Angry

I'm just so angry. I'm tired of me and other people who are "different" being ostracized and kicked out of groups for our "protection". Or just being deliberately excluded for no particular reason or for a very superficial reason.

I hate that I have to explain that I have food sensitivities in order for some people to not just think I'm high maintenance. Everything social is around food so the first thing people find out about me is that I'm apparently "high maintenance". And food is a good way to exclude me...like a holiday cookie exchange that happened annually in a group I used to be in. The last time I went to a cookie exchange, I realized that the cookies I brought were the only ones I could eat without risking getting sick.

I hate feeling like I have to keep to myself when smells, sounds, and other things are physically painful or make me sick because I feel so guilty that other people would have to be inconvenienced in order for me to be comfortable. I've felt too guilty to say anything after being called "high maintenance" for the food issue. So I just suffer through it now.

And even therapists dismiss and misunderstand me. I'm not sure I'd feel confident enough to stand up to one right now to even communicate my needs. I'd only feel willing to go to a sex therapist and the closest ones are an hour away. :-/ I don't know what's actually "wrong" with me so it's not like I can find a specialist in another area.

So I can't relate to people, and therefore I'm ostracized. I'm different so I'm excluded. I can't give an organization all my time and energy because I decided to get a graduate degree and got into a relationship (and it took extra time and energy to figure out how to do well in a relationship) and frankly the last two things are my priorities, so then I don't feel as welcome in organizations. In the last three years or so, every time I've tried to make a friend and be more open to people, I'm just invalidated and used. People just pretend to be nice so I'll do their homework because I'm too naive to figure it out until it's too late. I don't mind helping people with homework if there's a mutual give and take and I'm just helping them, not DOING IT FOR THEM.

I've just resigned to trust no one unless they make an effort to show they're trustworthy. And most people aren't going to go to that much effort. I've been on here for years trying to figure out how people and friendships work and have realized that there are all these unwritten rules that I don't know and couldn't possibly know unless the other person tells me. And since they won't (as they assume people who can't read their minds and magically know the rules are terrible friends and everyone on here agrees with them!)

These are just some of the many reasons I'm angry...and there doesn't seem to be much help for people like me because it seems next to impossible to get anyone to even understand.

I guess what I'd like out of this thread is understanding and if there's anything I can do about it when I don't trust therapists. How would I get an accurate evaluation when I can't go to a psychiatrist (don't want to be forced or coerced onto meds until they're necessary for the safety of myself and others) because clearly my depression and anxiety are just reactions to a deeper issue. They both started when I was a small child. Treating depression and anxiety by themselves with meds never really helped me. And since I appear so high functioning in school which is what I've done pretty much my whole life (I'm intelligent and really good at adapting so those tend to cover up deficiencies) that it seems like I have no issues. Or that I "just have social anxiety" (as said dismissively by someone that I don't think was all that qualified after all evaluating me). Can I even go to a specialist in ASD/ADD to be evaluated for both, a sensory processing disorder, or something completely different or would they even waste their time since I don't officially have any of those disorders at this point? Would they even consider the new research done on females with high functioning autism that shows that it appears differently than it does with males because of different socialization as children?

But none of that would even matter if I would just be treated well and the same as everyone else. I'd love to have professors to treat me the same as other grad students and not pick on me or exclude me. That would be GREAT. Or here's a novel idea, just tell me what I did to deserve the treatment I got. Not all of us know...I can only guess! My tone was wrong maybe? I could only guess that because I actually finally got feedback from someone! And don't be passive aggressive...I've only recently begun to recognize it when it happens! And that's only because I'm expecting certain people to be jerks 100% of the time!

Welcome aboard!! It does sound like high functioning autism. I'm in the same boat. I don't seem to understand internally the social rules and cues, and thus I don't usually comply to them, unintentionally. Going to a therapist for me would be the last thing next to be dead. Society is merciless and blind for differences. There is one of two ways: either you conform to the norm even if you are not "normal", or be ostracized and ignored. Both are difficult options. I's sorry if that wasn't helpful, but I'm struggling in fitting in as well, and cannot accept both options. I feel I'm forced to be someone I'm not or do something that I don't want to do just to please others and feel I'm "acceptable" to them. You have the right to be angry. Just try to channel it outside you. I forwarded this anger inwardly, and it becomes/strengthens my depression.

Why did you mention ADD? I didn't read anything that implies you might have it. Are you organized? Can you focus when working on something?

