Chapter 7: Anger and Aggression

Fayerody:

Austin is not easy to get around town. But "the Mansion" is a nice place for a wedding and pictures.

Taking a 20-member family to a wedding 2-days away is a long expensive trip just to see a beautiful bride and the Grooms' men in kilts. My first Grandson did it up right.

drclay

_Sky:

I appreciate your keeping us focused on Anger, a very important topic for many people.

You asked a very interesting question on this post: "Understanding who's "job" it is to correct them or help them get back on track, now that's the key."

My reaction was: Well, who's job is it? The person troubled with anger? The parents and family of the angry person? The friends who are often abused by an angry person? Teachers and schools? The police? The Church? The victims of the angry person's actions? Counselors and therapists?

Maybe "all of the above."

Then there is the problem of deciding how to best approach the angry person in a way to reduce their mean, aggressive, harmful actions. The best approach surely depends on the relationship has with the angry person...one response will not fit all situations.

Maybe the best we can do is share with each other approaches we have had some success with. Some have already reported what worked for them when approaching others...and stopping their own anger. Let's get more ideas that have worked.

drclay

_Sky brought up the Abuse Excuse. Very interesting point. If you read my discussion of Determinism in Chapter 14, it will sound as if I would excuse almost any behavior because everything we do is "lawful." The problem is that we don't know all the laws that determine our angry, hurtful behaviors...and we don't know the degree that conscious decision making can overcome the emotional-based impulses based on anger and selfishness.

Will power is not used often in psychology but even the law allows an excuse for an "uncontrollable impulse" but it isn't spelled out by science when an impulse is so powerful and justified that it can excuse our angry impulses. I don't have much to add to this discussion if it goes in this direction. Anyone have a reaction to the use of abuse as an excuse for one's bad behavior?

Juliaspavlov:

I wonder if you didn't often hope that your son would go or be taken to a hospital in the hope that they could help him get better? That would be understandable...but it brings you into conflict with his interests because he if focused on escaping institutions rather than going to an institution for help and for his own good.

You are in a hard place. If you explain your position to your son, it may help. Also, try hard to understand his viewpoints too.

It is hard to have a conflict like this with a son (or daughter).

drclay

Hi Sky,
I teach anger management and management of aggressive behavior at the hospital where I work and to local law enforcement. Sometimes it is up to the "rest" of us to diffuse and redirect an angry person for their own and others' safety. However, it is the individual's responsibility for their own angry physical/verbal behavior. With our laws, society is fairly specific about what it will tolerate and what it won't.

I know am jumping in the middle of this conversation. Pls. forgive me if I'm totally out of context!
Take care,
Okie

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
drclay said:
I wonder if you didn't often hope that your son would go or be taken to a hospital in the hope that they could help him get better?
drclay

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> How true.I've always wanted help for him.I read something on ODD the other day. Oppositional defiance disorder I think its called. My son hates authority. He has felt like they have used him as a scapegoat at times.Especially at school.He left school in year 9 (15 years age). He won't even buy a ticket for a train ride and has multiple fines for it. He won't wear a helmet on a bike etc all because he hates the authority represented in it....I'm not sure what I'm trying to say......can your brain be hardwired to react to all authority with anger and rebellion??? or is it something he will be able to see and work on one day.(hes 20 yrs age now).

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Juliaspavlov said:
Could only read tiny bits of this. I wanted to know how to talk to my son who gets angry at me. He says I put him in psych hosp. He was responsible for himself going in really.He physically attacked me when police were at the door asking about a crime in the neighbourhood. They took him in P.hosp. The 2nd time he went in by himself after living on a beach for 3 weeks. 3rd time his brother took him in when he was tremors. 4th time police took him in when he escaped ward. 5th time he took himself in after having bad thoughts. He still holds me responsible. In his anger he says; "you don't know me mum. You don't listen to me mum. and similar...if i question him trying to know and listen to him he gets angry....one problem I have is that my eldest brother used to get angry all the time....even to the point of pressing a machete into my throat..and anger really scares me...and makes me sad. My brother is now dead after a very sad life....I could see where his anger came from...but with my son I haven't got a clue...unless its his dad...but he would deny that...his anger always seems aimed at me...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

you fail to understand me mother.... i dont get angry at you... i get angry at the things you do. anger is anger itelf and nothing is to blame for anger apart from something triggering anger... usually brainwashing is the reason people get angry and brainwashing is the reason blame themselves or something else for the anger... if only you really knew me mother you would forgive me like jesus forgives.... i forgive you for putting me in a psych ward pointlessly but there were too many bad things that caused me to go into places like that to get brainwashed out of mindstates... mindstates that are yours and if only you knew that i would be 20000000% better off without taking pills that make me think unlike myself.... you not really going to understand my message either, because of brainwashings, but the whole world is brainwashed so its alittle difficult to get anyones message across and truely be understood. im sure johhnny would never put a knife to your throat and literally be your fault he was angry with life.... thats all ive ever been angry about, not you, although you spark things on me in ignroance. maybe thats what you did to johnnuy

