Bar phone number exchange

Hello all,

I've been emotionally bent out of shape about something and would appreciate any feedback on it.

I think it's only fair to provide the full disclosure first: I am in what I think is called a "situationship" with a woman I met a several years ago on a dating site. I initially basically "friend-zoned" her, which I have always thought is much more commonly done by women than to women. But anyway, she told me she initially thought "I am dating, I have enough friends." But she also said she valued my honesty in not playing games with her about how I felt.

Fast forward to just before the Covid pandemic. We happened to re-connect, and even though at first I reiterated the friend thing, I started to realize how much we had in common and how I was starting to enjoy spending time with her - as more than just friends. And for more than a year now it has had the feel of destiny about it.

I have been divorced for more than 9 years and have my own garage full of baggage so I am not saying I am any kind of catch. I live paycheck to paycheck which is embarrassing to me at my age, I hate my job and so on. In fact, I drink too much and started to realize I have a binge drinking problem. On top of which I devote way too much of my social life to being in bars.

Thing is, she and I can talk for hours over drinks (yes I think drinking is an issue between us in this regard, leads to kissing etc. when we might not otherwise do so), and at one dinner, we had a lot to drink and she leaned in and kissed me. I responded in kind. This happened a few more times, but each time I felt more and more and didn't need to drink to want to be with her and kiss her. Things progressed to intimacy and dating, even though we were in some denial and thought it was some sort of variation of hanging out as friends.

So, all in all I would say I have no right to call her my girlfriend, but we are definitely not just friends, and we meet for what I think any reasonable person would call dates. Day trips, dinners, TV and chill at each other's places, and so on.

Anyway, last week after a busy day at work I asked her if she wanted to meet up for a drink. She did, but for some reason that night I felt less connection from her. Even though I tend to overthink things, I don't think my observation was wrong. A lot of it was probably what she said - she had had to get up early for work so I get it - we were both tired.

However, at some point the bar manager asked if we could move from our table to the bar so they could fit a bigger party where she and I were sitting. We said OK.

Meanwhile there's this other guy whom I know loosely because we met at the same bar a year or two ago while watching football and we'd traded Instagram info. He's friendly enough, but I started to feel like he kept coming over to us to ask us to sit with him.

He had once sent me a message asking if I wanted to meet him at the same bar to watch a game, so that part seemed just friendly I suppose. But that night, once she and I sat at the bar, he walked over one last time and stayed standing next to her.

Sitting on his other side was another one his bar friends, and that guy was really weird because it was hard to understand his mannerisms and what he was saying. And he and this other guy had seemed to communicating across the bar, making me feel like he was trying to be some kind of wingman for the other dude. When he got up to go to the bathroom, he told this other guy "sit, sit." The guy didn't sit (probably because standing allowed him to be closer to her) - she said later she had no memory of the guy saying "sit, sit."

So this guy and my date started talking and apparently they both grew up in the neighborhood and so on, and I noticed that she became far more animated in talking with him in a way that she usually is with me. I faded into a sort of bystander and I could see her body language was turned toward him and away from me; usually she sits very close to me and is very demonstrative with me.

Finally, the guy takes out his phone and says to her we have to trade numbers yada yada (yada being this youthful connection). And she agreed. Immediately I had a visceral feeling of anger and humiliation inside, very physical. He made a feeble disclaimer like "I don't mean anything" and I responded equally feebly with "hey you're both grown-ups."

I settled up quickly and I guess she followed my lead and we left the bar. At which point I asked her, why do I feel like such a fool right now? We got into a sort of argument but her basic stance was that she had no idea what I was talking about and she saw nothing wrong with what she did because he was this guy from her same neighborhood.

I tend to be passive-aggressive when I get upset, so I returned to the bar the next day and texted her something like "maybe I will make friends with a girl and she will give me her number." In the moment I admit I wasn't thinking about making things better.

