[kimmydawn]

I need help with this, y'all.

In years of therapy I acknowledged the need for boundaries in my life...especially with my birth family as they recognized no lines that couldn't be crossed.

From there, I was able to establish some very important boundaries for my mental/emotional wellness, as well as those for my family.

Good job, Kim, right?

Well, it's not over there. I kinda thought it would be. I had the sight to see the need and then establish boundaries for self care, but it's such a struggle to maintain them. I didn't prepare for that part of it.

I thought once I made myself clear and followed my thoughts/requests with clear action and example that would be that, I guess. However, those in my life don't see it quite that way...lol. I spent years being "the doormat and rescuer" -- my entire life actually -- and I made my stand continually and repetitively for months. After they upped the ante and I held firm, everyone (in appearance) kinda fell into the new routine. I thought it was over.

It wasn't. It continues when I least expect it, and when I'm already spread thin, it's hard for me to battle for "self". Will I have to stay in that "boundary battle mode" forever with my birth family?

Also, how do those that I've established boundaries with know the perfect timing to bounce back with the "old tactic"? It seems that they know when I'm not doing well, then pull out the old bag of tricks.

I guess my question is...is there a way to foresee the old behaviors beginning before the boundaries are crossed again? I don't have the energy for 24/7 hypervigilence anymore, nor do I want it.

It's next to impossible to restrict their access to me so that I don't have to be so hypervigilent because of my caring for my little man (nephew). It's so hard to maintain all of the time and not want to just give in...just for a little while.

I hope I made some kind of sense. It's hard to explain.

Thanks!

KD

[Christina86]

Hi KD

Don't know what I could say that would help, but good for you for at least establishing the boundaries in the first place - I haven't been able to establish good boundaries yet at all.

Unless THEY make the effort, chances are they're probably going to keep trying to venture over your boundaries. Some habits are hard to break.

Sorry, I'm not very encouraging. Just my experience.

Take care of yourself.

[Perna]

I think you have to decide that the other side "doesn't get it" even when it looks like they have. I don't think they are clever enough to know when you are down and renew the attack, etc. I think they are trying to cross the boundary any way/time they can.

Can you think of some "stronger" ways you have enforced before and make them "automatic" and not needing "energy" from you? Push a button and the gate closes, tank trap comes up, etc.? Some of the problem, I think, sounds like it comes from your perceptions of yourself and them? Go for "real" and don't be nice about it. Snap at them! If you've told them before and they cross, use the automatic anger and don't be "shy" about it.

Yesterday I was visiting the grandchildren and my grandson (1-1/2) bit his mother. That's a no-no and he was strongly reprimanded, "No!" and given a serious time-out (my daughter-in-law left "him"/the room). No one smiled at his tears, etc. Your family crossing your borders as adults; they're not getting it! They are acting like children and get treated that way! Remove yourself (as opposed to them?). Grab your nephew and retreat to your car/go elsewhere with him where you can't be "reached" for awhile; library, fun eating place, etc.?

Don't be held hostage, for anyone. One person cannot be there for another all the time, no matter how much they might want to, not for a spouse, child, anyone! One's priority in life has to be one's self because without one's self in good shape, there can be no others to be helped. I try to remember the old airline admonition to get the oxygen mask on the adults first and then help the children with theirs. Figure out beforehand a plan to pick your battles? Always remember though that you have the emotional "brain" -- you know what's happening and can "plan" for it, the other "side" is just reacting, not responding. I love thinking about the difference between those two words and working to learn to "respond" to situations, not merely react. They're "blind" but you don't have to be because you're smarter about the situation in all ways.

excellent post, perna!!!

[Wants2Fly]

Tough questions.

(((((((((((((((KimmieDawn)))))))))))))))))))))

[okiedokie]

Hi KD,
Changing boundaries especially with family is a tough job. Kudos to you for doing that!

Maintaining them with family is ALSO a tough job. I think you're hoping for the new behaviors to become the automatic, unconscious ones and I don't think that will happen. It could. But I think it will always take conscious effort on the part of your family members, and reminding from you.

Having said that, I suck at boundaries. Thank goodness we're all more rational with OTHER people's issues!

((((((KD)))))))

Okie

[Wants2Fly]

KD -- I didn't have time to write a greater length before. Establishing boundaries involves retraining our family members, after we have already spent years training them to step all over us.

When I was working with a T on this, I found that family and friends went nuts when I stood up for myself, even in mild-mannered ways. Suddenly, I was selfish, etc. -- trying to guilt me back into behaviors that served the FM and friends.

She suggested that I give them lots of praise (positive reinforcement) when they behaved in ways that observed my new boundaries. It really helped with my mother. On the other hand, a friend I've known for 30 years is mysteriously absent from my life, without giving a reason, despite my repeated efforts to find out whether she is all right or I did something.

I don't think establishing boundaries is like applying gorilla glue -- one time and it's fixed forever. It's more like dieting. We have to keep on with the new behaviors on a daily basis.