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usually brainwashing is the reason people get angry and brainwashing is the reason blame themselves or something else for the anger...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Welcome mr_imnot_crazy. I find the above interesting and quite self-revealing. You see, I can't agree, not for me. But I can see where it is true for you. Can you share more about why you feel this brainwashing is going on?

What if the pills really do make you more of what you are like, and that this you're feeling now, this anger is not who you really are? How do the pills make you feel?

I'm also curious about your ideas of how Jesus forgave. I am a Christian, as you may know if you've been reading in the forums.

Dr Clay will probably post for you this week, but in the meantime, would you share more with us here? ((hug))

Its beautiful to hear your communication lovable puppy. No J....y was upset because I saw his friends in a homosexual act...he didn't realize how much in shock I was....I was too young to see that... I think I'll give you a trophy for writing about your anger.. I'd like to see more about what you think.I always question but dont feel getting answers. Maybe thats not the way to get to know you. All I know about you my lovable puppy is that you were the happiest person in the universe and something went wrong to change that..?????

Oki, np, the forum's open

I think my question was a rhetorical one... this WHO ...

Hi Sky,
I've just read the last few posts and I'm totally not getting this conversation, so I'll just keep reading and see if I catch up.
Take care,
Okie

I'll pm you

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_Sky said:
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
usually brainwashing is the reason people get angry and brainwashing is the reason blame themselves or something else for the anger...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Welcome mr_imnot_crazy. I find the above interesting and quite self-revealing. You see, I can't agree, not for me. But I can see where it is true for you. Can you share more about why you feel this brainwashing is going on?

What if the pills really do make you more of what you are like, and that this you're feeling now, this anger is not who you really are? How do the pills make you feel?

I'm also curious about your ideas of how Jesus forgave. I am a Christian, as you may know if you've been reading in the forums.

Dr Clay will probably post for you this week, but in the meantime, would you share more with us here? ((hug))

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

ok i see what your saying, but what im saying that deep inside our minds are perfect. nothing is wrong with anyone. but because of evil that has existed on this planet for 144,000 years (jesus was trying to fix this) people have been brainwashing each other into being evil, subconcious and concious altho people will blame other things for brainwashings. feelings are brainwashings. people should feel completely happy and calm minded if it wernt for brainwashing each other with words and actions. so my point was that in tight situations its often just self-depression which is causing the anger and people will get angry at others for their own personal reasons not because someone sparked them off or something. jesus was more like is inner being so things didnt affect him as much he was more in control of his mind. ergo he was more perfect than a human. my example of him was that he was demonstrating by his example a better mindstate that anyone can acheive making themselves perfect. also doctor pills will NEVER EVER really help you they only destroy nessicary parts of your brain and make you dosile, and this i know from experience. and another thing about perfection, your mind is your best doctor. if you work hard like your life to be perfect and do everything you can to acheive perfection, and make that the goal of your life, youll acheive it.

and mum, you need to get back to reality, and see me for who i am and read into the words that i say to find the inner me in everything i say, thats how you can communicate. i am more happier now and since being a baby i have constantly grown my happyness so you can see how much more happy 19 years makes a differerence. also, on the outside appearance which fools you when you look at people mainly, so you blame other things for peoples actions (more going on brainwashing as above) but on the outside appearance of me, i was the happiest as a baby and because of how i was treated and the experiences ive gone through, ive slowly decreased in happyness and after 19 years its a drag on my life causing frustration and anger im sure everybody goes through the same thing of their spirit dieing progressively throughout their lives and many things dragging them down into old age. but people will say "thats life, deal with it" anyways mum im much happier now than i was as a child for the new knowlegde i constantly gain and thats a perscpective i have, although i cronicly drink to get rid of depressed feelings. im depressed about the same thing johhny was depressed about life. thats all.

btw, i just meant i dont think johhny really meant to hurt of scare you and it was an accident. a fav quote: dont blame others for your own feelings and actions for your the only one responsible for your body and mind. and you can take control of it.