I've been angry ever since but I'm not even sure I am right. Am I just being a possessive asshole? Or is what she did wrong - even if we are in some in-between phase between friends and a true couple? I told a friend about this and he said end it, on top of which he said, if she said she doesn't need more friends, why did she give this guy her number as a friend?

I really enjoy her company, but I just feel foolish now. Will she do that again? Does she think she was wrong? Was she even wrong? And is all this just a way for me to use jealousy to prevent further intimacy and vulnerability with her because I'm not sure I'm even stable enough to have a real relationship?

Sorry for the long post. Also, I know a lot of advice will start with - or consist entirely of - telling me that alcohol is the problem. I agree it is a significant problem for me, but I also want to know at a basic level about this situation and incident if you have that feedback.

Thanks for any help.

Have you defined the relationship?

It doesn’t mind if she was or not wrong. You didn’t like it. And this is what, in my opinion, counts.
What about instead of using a passive aggressive response, you talk to her straight away and tell her what you didn’t like. Let’s see how her reaction is and what your guts tell you about her reaction and what she tells you.

Good point from @leomama. I was also gonna tell you that you have somehow to have clear what you want from this relationship and communicate it to her.

i agree with the other wise and wonderful posters that perhaps it would be best to clarify the relationship status. i think it may not Help anyone in the long run to stay in a confused situation. i am not sure if she was wrong about this since you weren't in a relationship officially although she perhaps could already know you had feeling for her. Then again maybe she didn't know that and this was truly just a friendly conversation. i think being Honest is the best option overall at least i Hope so. So Sorry about this. Please do not give up in general. Sending many safe, warm hugs to BOTH you, @BermudaRectangle, your Family, your Friends and ALL of your Loved Ones! Keep fighting and keep rocking NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, OK?!

“ And is all this just a way for me to use jealousy to prevent further intimacy and vulnerability with her because I'm not sure I'm even stable enough to have a real relationship?”

^This is the big question to answer for yourself. Do you want to have a real relationship with her? If so, can you become stable enough?

The phone number exchange incident is a good conversation starter with her. You can say that you thought a relationship was progressing with her and felt confused and a bit jealous when she gave him her number right in front of you. This conversation will define your relationship and she’ll tell you how she feels.

Just my opinion: I’m traditional in dating do’s and dont’s. If I were out with a guy that I kiss, I would not be giving my number to another right in front of him, unless it was legit business or long-lost cousin.

That sounds really rough, and I’m sorry for that. You seem to both have different ideas about the relationship you have with each other. I’m prepared to give adding another friend to contacts after saying you have enough already a grudging pass, but in this case, not how it was actually done. She didn’t just give another guy her number in front of you, but she practically shut you out while they were talking. They are “both adults” and might not have meant anything, but her behaviour (at best) was rude and inconsiderate of you.
Have you heard of a saying that goes “the problem is not what I did, it’s your reaction to what I did”?
It probably would have been better to discuss how it made you feel, calmly and more directly later on, but I think your reaction/hurt itself is understandable. Don’t let her tell you feeling angry for getting shut out (orchestrated, at that) is the issue, rather than how she (and those other guys) treated you.

It didn’t sound like you two are actually a couple. You’ve known each other that long and by now you’d know if you two are serious about each other. You don’t seem to know. Plus you don’t feel stable enough to be in a relationship

It sounds you two are meeting more as friends even though some kissing takes place (usually when intoxicated). I don’t see why she can’t give her number to guys.

If my husband (now or when we dated) gave women his number it would be ridiculous but our relationship is clearly very defined and is monogamous. Yours isn’t specified.

If you feel you want more than friends or friends with.benefits situation snd want exclusive monogamous romantic relationship, then speak up. Otherwise I don’t think you have rights to demand she must not give men her number. Sure it would be wiser if she didn’t do it in front of you but situation presented itself

If you are not a couple, then you are not a couple.

