So no dating for "socially awkward" guys?

Sorry, but can't resist saying, the above would be a perfect end to this very drawn out subject :P

oops, i mean second last post..... and ignore me I'm in a silly mood

^^^^ This .. I agree 100%

You can only beat a dead horse so long.

Sorry, but it's not the same. I don't approach women, not out of fear of rejection, but out of fear of being SHAMED by her or by others. Rejection is normal and acceptable. If the girl has a boyfriend, ANY guy who approaches her will be rejected. But not all of them will be shamed. Shaming is something completely different. Women are not shamed for showing interest in men. And gorgeous men are not shamed for showing interest in age-appropriate women. If an undesirable man approaches a woman, there will always be some excuse to shame him. Whether it's that "he's approaching her at work" or "he doesn't know her, he just likes her looks that's superficial" or "she has a boyfriend, that is disrespectful" there is always SOMETHING. But if the guy is desirable, none of these things will be brought up, because she likes it.

Sorry, but this is false. A lesbian woman would NEVER have violence directed at her for approaching a woman, unless you are in some small ultra-religious community. And even then it's mostly the gay men who face violence. Believe it or not it is actually more acceptable today for WOMEN to hit on women than it is for average men and DEFINITELY more acceptable than it is for older men.

I am actually not white, but you are delusional if you think a socially awkward average looking white guy has an advantage with girls over gorgeous guys of other races. Looks, age and social skills is what gives a guy the advantage, everything else is trivial.

That's all wonderful until you try and apply it in the real world. To think that the answers to everything lies squarely on your two shoulders is still going to come back to bite you in the butt, I hope you can handle the pain and rejection when that does happen.

If you keep swimming in the sea and keep getting bitten by sharks, there comes a time when you got to say to yourself let me rather get out of the sea and find my kicks elsewhere. You can't sit on the beach either and stare at the waves hoping to return to the water one day and all the sharks miraculously have died off. Become a big game hunter on land or whatever instead. Basically - change. That's all you can do. If something doesn't work - change it, and then, change it some more. And, once you think you've changed enough, you'll see - change it even more. And once you think well now I've gone far enough, go even doubly further, and then go some more. Eventually you're so far from where you were you don't even remember where, who or what that was.

That was the only thing I found worked for depression, which most people posting in this thread probably have. Change. Big change. Scary change. Leap of faith type change. I could possibly die doing this type change.

If you need to travel a 1000 miles to do it, do it. If you don't have a car, take a bus, if you can't take a bus, you better start walking. You gotta do what you gotta do to get to the top of the world, no matter what.

If there's one thing that defines people who succeed - they NEVER quit. They will cash in EVERYTHING if it means they can succeed.

In terms of the goal - you have to be EXTREMELY specific in what you want, and I mean specific. That is a key thing most people mess up.

So, let's talk about it in terms of finding your dream partner for example. You want that person to be kind, caring, accepting, accommodating, loving, attractive. Now, most people stop here - MISTAKE NUMBER 1. Don't stop here - this describes 5 of the 7 billion people out there, it's WAY too vague. Go further - the person needs to like your hobbies, they need to like the way you work, your working hours, your favourite relaxation techniques. NOW STILL it doesn't stop there - MISTAKE NUMBER 2 - it's not all about your qualities they like it's also about their qualities you like, what about them - what's their hobbies they have that you'd like, how long should they work, what's their favourite relaxation techniques?

Now you've nailed down all this. MISTAKE NUMBER 3 - people know what they want and then compromise after not finding it in the first few attempts!
DON'T CHANGE YOUR RULES! This is your game and your goal. Even if you have to date 1,000,000 people, do it! Keep going till you find 100% of what you want. 99% is a FAIL and you will feel it! A crate of 1000 green apples is ruined if 1 is red and 999 are green, not so? You need to go far and wide to replace red apple number 1 with green apple number 1000 to make it a green crate. That's the key, the successful person NEVER gives up, and I mean never gives up. I don't think people grasp that, so I'll say it again, they NEVER give up! And there is never compromise on any level.

Most of the issues here are stemming from "I want a girlfriend". What the f--k does that mean? Never a more vague question have I ever heard. What kind of girlfriend do you want? Must she be tall, short, blonde, black-haired, smart, stupid, ugly, pretty, fat, thin...? You get my point. Most guys stop at the quality of "attractive" or "sexy" and then are surprised when it all goes wrong. Attractive alone is not going to work, because the other qualities of both parties did not match the goal in mind. And, just because YOU placed a high value on looks, DOES NOT mean the others will not suddenly come into play. It took the tip of one iceberg off the coast of Nova Scotia to sink the Titanic, even though it nearly sailed across the whole Atlantic and was almost all the way from Ireland to New York. Another thing - if you fail in the end stage, you fail the whole thing! You need to carry through totally, not 90% of the way. You see, you actually know what you want all along, but you're just not tapped into all of it, because you've never really sat down hard and long enough and laid it out for you. Sure, you've sat down and thought about it long and hard, but you need to think some more.