<font color="#000088">I've been learning the real emotions that I'm supposed to feel in my therapy sessions,instead of just anger. Like sadness, fear, grief(loss), frustration, dissappointment, worry, sorrow, and then ofcourse there's the unconditional love that my Dad taught me. My Therapist explained that my mind just skips from those other emotions,and just goes straight to anger,since that's all I had known to survive mentally,and physically. But that I've always been able to show love. So I'm still learning,and working at it,and doing my best to be less aggresive each day!
The death of my Father was a set back,because it did bring up a lot of anger,but that was because of the way my family was handling things about his death. Like his Life Insurance,and his religious burial,he wasn't an active Mormon,yet they still gave him a Mormon funeral,and buried him in his Mormon Temple clothes,which was against his wishes.He no longer believed in the Mormon Church,and wanted out.So when they did that to him,it brought up much anger for me,that they put that ridiculous skirt on him,when he would have wanted to be dressed in his best suit! It made him look like a female,I just couldn't even look for very long,but to tell my goodbye's!
My family is very greedy with money,and they were talking about his insurance,even before his funeral,and that angered me as well,because my Dad was a very generous Man as well as loving! </font>

(((hugs)))

I think also it happens that ppl resort to anger instead of the emotion they're really experiencing is because in today's society it's acceptable to show anger. Too acceptable maybe?

TC

Sky and Friends,

I think anger has become too acceptable in our society.

I also think my husband uses anger to mask his fear, abandonment issues and feelings of worthlessness.

EJ

continuing on in the book.. page 19..

<font color="blue">Are some people just “evil”? If not, how do they learn to be so awful? Occasionally you hear of a horrendous crime—an 80-year-old woman is brutally assaulted, being raped, stabbed many times, and perhaps the head or body parts cut off and buried. No one can understand why a total stranger would do this. In one’s mind one paints a picture of intense, uncontrolled rage. The act is so extremely abhorrent that one can’t imagine oneself doing such a violent, revolting and senseless thing. Most people might say “the person who did that is an evil person.” That is about as far as one’s explanation can go.

For most people that may be all the explanation of behavior they need. In some peculiar way “evil” explains what has happened. But the term isn’t an adequate explanation. “Evil” says the acts are bad but it doesn’t clarify the reasons or the means by which “evil” forces caused this atrocity. “Evil” is one of the oldest explanations of terribly bad behavior. It is a religious concept, coming from the ancient notion of opposing good and evil forces—God and the Devil--fighting for control over people’s lives and worldly events. At other times in less serious and bizarre circumstances it is said almost as a joke, “The Devil made me do it.” That may be a subtle request that the listener not undertake a deeper analysis of the speaker’s motives. “The Devil did it” may also be said more seriously to help explain some shamefully inconsiderate, immoral, or selfish behavior or to escape some responsibility for what one has done.

It is like saying “it was not entirely my fault” or “I don’t know why I did it.” There are many abominable acts committed for unfathomable reasons. I don’t refer just to mass murder of unknown people (the World Trade Center Towers, the Washington, D.C snipers) but also to leaders who plan genocide (Hitler, Malosovich, and Sudan or Uganda leaders) or start or prolong unnecessary wars, businesses that deceive or cheat lots of people, and so on, as well as spouse and child abusers, rapists, sexual abusers, petty criminals or ordinary cons, and people who are cruel to animals. One can see why the most horrible and least understood acts of these people might be called “evil” because the term reflects our fear of and disdain for immoral acts.

But when “evil” replaces explanatory scientific terms and methods, it blocks our getting knowledge about the true causes of terrible violent and weird behaviors. Let’s think about that a little bit.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_Sky said:
(((hugs)))

I think also it happens that ppl resort to anger instead of the emotion they're really experiencing is because in today's society it's acceptable to show anger. Too acceptable maybe?

TC

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

thats true because all that society and tv shows is mainly spite and attacking responses from one being to the other... like for example most people i know would just tease each other constantly and attack each others comments with a fight or somesortof evil quality behind it.. comedy is based in insulting others and making parodys of other things. people can confuse these things for anger aswell

on the last comment:
your so true and its a brainwashing that people think about it as evil and you untied that abit.
you should read www.thiaoouba.com and find the book freedom of choice, it has the best comments to explain why people CHOOSE to do the things they do.
and your the only person to blame for your own actions and feelings, lots of people dont understand that and blame the other person for making them angry.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
burnkrn said:
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_Sky said:
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
usually brainwashing is the reason people get angry and brainwashing is the reason blame themselves or something else for the anger...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Welcome mr_imnot_crazy. I find the above interesting and quite self-revealing. You see, I can't agree, not for me. But I can see where it is true for you. Can you share more about why you feel this brainwashing is going on?