I don't think you can expect her to act like she is connected with you when you question whether you are worthy and capable of having a connection.

I think you can make progress on who you are and what you can do--and not just regarding her--when you get serious about addressing alcohol.

I don't see that she did anything wrong.

Your relationship with her is undefined. She is perfectly entitled to give her number to other people and/or make friends. She is also allowed to change her mind re wanting to have another friend.

As you said, and I agree with you, you acted in a passive-aggressive - even childish - manner and worse went to a bar saying you might speak to another female?! Which led to an argument.

The mature thing to do would be to have had a frank discussion with her & clarify your (i.e. you and hers) relationship - rather than being angry and playing these games with her. Otherwise, she can do whatever she wants with whomever she wants. Being upset about it in these circumstances really, is on you. Not her.

Hello,

First thanks for all of the helpful feedback. I just want to add some more context based on what you have written back so far.

I think there are three things going on.

1. I had to admit to her that I live paycheck to paycheck and am trying to het out of debt and don't have extra money to travel. I felt compelled to reveal that to her after she became increasingly upset that I seemed unwilling to travel with her. As time has gone on, this, along with the drinking and my insecurity, has made her understandably more distant and less lovey-dovey.

2. Based on some reading I did, I seem to have a very insecure attachment style. So it makes sense that I am prone to being overly sensitive if I am out with her and see her give her number to another man, even if our relationship is not defined. That insecurity is definitely something I have to work on.

3. Even though our relationship is not defined, following is a sample of what we have done together and said to each other - most of it mutually.

- dated (not just dinner, I have heard her tell others on the phone that she is "on a date")
- kissed, petted, had sex together in each other's beds
- taken a couple of day trips together
- held hands as we walked
- used terms of endearment with each other such as baby, babe, love, etc.
- she has invited me to travel with her
- sending kiss and love emojis and her repeatedly texting me that she thinks I'm cute
- I would walk her home at the end of the night, just the two of us, and either kiss her good night or she would invite me up to watch tv/movies, drinks, etc.
- (This was one-sided) She introduced me to her sister, some of her friends, her teenage son, his father. I had not yet introduced her to any of my "people."
- I don't know about her, but I had told her I had stopped dating, checking dating apps, and so on.

To me that seems like a lot more than just friends. As such, I respectfully disagree with those who said she did *nothing* wrong by giving her number to the guy in front of me. However, if I try to keep in mind my insecure attachment style mentioned above, I would say she was rude/inconsiderate (i.e. even as a friend) and I am just perhaps unfairly trying to raise it to the level of cheating/romantic wrongdoing given the other things she and I were doing prior to that night. Furthermore, I still recall that she said she would have been very upset had I done the same thing in front of her by giving my number to a woman. That doesn't strike me as fair if such behavior is doing nothing wrong.

Finally, I have had a couple of other bouts of jealousy and feelings of abandonment:
1. She invited me to a dinner party for a professional group she belongs to. After introducing me to the host, she went about socially and dancing with other folks and I was pretty much on my own. She took me along when we went to dinner after, and she openly stated to the whole table what she was missing in her search for a relationship (so in that context she clearly had me there as a friend). But one of the guys there went in on her saying how he would be the man who would satisfy all the things she mentioned. When he raised his glass to her, she toasted him back. After the dinner, when I assumed she and I would walk home alone as usual, that guy somehow decided that he would also walk her home. She agreed, at which point I felt instantly sad and jealous and abruptly said goodnight and went home on my own, crying all the way. Everyone had been drinking btw, which made my reaction worse. At the same time, she later admitted that he has long been after her so that in that case I was not imagining things.

We had an emotional phone call that night in which I asked her, will you be my girlfriend? She didn't answer. And the next day she said she wanted to talk because she didn't know how much of what we said was alcohol-induced. She never did answer my question.

