I have been interested in this guy for a few months now, some of you may have "heard" me talk about him--the guy who does my hair, the musician, the one who invited me to his CD release party in February. The one I have some key things in common with, namely being raised by a mentally ill, psychotic mother (except mine disappeared while his committed suicide 4 years ago). The one who didn't follow back on Instagram but left a cute little "Looking adorable!" comment on one of my photos. Yeah, him.

Well, I had another appointment a few weeks ago, and I was super wired, which he picked up on, but which I attributed to "having a stressful month," which was not untrue. After I relaxed (hello...head massage? Yes.) it was a good time. What I can say for absolute certainty is that we have good chemistry. We have a lot to talk about, there is flirting, laughing, teasing, silliness, and quite a lot of common ground. He asks a lot of not-superficial questions, seems genuinely interested in knowing about me for whatever reason. Which isn't great for my objectivity, because I'm pretty smitten with this guy. And besides having to touch me because it's his job, I think he's a pretty touchy-feely person anyway, which I just think adds to it. Or maybe he's not, and he is flirting. I have no idea, because I'm just clueless when it comes to people, let alone men. I honestly have no idea when they're interested vs. just being nice.

Some things happened in the following week which are incredibly ambiguous but also sort of not (way too in-depth to post here), which I'm interpreting as interest. My good friend is telling me that I need to just come out and ask him if he's interested which, hahahahaha, is never going to happen, and I know (and I know someone is going to confirm it, here) that if a man wants to be with you, he will. The fact that he's not calling means he's not actually that into me.

Argh. And then there is the other part of me. The part that realizes he and I are pretty much mirror images of each other when it comes to relationship fears: Abandonment issues? Check. Trust issues? Check. Big ole brick walls? Check. OMG, check. And if I'm reading him correctly, everything he's putting out there is saying, "I'm fearful. Be patient with me. I want to let go, but..." The problem is that I am fearful as well. And I think in black and white terms--like, are you wanting to do this or no? Are you interested in me or no? Because my butterflies are turning into this lead ball of anxiety. And I've canceled my next appointment with him because, right now, I'm feeling like maybe I should just cut him out of my life completely.

This guy is (to me) incredibly attractive and successful, and I feel totally intimidated to ask him out. I just don't see it happening. And I know that any advice anyone would give me here would be "Well, either you ask him out or you never know." I know. I know. But if he says no, if I've been reading into things wrong this whole time, I could never go back to that salon again.

Dude... I don't want to marry you tomorrow, I just want to get a cup of coffee with you.

[divine1966]

Not true that if he wants to be with you he will call. Men are just as afraid of rejection as we are. If not more especially if they were rejected or hurt before.

Well if you ask and he says no you'll find a different salon. Or not. I asked a man out before. We dated for a year didn't work in a long run but we remained friends 16 years later still friends. . I didn't die lol I wrote him a note with my phone number and asking to call lol I was in my early 30s at the time. Took my chances. It was scary but oh well. He wouldn't ask me out first because he thought I was taken. Who knows what this guy thinks

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[Artchic528]

I will be confirming that you need to ask him to coffee. If you don't ask him soon you'll give him the impression of not being interested and he'll move on to some other girl.

[divine1966]

At this point you have nothing to lose. Well you might lose a hairdresser but it is not something to die for. Now if he was a co worker or someone you must see after a rejection then yeah it would be scary but other than that take a risk.if you are too shy to ask write a note and include with A tip

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[Trippin2.0]

Worst case scenario, he says no, you discover rejection isn't fatal (which is a positive discovery) and you switch salons...


Best case scenario, he says yes and "misskeena and musician, sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g..."


Is saying nothing really a gamble you're willing to live with?


Because by the looks of it, you're not able to live with it comfortably.


ETA: I liked a shy guy once, long ago...

I couldn't stand the suspense any longer and I just kissed him one day! Hehe, turns out I did the right thing, or he would never had made a bloody move!!!

This is why I'm single. Because my ego/self-esteem/whatever when it comes to relationships is pretty much zero. I do hear what you all are saying, and I wish I could just step out and be normal about this stuff; it really won't kill me, I get it. But I have such distortions about myself when it comes to this that it's like I'm frozen in place. On one hand, in some areas, I feel pretty darn good about myself and feedback from other people confirms the things I believe. But in the realm of dating, I think, "OMG, I'm just so...ugh. No. What if [insert guy] is embarrassed that I'm interested?" I think I'm such a bad ***. Sometimes I am. But when it comes to this, I'm so, so not. And that's pretty unattractive.