What if the pills really do make you more of what you are like, and that this you're feeling now, this anger is not who you really are? How do the pills make you feel?

I'm also curious about your ideas of how Jesus forgave. I am a Christian, as you may know if you've been reading in the forums.

Dr Clay will probably post for you this week, but in the meantime, would you share more with us here? ((hug))

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

ok i see what your saying, but what im saying that deep inside our minds are perfect. nothing is wrong with anyone. but because of evil that has existed on this planet for 144,000 years (jesus was trying to fix this) people have been brainwashing each other into being evil, subconcious and concious altho people will blame other things for brainwashings. feelings are brainwashings. people should feel completely happy and calm minded if it wernt for brainwashing each other with words and actions. so my point was that in tight situations its often just self-depression which is causing the anger and people will get angry at others for their own personal reasons not because someone sparked them off or something. jesus was more like is inner being so things didnt affect him as much he was more in control of his mind. ergo he was more perfect than a human. my example of him was that he was demonstrating by his example a better mindstate that anyone can acheive making themselves perfect. also doctor pills will NEVER EVER really help you they only destroy nessicary parts of your brain and make you dosile, and this i know from experience. and another thing about perfection, your mind is your best doctor. if you work hard like your life to be perfect and do everything you can to acheive perfection, and make that the goal of your life, youll acheive it.

and mum, you need to get back to reality, and see me for who i am and read into the words that i say to find the inner me in everything i say, thats how you can communicate. i am more happier now and since being a baby i have constantly grown my happyness so you can see how much more happy 19 years makes a differerence. also, on the outside appearance which fools you when you look at people mainly, so you blame other things for peoples actions (more going on brainwashing as above) but on the outside appearance of me, i was the happiest as a baby and because of how i was treated and the experiences ive gone through, ive slowly decreased in happyness and after 19 years its a drag on my life causing frustration and anger im sure everybody goes through the same thing of their spirit dieing progressively throughout their lives and many things dragging them down into old age. but people will say "thats life, deal with it" anyways mum im much happier now than i was as a child for the new knowlegde i constantly gain and thats a perscpective i have, although i cronicly drink to get rid of depressed feelings. im depressed about the same thing johhny was depressed about life. thats all.

btw, i just meant i dont think johhny really meant to hurt of scare you and it was an accident. a fav quote: dont blame others for your own feelings and actions for your the only one responsible for your body and mind. and you can take control of it.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

this was my comment

Time to move on... http://www.psychologicalselfhelp.org/Chapter7/

Dr Clay writes:

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
<font color="blue">I want to give you another example of how science can understand awful (“evil”) acts and thereby avoid the mystical anti-scientific notions embedded in explanations that use “evil.”

Military leaders, as well as psychologists and psychiatrists, observed during the Vietnam War that some soldiers who had been in combat—sometimes captured and tortured—and had seen the brutality involved in war were more likely to become brutal and violent themselves.

Some US soldiers killed old men, women and children without good cause. It may amaze you—it did me—that an estimated 20% of American officers who died in Vietnam were killed by their own men.

A psychiatrist, Jonathan Shay (1995), studied such acts and wrote a book, “Achilles in Vietnam: Combat trauma and the undoing of character.” His title states his thesis, namely, going through the horrors of war, results in the soldier’s own conscience and morals (or impulse control) deteriorating and becoming radically changed.

This is especially likely if the soldier has personally been grossly mistreated or if the soldier has been misinformed or mislead about “what is right” by his own officers or government, and if the soldier has brutalized others.

For some soldiers it becomes much easier to inflict pain, disregard suffering, and to kill—the kinds of things that we might call “evil.” Another consequence to the soldier fighting a war may be long-term suffering of Traumatic Stress Disorder (discussed in chapter 5).

We will also see in this chapter that many “evil” people have grown up without experiencing dependable love, care, and empathy.