2. The day after she took me to dinner for my birthday, I went out drinking alone. After sending a few texts to her and not hearing back, I sent her a torrent of drunk texts worried that she was ignoring me or dating someone else or that I did not satisfy her. I could have sworn that her texts showed as read but she later told me she left her phone in a restaurant all night and there was no way they would have shown as read. She just had not had her phone with her. After that she has (rightly) said she doesn't like all the drinking. She is busy with work this week and traveling next week so I wouldn't be able to see her in person even she wanted to, I suppose. She has stopped the lovey-dovey stuff completely. I can't blame her. This week so far she hasn't even texted me unless she is replying to a text I sent her.

What is strange is that I said friends only at first, precisely because I was afraid of not being able to give her what she needed in a relationship and wanted to be up-front about that. But I was unsure about a relationship with anyone, not just her. So that has been confusing to both of us as we grew closer over the past year or so.

I despise being at the mercy of my emotions, and she herself said, presciently, that hanging out like this meant we would risk falling in love with each other. Which I think happened. However, I am sick to my stomach because I have bonded strongly with her in a situation where I don't think I am good for her (given all my issues) even if I did ask her that we should define the relationship. Ironically it is almost as if she and I have switched places, romantically speaking.

Thanks again.

I predict that when you stop using alcohol, you will see positive change in these areas.

She took you as her guest to a professional event where you knew no one and turned you loose? And then, to an entire dinner table, made comments she had to know would be hurtful to you? And then basically devoted herself to this other guy? And, separately, evaded your effort to define the relationship?

How much do you think she would be willing to help you with stopping?

Thanks, Bill.

She and I have both not had a drink in the past 2 days. So she is supportive about it.

Also, to clarify, she was already at that party. The party was already on. She invited me over a little while after I made that snarky comment about giving my number to a hypothetical woman who wanted to "make friends" with me. I have no idea if there is any connection between the two.

My concern is along the lines of the following really interesting article that I found:
The Price of Distrust: Trust, Anxious Attachment, Jealousy, and Partner Abuse

I suspect that once I had to reveal my financial issues, my anxious attachment jealousy started rising. That is my issue. This is not to excuse what she did or did not do, but it does strike me as a plausible explanation of my behavior. I don't like the jealous and nasty (or weepy and insecure) things I said at those times. Also, to be fair to her, financial issues are tough so I can understand if revealing those made her step back and think about our possible future.

If I were more secure about myself, I think (a) I would be less jealous about possibly ambiguous situations or possible romantic rivals, and (2) I would be more assertive about defining the relationship and being willing to let it go if she were not treating me fairly or with respect.

Also, when I get texts, she sometimes jokes "that must be one of your other ladies," so I think I am not the only one who has jealousy/confusion about our relationship....

Thanks again

Congratulations on two days without a drink!

Thanks, Bill. Much appreciated.

One step at a time. Good job

I slipped last night. I wanted to speak with her about our interactions and she and I ended up meeting for a talk. We went to a bar and I had a beer, she had a wine. As I became hurt about her confusion over whether we can proceed in our relationship, I had a second beer which upset her because she had asked me to limit to one drink or share the remainder of her wine with her.

Only two drinks versus my usual 6 or 7, but (1) I defied her reasonable wish and (2) it devolved into my usual argumentative accusations about her wrong actions. I have to work more on the drinking and also on increasing my emotional maturity to avoid these emotional escalations - yes alcohol tends to make them worse, but even sober I know my anxious attachment and insecurity are far greater than I had realized and need immediate attention.

One step at a time. I'll keep reporting back.

Thanks as always.

It sounds like she cares for you. It’s good that you are trying to curb the drinking, and it seems that is something she encourages you to do as well. Maybe you do have a future with her, if you can get it under control. Maybe don’t go to a bar next time, rather go for coffee?

Openness and nonjudgmental awareness are the essential first steps to making positive changes. Good work!