I'm apparently a real smart ***. I've been kicked out of a professor's office and smacked for the things I've said (although that was in 8th grade so maybe it doesn't count so much XD).

Oddly, I'm in one of the fields that often draws people on the spectrum (music). That's not the cliched one everyone knows about, but it's one of the big ones. I shouldn't be considered THAT abnormal. Neither should my partner (who is on the spectrum).

On that topic, before I got to know my partner, I didn't think I was capable of bonding with another human being. He seems more my "species" than other people, that's why I started looking into it in the first place. And also at work, being encouraged to work with someone on the spectrum (I work with special needs adults and teens while I'm in grad school) because we had a lot of common/would be a good fit (I don't remember the exact words used). Most of them are also paras in school so they may be able to see something and be implying something. I don't know. But my thoughts were immediately shot down and not given a consideration at first by my partner and his mom (who is an educator and one of the early researchers of autism). But after I told my partner the research on high functioning females and how it appears different because of socialization and that it could explain my gender issues, he's really not sure (but he's not qualified to be sure, so that's fair.

The mention of ADD was due mostly to me not being able to focus and pay attention, especially when I want to. There are huge blanks in my memories of concerts/TV shows/whatever. I just start thinking about something else and my mind drifts away. It happens in conversations too and I have to deliberately remind myself to focus or I have to ask them to repeat things because I zoned out. This didn't affect me in school because I just filled in the holes with my own study or logical conclusion. It only became a problem in college when I had to dictation in my music degree. Which is essentially the same as listening to long, complex, verbal instructions and having to dictate them down after only getting to hear them a few times. I can't do verbal instructions at all, unless it's one step at a time and I usually have to repeat it constantly to myself to not forget. Apparently the way I memorize information is different...most people memorize "accidentally" by just repeating something over and over. I usually have to be deliberately trying to memorize something and use a mix of repetition and memorizing patterns. Most musicians just seem to memorize just by playing a piece of music several times without meaning to. It also took a long time to type out the first post and I know I had to leave and come back at least once.

I'm only organized because I try really hard. I sometimes have to have checklists or I will forget obvious things. I still forget obvious things. I probably need to use checklists more XD My place looks messy even when I try to organize and clean it. I mean, it's fairly clean, but it's cluttered no matter how hard I try. I mean, I know it could be so much worse, but it's still annoying.

I don't know...I just often feel like way too much of my brain is lit up at any given time and it's hard to concentrate when you have vibrant "movies" and orchestras playing in your head. And I don't mean like a hallucination. Like your brain is just thinking and creating in hyperdrive often and it's very difficult to stay present and in the real world when your brain is that lit up. I've had times that I've not even been able to communicate. That usually happens after movies when I see them in the theaters and I think it has to with the overwhelming of the senses maybe.

But who knows what any of it indicates or means. I've never officially studied psychology. I did have a psychiatrist say I had ADD, but he came to that conclusion too soon for me and my parents to take it seriously at the time, but maybe he was on to something?

Back to the original topic though, this anger I feel isn't really an "active" anger. Nothing needs to be released; I don't need to scream in a pillow or break something. That won't make me feel better unless it's just temporary. It's more of a frustration of not being heard or understood. Of not getting my needs met. It's better now that I've been able to bond with someone and be understood but the world just kicks us around and neither of us understand. And it makes me equally as angry if something happens to him, which is what inspired me to make the post in the first place.

While I was reading your post, I put in my mind that I want to comment that your thoughts are organized and you can write long posts, but later you said you tried very hard and it took you a long time. I usually don't read long posts, and I don't write them. I lose track. It takes me a long time to read and write them (it's been more than 45 minutes writing this. I write this here because I keep modifying after I write the post). Many disorders have similar symptoms, but I think what you described indicates ADHD.

I understand what you are saying about anger and frustration. Luckily for me I work in academic research, and I don't have to deal with people, but still feel frustrated when I try to, and of course my chances are very limited because of that. Socializing in general, but in conferences in specific to make connections, is a nightmare for me. I have a mixed of (social) anxiety, blank and distracted mind (ADHD), and lack of appropriate reactions to social cues (probably ASD).

Socializing is an important element in life, and people who don't know how to socialize fall short relative to more sociable people, even if they are extraordinary intelligent. I personally focus on topics and discussion more that on people. I like everything to be formal with people, that's why I was told several times I look serious and people tend to avoid me. But it doesn't work that way. You need to build a connection with people because people tend to help those who connect with them more than others, even in formal settings. For example, a secretary in a department will help a student who is sociable more than a student who isn't, although both are students. Of course she/he will help them both, but not the same help. People go the extra mile with those they feel comfortable with. Unfortunately, I cannot do that. The small talks isn't my thing, and I definitely don't make people feel comfortable because I'm socially awkward. Do you feel the same challenge, or your situation is different? I mean, why do you think people treat you the way they do?