There are reasons that go beyond how I was raised, the negative messages I was brought up with that feed into this. When I was in my early 20's, I was a member of a church which leaned more toward courting rather than dating, and I hit it off with one guy when I first got there. We were "hanging out" (that's what it was called) a lot for quite some time before he dropped me like a stone, stating that he felt like God was telling him I wasn't the one. I was devastated, and the leadership in my college group were telling me that he just wasn't hearing God correctly. It became so that I read into everything he said and did, looking for a "sign." It was a HUGE fiasco. In the meantime, the other guys were pretty much ignoring me, telling me I just wasn't "wife material." I wasn't demure enough or submissive enough, according to them. This was occurring in my early 20's, during the time when I should have been freaking getting comfortable in my dating skin so to speak...and pretty much no one wanted me because I either wasn't wife material or I was "promised" to someone else. I finally settled in with the only guy who paid any real attention to me, which pretty much derailed my life (I was already on the way since that was when my depression was getting really bad) and we crashed and burned about a year later. After him I left the church, started hanging out with my college friends at the bar several nights a week, and just went home with guys who were pretty black and white about what they wanted...at least they were honest. Once I got out of that phase, I dated my friend's husband's friend for two months who, last time I heard, was wanted for murder. That was in 2009. There have been a few dozen first dates met online since then. And that's about it. When I'm at work or school, I feel super-confident; I know I'm in my element and on my game because that is what I know. I'm smart, I do what I do well, and my coworkers and professors give me feedback to that effect. In the realm of dating, I feel like an absolute failure. I am not in my element. I don't know what I'm doing. I have never had a relationship which didn't go down in flames, or for which I wasn't made to feel like trash. I wish I could ask B out, but I both think he deserves better and am scared to death that he knows this and would completely recoil.

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by misskeena

This is why I'm single. Because my ego/self-esteem/whatever when it comes to relationships is pretty much zero. I do hear what you all are saying, and I wish I could just step out and be normal about this stuff; it really won't kill me, I get it. But I have such distortions about myself when it comes to this that it's like I'm frozen in place. On one hand, in some areas, I feel pretty darn good about myself and feedback from other people confirms the things I believe. But in the realm of dating, I think, "OMG, I'm just so...ugh. No. What if [insert guy] is embarrassed that I'm interested?" I think I'm such a bad ***. Sometimes I am. But when it comes to this, I'm so, so not. And that's pretty unattractive.

There are reasons that go beyond how I was raised, the negative messages I was brought up with that feed into this. When I was in my early 20's, I was a member of a church which leaned more toward courting rather than dating, and I hit it off with one guy when I first got there. We were "hanging out" (that's what it was called) a lot for quite some time before he dropped me like a stone, stating that he felt like God was telling him I wasn't the one. I was devastated, and the leadership in my college group were telling me that he just wasn't hearing God correctly. It became so that I read into everything he said and did, looking for a "sign." It was a HUGE fiasco. In the meantime, the other guys were pretty much ignoring me, telling me I just wasn't "wife material." I wasn't demure enough or submissive enough, according to them. This was occurring in my early 20's, during the time when I should have been freaking getting comfortable in my dating skin so to speak...and pretty much no one wanted me because I either wasn't wife material or I was "promised" to someone else. I finally settled in with the only guy who paid any real attention to me, which pretty much derailed my life (I was already on the way since that was when my depression was getting really bad) and we crashed and burned about a year later. After him I left the church, started hanging out with my college friends at the bar several nights a week, and just went home with guys who were pretty black and white about what they wanted...at least they were honest. Once I got out of that phase, I dated my friend's husband's friend for two months who, last time I heard, was wanted for murder. That was in 2009. There have been a few dozen first dates met online since then. And that's about it. When I'm at work or school, I feel super-confident; I know I'm in my element and on my game because that is what I know. I'm smart, I do what I do well, and my coworkers and professors give me feedback to that effect. In the realm of dating, I feel like an absolute failure. I am not in my element. I don't know what I'm doing. I have never had a relationship which didn't go down in flames, or for which I wasn't made to feel like trash. I wish I could ask B out, but I both think he deserves better and am scared to death that he knows this and would completely recoil.

Listen everyone of my relationships failed including my marriage so you are in a good company. Well you can decide if he rejects you you will never go on that salon so you'll never see him again.

Honestly I'd write him a note that I'd like to go for coffee with him
But feel shy and here is my number and leave the note with tip. And see what happens. Try??

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Originally Posted by divine1966

Listen everyone of my relationships failed including my marriage so you are in a good company. Well you can decide if he rejects you you will never go on that salon so you'll never see him again.