To me, regardless of what you said in the very beginning about just being friends, this has evolved into dating without saying it's exclusive dating outright to each other. Her giving her number to a guy at the bar in front of you, given all the intimacy between you prior to that was just downright rude of her, imo. It was also rude of her to abandon you at HER social event to go dance with other people while you sat on the sidelines, and then she allowed another man to walk her home when she had invited you to this social event? Very rude and inconsiderate. I understand that you may have insecurity issues, abandonment issues and a binge drinking problem. and it's great you are so aware of each issue, however, imo, she is being very rude, hurtful and inconsiderate towards you. These are not things that you do to someone you care about. These are things you do to someone you do not care about. I would personally dump the relationship and move on to someone else who will truly care for you because in my opinion, she doesn't give a rat's *** about you.

I like a lot how you are being able to look at yourself and see what may be going on inside you to explain your reactions. It will make you wiser and more powerful. It means so much for your well-being. For yourself.
From this position you can face to whatever. You will know the answer. Take you time.

I know this is not what you want to hear. I’m not saying anything you need to hear now.
The thing is that I think people’s behaviours are not so easy to explain and only time can tell you what this woman feels for you.
You already made things clear with her. Give her a prudencial time and make then your own choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Have Hope To me, regardless of what you said in the very beginning about just being friends, this has evolved into dating without saying it's exclusive dating outright to each other. Her giving her number to a guy at the bar in front of you, given all the intimacy between you prior to that was just downright rude of her, imo. It was also rude of her to abandon you at HER social event to go dance with other people while you sat on the sidelines, and then she allowed another man to walk her home when she had invited you to this social event? Very rude and inconsiderate. I understand that you may have insecurity issues, abandonment issues and a binge drinking problem. and it's great you are so aware of each issue, however, imo, she is being very rude, hurtful and inconsiderate towards you. These are not things that you do to someone you care about. These are things you do to someone you do not care about. I would personally dump the relationship and move on to someone else who will truly care for you because in my opinion, she doesn't give a rat's *** about you.

Exactly & I am betting that is EXACTLY what she is telling him without wanting to say it in outright words. I remember having a good discussion with a guy I dated a few times in college. We didn't connect on the dating but we had great conversations. He said that to avoid an emotional mess breaking up, he would do things that would make the girl mad at him & want to leave the relationship. Ya think girls/women don't do the same thing? Read the message.....it is pretty clear that she is NOT interested in you as someone exclusive & may just be using you for sex or someone to be with when there are no other options

YES. And actions speak far louder than words and her actions say everything about how she truly feels.

It seems like every interaction you have involved alcohol. If whatever she says or does is also under the influence I’d not take anything seriously, neither good or bad. Sadly people, whose life evolves around mind altering substances, have impaired ability to make good judgement or sound decisions. Perhaps if you two sober up, you could take a look at what’s really going on. Until then it’s hard to say anything for sure. Good job trying to quit

Thanks for the additional feedback. I think I should add some more info and context. For starters, she and I are in our early 50s. Not sure it matters here, but I don't think I mentioned our ages. For me it matters because I feel I am having a mid-life crisis. Also in fairness to her, I got an earlier thing wrong. She did not ignore my question "will you be my girlfriend?" The next day we met and talked and she basically said "not yet" due to the issues.

TishaBuv:
-----
It sounds like she cares for you. It’s good that you are trying to curb the drinking, and it seems that is something she encourages you to do as well. Maybe you do have a future with her, if you can get it under control. Maybe don’t go to a bar next time, rather go for coffee?
-----

Yes, I think she cares in a way for me. But I sense a shift since I mentioned my money issues and since I openly commented on the two incidents where I got jealous of the guys. I agree that going for coffee so our minds are clear is a better idea. At the risk of psychoanalyzing her, my guess is that she leans anxious avoidant but values at least our friendship, which causes confusion from her side in addition to the confusion from my side. She also pointed out voluntarily at one point that her father is something of a womanizer and that before her death her mother had been pretty hurt by his actions.