To be fair, it's not always that difficult or take that long to write something. Also, academic writing has always been easier for me to concentrate on than personal writing (like forum posts/emails etc.). I surprisingly do well on timed essay exams. The only thing I really struggled with on my comprehensive exams was a question I was NOT prepared for at all. But I've always been naturally good at writing and organizing written thought.

It's not like I ever went back and read what I had written to make sure everything made sense. I guess it usually seems organized accidentally? Maybe it's already written in my head and I'm just desperately trying to catch up with my hands? I rarely have to do any major editing on an academic paper either. Don't know what that means. Maybe I've just been reading about ADD and ASD too much and am just trying to make it fit because it's close? It would be nice to know I fit somewhere I guess...

The anger I feel with the stress of classes starting/job search for next year/finishing my dissertation has my mind going everywhere I think. It's harder to concentrate.

Also, it is imperative for me to be able to relate to and connect with people. I work well with people but have a hard time connecting and being a friend...I think you know what I mean. I'm a musician and composer...I NEED to collaborate with other people. It's my dream to have a band.

I imagine you need to connect with people, but still I don't see where is the problem with people if you work well with them (I assume your frustration is from people, and exaggerated by stress, as I understand). Do you have difficult time making personal talk but it's easier if it's about something specific and formal, for example? I will give an example, I was a chanter in a Church, and I was asked to train a group of people (I learned alone). I couldn't teach them. Not because I didn't know how to chant and teach, but because they didn't want only to learn how to chant. They wanted to have side talks, to comment on things, to laugh, to be silly ... etc. I cannot do these things others do. I had a specific mission, and I wanted to do it. Period. That's how my mind works. But it seems for others everything is a social activity/event before it's anything else. Thus I failed, and I quit after two lessons. Do you relate to this?

I have a tendency to keep editing. I don't write a paper very well from the first draft because I know I will do some editing. But after 2-3 revisions, I submit the paper, even if the deadline is a month ahead, because otherwise I'll keep editing, and it's exhausting for me mentally. I do this constantly here. It takes me very long to write posts. I think that you are more likely to have ASD than ADHD. You mentioned you partner's mother do research on the topic. Could she know if you have ASD? Also you mentioned social anxiety. How anxious are you around people?

I only say I work well with people because I do my job as a musician well and I'm prepared and professional. The problem is, I don't connect to many people on a personal level and frequently people choose people over me that are less professional and are lacking skill wise. There's various reasons for it, but they're all political (how people relate to other people). It could just be because I'm in an area that's very corrupt, I don't know. As a composer/arranger, there's a whole bunch of social sorcery and marketing skills involved that I'm not sure I understand...I've heard people just go around telling others they know and have some connection to (or can connect with them through conversation) that they write music. And what do you know, these other people make films and they need a composer. I don't know how these people even know about these parties...I assume you'd have to have friends first to get and make the connections you need to make a living.

Not having many connections is going to make it next to impossible to even have my dissertation piece performed...I'm basically going to have to ask/beg strangers to rehearse and play on a piece for free because the school (and it's brand new 8 million endowment) doesn't have money for grants for conductors and composers to pay their musicians. So you have to pay them yourself or beg. Or have a lot of friends/connections.

Since her field is education, maybe, but isn't that more in the realm of psychiatry or neurology? My understanding is she did research 30 years ago and since she works with children, I'm not sure if she could conclusively tell with an adult she never knew as a child? I really don't know.

I've also been slightly more comfortable interacting with people a generation older than me than my peers. Apparently as a child, I wouldn't really play with other children (unless they were older) because I didn't understand how they interacted with each other. So I think I preferred talking to adults because they could talk intelligently instead of running around screaming.

I ended up being placed in kindergarten right after I turned 5 which is really early compared to the average age of children. I was very emotionally immature. I had never gone to preschool so I went through separation anxiety (if that's the correct term) because I'd never had been away from my mom. I didn't know how to interact with other kids, but my parents started me that early because I was already so far ahead of the other kids intellectually that they were afraid I'd be really bored. I ended up being tested for the gifted program a year earlier than what was normal, so about two years age wise difference all in all. I never fit in with the other kids because I was too young AND too intelligent. I didn't even fit in with the gifted kids. Maybe it was because they were all pretty, rich, and popular.