Honestly I'd write him a note that I'd like to go for coffee with him
But feel shy and here is my number and leave the note with tip. And see what happens. Try??

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No offense, and I know you mean well, but I don't feel like telling me I'm in good company with failed relationships is helpful. In my case, I don't want to be in that boat. I don't want to be in that company.

I'm not shy, actually. I talk to him plenty, and am pretty open with him otherwise. These types of issues aren't about shyness for me or for him (because he isn't a shy person, either). I'm not going to ask him for coffee, period. It's not gonna happen, and I'm not looking to be talked into doing so. But I am saying that here are where some of my issues stem from.

[Bill3]

What happened with relationships in the past was just so painful and humiliating that right now you just are too fearful and nervous to take any first steps towards the possibility of relationship.

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by misskeena

No offense, and I know you mean well, but I don't feel like telling me I'm in good company with failed relationships is helpful. In my case, I don't want to be in that boat. I don't want to be in that company.

I'm not shy, actually. I talk to him plenty, and am pretty open with him otherwise. These types of issues aren't about shyness for me or for him (because he isn't a shy person, either). I'm not going to ask him for coffee, period. It's not gonna happen, and I'm not looking to be talked into doing so. But I am saying that here are where some of my issues stem from.

Sorry just trying to help. You sounded down I thought to give you some ideas. Oh nobody wants to be in that boat, but many of us are, question is what do we do to get out of the boat. I didn't mean you are shy I just thought if you tell him that it sounded more neutral than saying "low self esteem", I thought you can explain true issue later, not in original note. I see now that you won't ask him out so scratch that . Good luck with whatever you decide.

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Originally Posted by divine1966

Sorry just trying to help. You sounded down I thought to give you some ideas. Oh nobody wants to be in that boat, but many of us are, question is what do we do to get out of the boat. I didn't mean you are shy I just thought if you tell him that it sounded more neutral than saying "low self esteem", I thought you can explain true issue later, not in original note. I see now that you won't ask him out so scratch that . Good luck with whatever you decide.

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Sorry...I didn't mean to be snappy, I just feel like such a loser. This is not a good situation for me but I mean, it never is so what's the difference? I am always getting too wound up, too attached, pushing away, anxious, overwhelmed. A basket case, in other words.

I just want to have a normal time where I go out for coffee with a guy and get to know him peacefully without all of this effed up mess in my head.

Originally Posted by Bill3

What happened with relationships in the past was just so painful and humiliating that right now you just are too fearful and nervous to take any first steps towards the possibility of relationship.

It was. But I have to at some point. I turned 37 on Thursday. I wanted a family at some point...that ship has all but sailed because I am either too afraid to let down my walls, or I attract emotionally unavailable men (which may actually both be the case, here). So...yeah.

I'll think about asking him. I will...think about it, I mean.

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by misskeena

Sorry...I didn't mean to be snappy, I just feel like such a loser. This is not a good situation for me but I mean, it never is so what's the difference? I am always getting too wound up, too attached, pushing away, anxious, overwhelmed. A basket case, in other words.


I just want to have a normal time where I go out for coffee with a guy and get to know him peacefully without all of this effed up mess in my head.

Oh no problem. I teach high school so
am not easily offended.

Well when you discover how to get to know someone peacefully and no effed up crap basket case you let me know. I'd like to learn how to. At 49 I still don't have a clue.

My motto is not to give up. I think even my t thinks I am nuts that i keep trying. She also says we need to approach relationship as business negotiations with no emotions involved until you know he is right. Also keep yourself less available. Gee how do you do that????

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[ChipperMonkey]

You don't want to be in the same boat as others who have failed relationships?

No offense, but this is an INCREDIBLY unrealistic way to look at things. And to be honest, if you count the guy who ditched you at church, you do indeed have a failed relationship of sorts. It seems like you're being a bit judgmental and at the same time putting obstacles in your own way to finding true love. Rare is the case of someone who goes out and hits a home run on their first at bat. You need to practice. Relationship stuff doesn't come naturally to most of us.

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by ChipperMonkey

You don't want to be in the same boat as others who have failed relationships?


No offense, but this is an INCREDIBLY unrealistic way to look at things. And to be honest, if you count the guy who ditched you at church, you do indeed have a failed relationship of sorts. It seems like you're being a bit judgmental and at the same time putting obstacles in your own way to finding true love. Rare is the case of someone who goes out and hits a home run on their first at bat. You need to practice. Relationship stuff doesn't come naturally to most of us.