Many violent people, grossly mistreated when young, have learned early to enjoy hurting others, e.g. bullying others and hurting animals.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

http://www.psychologicalselfhelp.org.../chap7_22.html

and.... </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
<font color="blue">Finally, there are many probably false beliefs about the forces of “evil” that should be investigated. Examples:
<ul type="square">
[*](1) That “evil” develops very early in childhood and becomes an unstoppable part of a person’s basic primitive personality.
[*](2) That “evil” urges can’t be psychologically explained and “evil” can’t be blamed on life events, like child abuse, emotional trauma, ethnic or religious hatred, psychological disorders, TV, friends, etc.
[*](3) “Evil” is an addiction, like in a serial killer, and is an insatiable thirst for a special “high” that comes with over-powering, injuring, and killing people or animals.
[*](4) That “evil” people experience no regrets or guilt about what they have done and have no wish to change. These assumed characteristics of “evil” can be can be studied and confirmed or refuted.

If the notion of evil is not researched, it may, like other social taboos, interfere with our psychological thinking about anger and violence for 100s of years. My belief is that “evil” is a left-over idea from centuries old religion and mysticism that needs to be replaced with research based concepts.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">[/list]

Dr Clay also writes:

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
<font color="yellow">Later in this chapter we discuss specific abusive situations that make us very uncomfortable and, partly for that reason, these acts are not researched nearly as well as they should be. Examples: very violent or threatening people, rapists, incest perpetrators, sexual and emotional abusers of children, molesters, people who inflict pain and torture children, etc. Mental illness may be a much more powerful factor in these behaviors than we believe at this time, consider, e.g. Andrea Yates, the post-partum depressed mother who killed all 5 of her children, and Susan Smith, who drowned her children by sinking her car in a lake. The “evil” notion may still play a role in our thinking about these kinds of behavior too, even in our courts.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

CONTROLLING ANGER <ul type="square">[*]

Society tries to control meanness with harsh punishment Certain emotions, however, get more and different attention than others. For instance, anxiety and depression get far more treatment, both talking therapy and drug treatment, than anger and aggression.[*]

Society relies heavily on punishment to reduce aggression and defiance of the law—a method not used with anxiety or sadness. In the case of criminals, almost the only method for changing this emotion is physical restraint—“lock them up and throw away the key”.[*]

Overall the results of using punishment to stop misbehavior have not been promising. And we do not seem highly motivated to investigate various other methods of reducing violence, hatred, and breaking the law.[*]

For people who are annoying at work or school, there are a few anger management programs (discussed later) but not nearly the variety of specialized individual treatment methods and clinics as available for sad or stressed people. It may be that angry people are not as eager to change themselves as tense or disappointed people are.[*]

It is probably also true that the victims of someone else’s anger are not very eager to help the offender change; they mostly want to stay away from them. These attitudes and conditions are part of the social circumstances that make it harder to reduce anger. [/list]

I don't feel anger and aggression are all that related. Anger is a legitimate feeling that gets a bad rap because most people don't know how to express it in such a way to make it helpful to themselves or others (and others don't know how to "take" someone elses angry words).

I think most aggressive people aren't in control, are either acting out or deliberately pursuing a selfish path. I don't think aggressive people "think things through". Wanting something and doing a snatch and grab of it without looking first at how such action would impact others/one's environment is a form of acting out to me. Children act that way; grab toys because they want them and I think aggressive people are similar in their psychology, have not learned or are unable to think of others.

Of course, no one is all "one" way; aggressive people often act aggressively but not always or with all people, etc. just like angry people can occasionally not feel angry. And both anger and aggression are on a continuum like other feelings/expression of feelings. Being "annoyed" is a mild form of anger and hurrying to get into a line "first" (I do it when I'm at a party that has a buffet eating arrangement :-) can be a mile form of aggression. One of my favorite photographs is an Easter picture of my niece and nephew, grown man and woman, battling one another to get the "golden" plastic Easter egg; my stepmother use to fill the plastic eggs with change and paper money and my teen/grown nieces and nephews would have an "adult" hunt but the golden-colored egg was known to have a $20 bill in it :-) So we have these two 20-something siblings "dressed up" in Easter church/dress clothing and trying to wrestle the other away from the egg. Just a little aggression :-) without there being any anger.

Perna:

You can define these terms however you want to when you are talking/writing about them. As long as others know your definitions, we can communicate just fine. Usually I link being aggressive with having at least a little anger. But you can define your words however you want to. (:-)

That was a cute mental picture of your relatives fighting over the golden egg with $20 in it. I agree it could be that they were having a great time with their favorite cousin...or they could be resentful over many things in the past and anger isn't far beneath the surface.

Yes, I agree, having models for coping with handling distress or anger is a helpful asset. We should all be so lucky...or lucky enough to have practical classes and cogent teachers through out our first 20 years of life.

Good to hear from you again.

drclay