Cheers, hugs, and bravas for you for trying.

[kimmydawn]

(((((((((((((((((( everyone ))))))))))))))))))))

Thank you so much for the understanding and support.

Yes, when I first started to "mark my lines" EGADS there was mayhem! I was horrible, selfish, self-centered and every line drawn was pushed. My mother did several very dramatic things to "bring me around". Whew, it was hard.

It was so exhausting, but worth it, to keep them in place. When I fell off the wagon, I got right back on it. Pretty soon I was able to show a consistency with the "new Kim".

However, after my family having over 40 years of the old Kim, they still rally up the strength and resolve to fight for her at times and it seems that the have the perfect time to do it...like they can sense when I'm wounded to come in for the attack. That's when I feel I'm fighting too many battles at once.

One thing I've learned, is that when I feel that way and they ramp up, I have the strength to do a "no contact" until I can hold my own. That can be exhausting in itself and now that my mother's aging with no husband, it's guilt inducing for me.

All in all, it's SO MUCH BETTER and one of the better battles, and most worthy, that I've ever fought. It just appears neverending....whew.

Again, thank you so much for caring and sharing, but mostly for the support. I so need it right now.

Love,

KD

it really is supportive to have one's boundaries honored. it's scary when someone just mows over you.

[(JD)]

I think it IS never-ending.

I wonder if you would think it selfish and feel guilty if your having to go into "no contact" was due to say, a flare of MS tremor? Why think any differently for your own concerns?

What good does it do ANYone if you are unable to function?

IMO your family is still running on their family dynamics. You, however, have pulled out of that rulebook. They do move in on you because it's ingrained that they find a scapegoat, attack the weak, accuse someone because someone has to be at fault and made to do better...etc etc etc. They haven't changed, you have.

The reason you haven't had to be on constant vigilance is because YOU have kept your boundaries intact...far enough out that you didn't feel like hypervigilance...though maybe it still is? Just more comfortable?

Go back to what works. You might need to adjust it a bit from time to time, but I doubt it's necessity ever goes away.

Just my POV.

[Perna]

KD, LAUGH! If they're "ramping up" you've got 'em beat :-)

just always do what is best for you........families are notorious for being a pain in the ________ when we have mental health issues......

[drclay]

This discussion of maintaining boundries has been excellent...yes, you have to stand your grounds and be tough but I liked Wants to Fly's ideas about praising the changes others are apparently trying to make. In some cases you can even anticipate any criticism or opposition to your boundries. For example, if you sense that the other person is being quiet before attack you again, you could introject a comment about "this is the kind of situation that used to set off a confrontation between us. I have noticed you restraining your criticism and I really appreciate your being considerate of my needs for quiet (acceptance, peace, tolerance, support, etc., etc.) It may not work every time but it sets a more positive sceen than a blow up does. You probably have to prepare to make your comments but it may pay off.

If someone has a chance to try a little discretely delivered praise, tell us how it works.

DrClay

[kimmydawn]

Thank you very much.

Yes, I will try to work on the praise. It's very difficult for me to do with my mother because she always does it for herself (honestly, it's part of her dx'ed personality disorder). I will try hard, though.

Also, I'll try to look for the "sign" that points to a major infraction. There are many smaller ones, but I'm picking my battles here.

I was thinking about the time since I began to fight for myself and it really has been a worthy fight so far. I'm going to start another thread about the "payoff" for identifying, establishing, then maintaining boundaries and the payoff's that I've experienced in just this short time, as well as how hard it was to begin...

KD

[(JD)]

I am a part of Seligman's Postive Psychology research. What I found so far from my part is that giving praise to another helps me.

It is not a conscious feeling better because I know I praised/gave support to another, it was that I realized, "Hey, my depression lightened even ever so slightly since the other day."

My project is to, as often as I am able, recognize good things that happen. Then, once acknowledging it, go a step further and tell others or show others etc, capitalizing on it. I have done this a bit with members here at PC, when I read a post about an engagement, or job or whatever, I post on that thread and then I also go to kudoes and begin a thread of congrats or whatever.

I am eager to find out if others also participating in this research find the same thing!

[kimmydawn]

You know, I've been thinking more about this as well. let me explain why...

Not only do I think my mother, brother, or anyone really would respond to this well for one, but I think about something else. How would praising and complementing another help ME in that relationship...help me to turn my focus as well into recognizing the positive, put some focus there, appreciate what can be.

Bottom line, it could help me more than them in that again, I'm not changing them so much as I'm changing me...what I really only have control over anyhow. Yep, this is an eye-opener for me. I want to see the few precious things I can see in my birth family. What a gift to myself.

KD

[Wants2Fly]

Hi All --

Thank you, Skye and KD, for bringing up how that praise is a gift to ourselves, as well, and helps ME both recognize something positive in my life -- and experience that moment of positivity.