She did come across judgmental but she later apologized plus I didn't take it personal, she isn't in a good place and we all know how that feels. Miskeena shared she did in fact had failed dysfunctional relationships I think two and they both ended in a very devastating way, so she is in the same boat.

I actually only had two major long term relationships myself one was my marriage and the other 9 years living together. I had some short experiences in between but not much to write home about. I did and do date but am not finding the right one.

But I guess we can't give up. If I feel someone might be interesting to know ( like the hairdresser) I go for it and if he is wrong I leave when I figure it (sometimes takes 2 weeks but sometimes many years go figure)

. Sure it is devastating at times as I hate running and break ups but what are other options? Not take chances? Life is short!



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Originally Posted by misskeena

Sorry...I didn't mean to be snappy, I just feel like such a loser. This is not a good situation for me but I mean, it never is so what's the difference? I am always getting too wound up, too attached, pushing away, anxious, overwhelmed. A basket case, in other words.

I just want to have a normal time where I go out for coffee with a guy and get to know him peacefully without all of this effed up mess in my head.

Hey Miss K, mostly just wanting to send you a hug, reading through this thread I'm wondering if you want to vent rather than get advice?

For what it's worth (you can take what you want from this and leave the rest) if I were you I would take the pressure off myself by not looking at this as a 'date' but rather the next stage in a friendship. Could you casually invite him along to something socially where there are a few others in your circle already going? If he says no then no big deal you're still going to go and have a good time, rather than it being all or nothing. If he says yes then take it from there.

From what you write of him it sounds like you have the potential to be good friends.

Originally Posted by prefabsprout

Hey Miss K, mostly just wanting to send you a hug, reading through this thread I'm wondering if you want to vent rather than get advice?

For what it's worth (you can take what you want from this and leave the rest) if I were you I would take the pressure off myself by not looking at this as a 'date' but rather the next stage in a friendship. Could you casually invite him along to something socially where there are a few others in your circle already going? If he says no then no big deal you're still going to go and have a good time, rather than it being all or nothing. If he says yes then take it from there.

From what you write of him it sounds like you have the potential to be good friends.

I think I just feel so badly inside about it that I want to not feel badly. So I want to talk about it. That is my main motivation for coming to PC and posting any time I do; I usually already know, rationally, what I should be doing. I mean...kind of. And then sometimes not. Sometimes when it comes to relationships with other people, I feel like I've been left out of a big secret that everyone else is privy to; everyone else gets how to have normal friendships and love lives, and I wasn't told the secret. I have virtually no support system offline, so I come to talk about these things online.

As far as inviting him with my friend group...I'd have to have a group in order to do that. I have a few friends, but it's not a group by any means. I can't remember the last time I went out with more than one friend to anything--I just know them all from very different things. Any time I've tried to get people together (like this past Friday for my bday) it results in people bailing for whatever reason so I'm just like, "Forget this," and I cancel.

Regarding B, he has a female friend in town playing a show. She is another musician, and currently lives in AZ (so not near us at all). I believe they're just old friends, but I honestly don't know if there is more to it at this point because all I know about them is what I've gleaned from social media. I know he's posted a photo of her this morning, and was still with her this afternoon. So...I'm thinking I either missed my chance or read way into things. Or that she's in town playing her show and they're catching up and I'm being a crazy head for nothing. All I know is that I have felt a knot in my stomach over it all day which is completely ridiculous because I'm not dating this guy and have zero reason to be jealous. And I also know that this is so my pattern: get way too attached too soon, read into stupid things, make a fool out of myself, get jealous and crazy and weird, drive a guy who may have been somewhat interested so far away that it's like pushing people away is my freaking job and I get paid six figures to do it.

*sigh* You guys...I just want to be normal. I'm so so so sick of this.

PS I'm not trying to be a giant whiny PITA, and I know I'm being very borderline with all of this. I think, for me, talking about what I am feeling, articulating it, helps me to try to be a little more rational.

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by misskeena

PS I'm not trying to be a giant whiny PITA, and I know I'm being very borderline with all of this. I think, for me, talking about what I am feeling, articulating it, helps me to try to be a little more rational.

That's what this forum is for. Many hugs

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Originally Posted by misskeena

PS I'm not trying to be a giant whiny PITA, and I know I'm being very borderline with all of this. I think, for me, talking about what I am feeling, articulating it, helps me to try to be a little more rational.

You are not a PITA, you are reaching out to other human beings.

I'm glad talking it through is helping.

Thanks guys.

So yeah...

