, that is HIS fault. He has no respect for you. I would have left this bastard the first time he'd lied to my face. You don't need him, clearly you sound like you are strong enough to get yourself out of your situation and divorce this dirtbag. You don't need any more of his abuse. Save yourself. Get help from a social worker, women's shelter, Dr, anybody to help you get away before he does any more damage to you. You are worth more than that!

My mother is 71, she has lived your life for the most part(no boat living). I asked her what she would say to you and she told me you need to leave. She wishes she had.

You are a young woman (I'm 51, I refuse to think otherwise) a good life is waiting for you. Get out before he spends your retirement, injures you or brings home AIDS. My mom refused to have sex with my dad once he started having sex with men. I will add, my mom met an old friend at a school reunion and they kindled a romance, unfortunately the man had terminal cancer. If he had been a viable choice she would have divorced my dad and remarried. As of now, they sleep in opposite sides of their house, occasionally go out to dinner and mostly do their own thing with their own friends.

I just hate to think of you wasting any more of your time, energy, youth, money, health on someone who so obviously is very bad for you. Please, save yourself, get out.

All my best

[AAAAA]

It sounds like you are both unhappy. I think the big question is really why would you stay? Whatever the boundaries of your marriage were, you're not happy with where they are now. And while I would never pass judgment on the other aspects of your marriage, physical abuse is never acceptable.

[timjohnez]

OMO sez: One man's opinion is you should have been out of that marriage long ago. Giving him permission to have a FB seems a weak excuse to try to prolong the relationship. I went through a marriage such as yours, she could do without sex where as i thought it should be a daily activity, many health benefits if nothing else. 9 years into the marriage we had a serious conversation and ended up agreeing on a amicable divorce. I have been in a very 'healthy' relationship for years now with a woman who shares my enjoyment for intimacy and physical closeness. I have to admit, we don't likeall the same things, but we do enjoy each others company, are friends and share enough similar interests beyond the sexual that i feel this relationship will be quite long term and mutually enjoyable and beneficial.