The best thing for me is that my mother responded so quickly to the praise approach. She is dying of emphysema, will not stop smoking, and I am going to miss her. For most of my life, I could not have said that. I either would have been relieved or so distant in a protective shell.

Perhaps she, too, realized that we don't have much time left. I held out tiny straws to signal what I wanted from her -- her nurturing words instead of criticism of all the things that I could do better, right, etc. I could not do more, really, than offer straws, because I am not exactly masterful at human relationships myself. Grin. But she took them, and I have to give her a lot of credit for being able to change and adapt in her 80s. We will never be The Gilmore Girls, but things are much better.

I hope I have hijacked your thread, KD, going on about mom. Best wishes for finding some peace with your boundaries and your family.

[Loralei]

I had/have similar issues with my family. I avoided the problem for years, just living far away from my parents. Then, as I grew and matured and thought I had it together enough to be strong and establish boundaries, I decided that my aging mother could use some help and invited her to be my neighbor in my apt complex. Well, she was old and feeble, had cancer, COPD....so next thing I know, she's coming into my apt with the ëmergency"key I gave her, just on her whim to look in my fridge, criticize my housekeeping(you just posted a reply to my needing help with my house cleaning, so this is a sore spot with me anyway), etc. Well old mom started crying when I expressed my feelings about boundaries and respect, etc. I told her that she was not going to turn this into her being a victim. I was the one who had been violated, and me requesting boundaries is a normal thing.

So, what I'm saying is that I think we will always be particularly vulnerable to family members, and if they are not interested or maybe don't even comprehend boundaries (I truly think my mother does not) that it's just up to us to protect ourselves and our sanity. I ended up having to move away from dear old mom, so I am not so good with the maintaining boundaries with her even now. I guess you have to do whatever you need to do to stay balanced. Personally, I think I will always be fragile and have to avoid those situations for my sanity.
I hope you will find a way to deal with the situation since there are innocent people not involved with "the game". I just want you to know that it sounds like you are doing all the right things, but some people will never change.

[kimmydawn]

THanks for your response and I think you're so right. Some things don't ever change and will be ongoing battles if we choose to have our families in our lives.

I've chosen mother and younger brother. They've "learned" some boundaries, can't others.

It's a struggle...

KD

[Wants2Fly]

It sounds exhausting, KD. But you are fighting the Good Fight, taking care of yourself when others will not and do not. And that is truly admirable.

It is even more admirable considering all you have had on your plate in recent times.

((((((((((((((((((((((((KimmyDawn)))))))))))))))))))))

[Juliana]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Wants2Fly said:
Hi All --

Thank you, Skye and KD, for bringing up how that praise is a gift to ourselves, as well, and helps ME both recognize something positive in my life -- and experience that moment of positivity.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I would like to say thanks for this discussion of praise too. When I focus on the positive things about those around me, it makes me feel better. I'm a natural worrier, so I often imagine how I would feel if the last conversation I had with a loved one is one in which I argued with them or criticized. So, I make a point of telling them I love them and praising them.

My sister and I have very different perceptions of our parents. For her own reasons, my sister is usually only able to focus on the negative. She focuses a lot of her time and energy on pointing out their shortcomings, imperfections, and what she sees as their failure as parents. She blames them for everything that is wrong in her life and she is terribly unhappy. They praise her, but she won't praise them in return... and I believe that hurts her as much as (if not more than) it hurts them.

When I was quite young, I started to worry about losing my parents and how devastated I would be. I thought a lot about the things I would miss most about them. I know they weren't perfect parents, because no one is perfect. But I know they loved us unconditionally and I adore them and am so thankful to them for giving me a wonderful childhood -- full of love, feelings of safety and support.

I focus on their positive qualities and all the wonderful things they have done -- not their mistakes. I tell them often how much I love them, why I admire them and appreciate them, and thank them for helping to make me who I am. It makes me feel good and positive -- and it makes them feel good too.

If you were to talk to my sister and I, you would assume that we had different parents because, according to her, they were horrible parents. Maybe they just weren't the kind of parents SHE needed. Maybe I was just lucky and got the kind of parents I needed -- and still need. I don't know. It hurts me to see her so unhappy, though, and it hurts me to see the pain my parents feel when they are faced with her recriminations and blame. I believe my sister would be happier if she could focus -- even just once in a while -- on the love our parents have always had for her and all their positive qualities. She is entitled to her feelings, of course. I can't change the way she thinks, but I love her and want her to be happier... and I feel that her obsession with her "horrible" childhood is an impediment to her happiness. I wish she would give praise a try -- if only for her own benefit.

[EJ711]

KD,

I think you made yourself very clear.

Who does have enough energy for "24/7 hypervigilance" as you said?

May I ask do you have an adoptive family also?

I battle boundary maintenance too, but with my husband, b/c of his childhood issues.

Somewhere in the back of my mind I always thought life was supposed to get easier at some point, but evidently neither of us have reached that point -- LOL.

Hugs,

EJ