It is 100 times harder to go from 99 to 100 than it is to go from 0 to 99. The last mile of a journey is the make or break mile. You can do the whole journey and throw the whole lot away in the last few yards.

Only when everything is right, then everything is right.

Relationships - it's a 50/50 partnership. So why are you making it 100 you and 0 her?! She needs to give her 50% too. Men trick themselves, they think when a woman is beautiful she's given way over 50% so he must match her by giving way more than 50%. YOU are putting that premium on beauty and you are tricking yourself. If you give 90% then truly I tell you, she'll give 10% !!! And when someone only gives 10%, IT WILL FAIL!

A relationship comes from both sides equally. One party can never exceed their 50%, no matter what qualities they have or what they say. So if you give your 50%, and that person is giving 10%, leave them and move to the other person who is going to give you the other 50% to make it a full 100.

Guys and girls - if a relationship feels like too much hard work, if any woman/man feels like too much hard work, then it is too much hard work and you can thank your lucky stars you didn't end up with that person.

Shadix - go find your other half, your one to complete the other 50. Don't give up, never give up!!! Those women you encountered only gave 10%, that's why you feel unfulfilled. They are trying to force you up to 90% to make up the difference, and that's why you feel so emotionally drained. Do you really want to end up with someone who saps you like that?

Be happy, be glad, you dodged a bullet my friend! Now go and find your one, the one you love. You CANNOT fail!

No women don't have special privileges.

Shadix get out there and start living. Stop reading things on the Internet

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This is where you do differ from my single friend, he doesn't believe they will shame him, he feels ashamed within himself as if he is not good enough - which is nonsense, but he recognises his own self-esteem issues.

Can I ask whether you personally have experiences of being directly shamed by a woman for showing an interest in her?

I have to agree with you, and I have found: shy average white guy = bottom of the list.

You don't get shamed directly, it's always an implied thing. You'll almost never get a girl shouting at you in public to leave her alone, it's usually "shown" to you by ignoring you/your calls and then a week later flaunting a new boyfriend in a place she knows you will see her with him. Girls never verbally shame guys, they emotionally shame guys by "sending you a message".

But, that being said, giving up is out of the question. I know that one day somewhere, some girl will not do this. As I said before, even if you have to date 1,000,000 people, somewhere it will all work out in the end!

Shadix not only you apparently know everything about dating without ever dating yourself but now you also know more about lesbians than they know about themselves. How is it working for you? How all of this helps to live better life?

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No, YOU are wrong. I HAVE had violence directed at me, I HAVE been kicked out of places, I HAVE had all kinds of hate and prejudice thrown at me, in public, for being a lesbian and starting a conversation with another woman in order to determine if she is gay and might be interested. Oh yeah, and that was in San Francisco, where I'm from. So, no, obviously, it is not easier to be a lesbian or a woman. Wow, you really are entitled if you think that!!!

Would copies of my hospital records from being beaten up for TALKING to another woman help you believe that it's real? oh, and she actually was interested. however, her brother was not so keen on the idea.

Well that's news to me. How long ago was this? From what I see people are pretty tolerant to that kind of stuff here. It's pretty common for even straight women to mess around with other women at clubs and stuff. I have even seen some people theorize that all women are actually either bisexual or lesbian.

And in terms of dating, yes I think it is easier to be a woman and even a lesbian woman. What does that have to do with entitlement? Do you even know what the word entitlement means?

The fact is this, the number of men who can't get a date is MUCH higher than the number of women, straight or lesbian, who can't get dates. So how can you say it's harder for women?

Just fyi, if a man had approached that woman, especially an older man, he would have been beaten up just as badly. The only difference is that in that case, people would be applauding the brother for protecting his sister from a "potential predator", whereas in your situation everyone probably looked at him as a psycho.

Well, I don't think that women usually shame the guy directly to his face. Usually they will just silently judge him and then go gossip to their friends about how weird and creepy he is. I hear overhear stuff like that all the time. And aside from that, it's just in the way they look at the guy and talk to him.

And to be honest, part of it is also just me feeling ashamed myself. I sort of choose to believe I am somewhat good looking(wishful thinking maybe), but in reality I am not fully convinced of this and there are many things that make me doubt it. And I do have this feeling that if I unattractive then it is pathetic for me to approach nice looking women thinking they will be interested in me. It is like those really bad singers who go on American Idol to audition.