My theory is that she has been attracted to me for certain qualities ranging from friendship to genuine erotic attraction. But I am not a womanizer. Not bragging, I couldn't be one if I wanted to. But maybe she has a different sense of flirting and jealousy as a result of seeing her father's behavior. And during that recent argument, I recalled that the guy who ended up accompanying her home that night asked me at the party "is there something there?" and I replied "I'm trying." Her response was that she knew nothing of that conversation so it was an issue of his challenging me that had nothing to do with her. Which she is probably right about.

Nevertheless, it makes me wonder if, after the money issue and my emotional reactions on the jealousy that I failed some unconscious or only partly conscious test about the kind of man she wants in those cases - responsible and in charge but also understanding of flirting dynamics, in other words a man who won't act out or get immature if she flirts but will step in if the other guy is challenging too much. Seems like she does want monogamy but it is in her mind at this high bar where anything short of some commitment level that she decides, she is free to explore.

Have Hope:
-----
To me, regardless of what you said in the very beginning about just being friends, this has evolved into dating without saying it's exclusive dating outright to each other. Her giving her number to a guy at the bar in front of you, given all the intimacy between you prior to that was just downright rude of her, imo. It was also rude of her to abandon you at HER social event to go dance with other people while you sat on the sidelines, and then she allowed another man to walk her home when she had invited you to this social event? Very rude and inconsiderate. I understand that you may have insecurity issues, abandonment issues and a binge drinking problem. and it's great you are so aware of each issue, however, imo, she is being very rude, hurtful and inconsiderate towards you. These are not things that you do to someone you care about. These are things you do to someone you do not care about. I would personally dump the relationship and move on to someone else who will truly care for you because in my opinion, she doesn't give a rat's *** about you.
-----

I don't know if she doesn't give a rat's ***** about me. The thought crossed my mind for the first time during these past few weeks. She still doesn't think she did anything wrong, so I'm not sure there's any point in rehashing it. I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt and say she does care about me, but that doesn't excuse her behavior; nor does it mean she cares in the sense of a real relationship.

I guess I had been focused on her statements about being friend-zoned and took them as she cared about me enough to be upset and being turned down romantically at first. But of course it could just be that she couldn't believe that a guy would ever do that to her. I told her each time along the way that I did that to be honest and not to string her along. Now that I have developed feelings for her, I feel impotent and helpless due to my money troubles, and (thanks, anxious attachment, I see you lol) I am starting to have more emotional reactions about my potential romantic rivals. As if the tables have turned so to speak.

But she herself said something that I think is very true, and I should follow her lead. She said in therapy she discovered that she can't control what other people do, only what she does. So I have been trying to practice that myself (and also saw an article affirming this).

For example, I can feel jealous in a certain situation but that doesn't mean I should act on the jealousy. Very hard for me as I always feel like I am being made a fool of. But I am going to breathe and not act out in those situations. We'll see how it goes.

eskielover:
-----
He said that to avoid an emotional mess breaking up, he would do things that would make the girl mad at him & want to leave the relationship. Ya think girls/women don't do the same thing? Read the message.....it is pretty clear that she is NOT interested in you as someone exclusive & may just be using you for sex or someone to be with when there are no other options
-----

Yes that may be the case now. As I mentioned earlier, it seemed like the reverse situation before, but of course things can always change.

divine1966:
-----
It seems like every interaction you have involved alcohol. If whatever she says or does is also under the influence I’d not take anything seriously, neither good or bad. Sadly people, whose life evolves around mind altering substances, have impaired ability to make good judgement or sound decisions. Perhaps if you two sober up, you could take a look at what’s really going on. Until then it’s hard to say anything for sure.
-----

Agreed. I tend to binge which is tough. But I can also decide to go for stretches with no drinking at all. Next time she and I meet I will suggest we skip the alcohol.

-----
Good job trying to quit
-----
Thanks, very much appreciated. It's not easy, but I am trying.