The stuff I was seeing as a clue that he was interested in me was actually not about me. Surprise (sarcasm). He is very ethereal and poetic and, the week immediately following the last visit was captioning his images with a lot of poetry that was seemed like it could have been directed at me (still does, but apparently there is another pale, redheaded girl who is not a singer who visits his shop). So yeah. Once again, I'm an idiot. Oh well.

[divine1966]

So do you know for sure the poetry or whatever other things are directed at some other girl, not you? Do you Know for sure? Also how romantic is that poetry? And does it mean he might not be possibly interested in you as well?

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Originally Posted by divine1966

So do you know for sure the poetry or whatever other things are directed at some other girl, not you? Do you Know for sure? Also how romantic is that poetry? And does it mean he might not be possibly interested in you as well?

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Heh...it's pretty darned romantic. It's hard to explain without posting some of it here, but he talks about being fearful and etc.

I don't know who it was directed to. It could have been no one (it's unlikely; he's artsy and has gotten poetic, but these were pretty open even for him). They were posted the week immediately following when he saw me last. There were a couple rather ambiguous ones, then the one which made me take notice talked about "pull back your hair," and "speak to me, pale animal" (I'm a pale, redhead) and a few other things. The next poem talked about "Walk away with me, away from closed smells, bells and doors" (like the salon?) and "It's okay if you're not a singer." THAT one had both my friend and I wondering...when I saw him last, he and I were talking about a particular song he wasn't familiar with, and he'd asked me to sing it. I was a music major years ago, but I have terrible stage fright so I clammed up and said no. He kept asking and said, "Does it matter that I want you to sing it?" Heh...no. He never got me to sing it. I explained my stage fright to him, and my stupid perfectionism, and he relented. I think, growing up in a similar household, he understands perfectionism.

For unrelated reasons, I had deleted my Instagram account earlier in the week (thus unfollowing him) and then started a new account. Once I saw this poem, I followed him again (which I was going to do anyway). After that poem, I started posting my own things. My response to it was a photo of telephone wires captioned with a boy and girl emoji with a telephone in between them (i.e. call me, silly). The following post from him said something about "Again you meet me here" and "Be patient with me"

And etc. There were two more of his posts that I followed with my own. The last one was on 4/9 and I posted something that talked about too many gray areas in life, and how if something is causing anxiety, fear, and pain it is best to back away for a bit. That is also the day I canceled my appointment for 4/24. He's posted several things since but...no poems.

He has a lot of female friends. Most of his band are female. He just had a female friend in town for the weekend (things I glean from social media). I don't think he's "with" any of them. But there is another girl he's tagged a few times on IG. She isn't part of his circle at all. She is also a pale redhead. And she is far, far more his type than I am. And, from the post he made this morning, a photo she took of Lake MI, he was with her early, early this morning (he posts Lake MI a lot, but he's usually taking the photo). So it is entirely possible (probable) that she is the one to whom he was referring in these poems.

Btw, yes, I do feel like a crazy person. But this is what I do; I read into everything since I both can't understand when someone is actually interested in me and I attract men who are emotionally unavailable. B has been attentive, flirty, teases, asks interested questions...and this is why I get thrown off.

[eskielover]

Hmmmmmm, he's a hair dresser......they learn to ask "interested in the person" questions to have conversations with their clients.....IMO, if he was interested in you he would be the one asking you out. He may not be emotionally unavailable.....just not emotionally attracted to you. If he was, you would know it because he would be the one trying to get closer to you in reality.....not just in your wishful thinking.

When the right guy comes into your life.....you both will know it....until then....just RELAX & don't worry about it....you won't miss it when it happens but you can't make something out of nothing either & be ware of all differences & issues you have with someone being that you said you are looking to settle down....time passing by.....it's better for it to pass by than live in a bad marriage like I did for 33 years because I didn't pay attention to the red flags that I saw & knew existed before I ended up getting married anyway.....I left 33 years later for exactly the red flags & more things that had shown up over all those years.

Don't push relationships....if they are meant to be they will be & the chemistry will be between both.

[divine1966]

Men that I ended up with are totally awesome from a distance and pretty awesome in relationship, yet unavailable and uncommitted. I wouldn't end up with them if they weren't attentive or warm or into me etc what I am trying to say he could be attentive and nice and sweet and even in love with you and yet wrong for you.

You never know until you try. At this stage I would want to know if he is available and if he is a good match and would ask him directly to put my mind at ease. I'd rather know.

I don't follow social media as I don't want to read into things and don't want to have drama. I don't want to follow anyone obsessively because that is exactly what I would do!!!!

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