Shadix, the second paragraph to your post sounds so much like my lovely friend, and tbh like me at different times in my life.

I think this is a confidence/esteem issue at heart.

Let's just say you did approach a woman and she rejected you and said something rude about you to her friends. Is this really the kind of woman you would want to be with?

All women are not the same, we don't all go for the same types of guys, just as well. I promise you there are women out there who even if they don't want to go out with a guy will handle the situation with dignity and kindness, and I also promise you there are many women out there who find shyness attractive in a man.

To be sure it takes trial and error and putting yourself out there a bit, it's a risk and that can feel scary if you are a little shy/socially awkward.

Can I ask do you have any female friends? Having women who are not interested in you 'in that way' but like you as a person to hang out with might be a good thing for you if you don't already have it. It would also be a safe way to learn a little bit more about women, getting to feel confident talking with them without that 'all or nothing' pressure hanging over you.

Clearly, you are uneducated, homophobic, and-- yes-- entitled. You have straight privilege and are so ignorant that you think your personal struggle is more difficult than the struggle of everyone else. No one in their right mind would claim that dating as a straight man is easier than dating as a lesbian. Your post is extremely offensive. I have spent my life being discrimated against for being gay, and here you are telling me that my experience doesn't matter or isn't real. And that a man would have been beaten up if he had been in my situation-- which, of course, is a stupid and ignorant thing to say. Him and his friends called me a dyke, beat me up, and then had the owner of the restaurant kick me out and put me, bleeding, on the sidewalk. It was during the Pride Parade in San Francisco and I was 17 years old. I also cannot count the number of times I have been told I'm not allowed to use the women's bathroom or locker room because they're afraid I'm a predator. My first year in college, the girls actually refused to let me shower in the girl's bathroom and so I used the guy's shower. While all of my friends were dating in high school and college, I just sat there and tried not to get called names and insults for being gay. I had bigger problems like not being beaten up and finding a place to shower, as opposed to dating. Or getting sexually assaulted by men who wanted to turn me straight-- because that has also happened.

Oh yeah, and when I do date now, let's remember that approximately 2% of the population identifies as lesbian. So, while a straight man has about 48% of the population who might be interested in him, lesbians have 2%. Within that 2%, you then have to account for all of the criteria you're looking for in another person. Oh, and drunk girls at bars "messing around" to turn on their boyfriends is not what any lesbian is looking for. If a lesbian is looking to date or get married (which, you know, was illegal until last month), she wants someone who is genuinely interested in a monogamous, lesbian relationship-- not "messing around" at bars while guys clap.

Sending you hugs scorpiosis. It took me awhile to process post about straight girls messing around in clubs. Like it has anything to do with gays or lesbians having difficulties in the dating world or being discriminated. So offensive. Or saying that heterosexuals have harder time dating than homosexuals. Really? In what universe?

I think op just doesn't know any better or in fact knows so very little about the world that it is not even worth to waste your energy being upset with him. He doesn't know anything. And doesn't try to learn

Sorry you had to read that horrendous post

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Thank you for sharing. I am saddened by just once again how horrible people can be, most certainly highlighted by your harrowing story. There is no doubt in my mind that the men and women you speak of are the one's responsible for generating the images in our minds of each gender all of us have shared in this thread. I am so sorry you had to endure such absolutely horrendous treatment by those men, and also the emotional torture by your female counterparts at college.

I think it has become pretty clear at this point in this entire thread that each of us that have posted have been scathed by encounters with people whom we hoped to develop a fondness for, doing what only comes natural - love. It is so heartbreaking to hear of how people have been mistreated, the genuine fears that have manifested in people regarding dating and relationships, and the inevitable resentment which has developed.

I'm pretty sure love was never intended to be so marred by so many bad experiences. I truly wish that all who have posted in this thread will some day find someone who makes life totally worthwhile and renders all this immense suffering to naught. Bless us all May love finally triumph.

This post is offensive. Out of respect for homosexuals please remove it or edit

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Shadix. You need to get off the ice or skate. you spend all your time observing others and interpreting what is going on with them. If i paid money to join a gym i would not be standing around watching who is talking to who. get interested in your own life and make a life for yourself. people are drawn to people who do that. stop trying to get into other's lives or work out what they are doing. become absorbed in your life - gym or work or study.

i was once working in a place where i was very busy and not at all interested in the social goings on because i had limited energy and needed it for work i was completely absorbed in. women then started asking me out

I am closing this thread while the team decides if it goes against guidelines.