The only place I ever sort of belonged was band...so that's what led me to be a musician. But I still haven't truly found my group...

I think your problem is that you are intelligent and intellectual in a world that values social skills and emotions more than anything else. This is the problem of many intelligent people. As I mentioned before, sociable people are preferred over intelligent people if they lack social skills. This is true everywhere. I had this said to me in my face with an interviewer, though it wasn't about me. They want average people with good social skills more than autonomous intelligent people. I think party because intelligent people are very difficult to be coerced and make them follow orders.

Since dissertations in music require students to play pieces of music, I think it should be the department's role to have all of these logistics arranged, but eventually you need connections for your band. Maybe you can put an announcement about your dissertation. Since all music students need to play a piece of music, most likely you can help them if they help you. It seems acceptable to me because you can offer them something in return without going through the personal connection and keeping things professional. Just a suggestion.

It isn't absolutely required to have the piece played, but I'll likely get crap in my defense if I don't. What would I do for my recital otherwise? Just put together a jazz sextet I guess, but I'd have to write some new stuff last second. The other piece I'm writing now calls for several instruments that have been hard for me to get in the past.

I almost hate to talk to anybody about playing the dissertation piece because then it puts too much pressure on me to figure out the rest of the ensemble. Last time I tried to put a recital together, I couldn't find the people I needed. I'm afraid to ask some of the same people again.

I'm not sure how the department would help me. I've had a conductor recruit for me in the past, but he already graduated. The conductor I would want (because he's a great conductor) wouldn't help me at all. I know other people have gotten other people to recruit for them. I don't quite know how, but that's partly how others have done it.

And I may be intelligent, but I'm not all that autonomous...I don't know if that makes any difference.

I'm just unsure how to initiate conversations I guess. I feel I do okay if the other person initiates and takes the lead. Hopefully I'll become more comfortable with them and feel like I won't get negative reactions or anything. Unfortunately, there was a person that I was immediately comfortable around, but I guess became obsessed about them (for lack of a better word) and now I'm too uncomfortable to be in the same room.

If I just stay quiet and keep to myself, I can't upset anyone, say or do anything inappropriate or offensive, I can't over share or overstep boundaries. And no one is going to call me creepy.

I think when I told an HR hiring manager that I worked my last and only job alone (not withing a team or group), probably she put a red flag besides my name, and didn't call me back!! I prefer to work alone and autonomously, and luckily my supervisors were understanding. I think I'm cooperative if things kept formal, but this is to be tested, to be fair. I think for you it's difficult to be completely autonomous even if you wanted to because you need people to be in the band.

I have been dxd with ADHD since I was young. First dx we got I believe... I have also often wondered if I belonged on the Autism spectrum as well. I had neuropsych testing done last year. Asked him about how they test for Aspbergers in adults. He told me that generally speapking they don't after out of school age. He told me that the treatment for adults is really just learning to compensate with behavior modification therapies mostly CBT or DBT. The only reason they test for ASD in adults would be on the lower functioning end if it were somehow missed in childhood. But I do have to still get all my imaging done...so Idk if the neurologist I have been referred to for imaging diagnostics will have a different opinion to offer. (The testing i have been referred for is to check for any signs of brain injury or trauma because I have sustained quite a few blows to the head various types and also because I carry a rare Comt gene mutation that they believe may put me at higher risk for early onset dementia, alzheimers, or possibly even Parkinsons even tho I don't have family history my genetic mutation is not hereditary.)

Well, it's good to know that at least some doctors won't bother testing for it.

I'm starting to wonder if part of the issue is I'm more depressed than I thought.

I'm just curious: what does a dissertation in music contain (the contribution)? Writing a piece of music from scratch? Also, what a person with an advanced degree in music can do after graduation?

Hi,
If you think it is absolutely necessary for you to put together a sextet, you will have to pluck up caurage to ask the players to play in it. You will find that most players will be happy to play.
You simply tell the player that you would like him/her play in your sextet. you will be surprised that most players will be happy to do so. You should also ask the first one to reccomend others. That way you will get the other five people who like each other and will be glad for the opprtunity.
Your main problem maybe that everybady thinks you're superior to them becas of your desire to be solitary.
Breake the Ice!

Anything another musician/composer can do, but also has a significantly better chance of getting a job in higher ed.

I could get a sextet relatively easily. That's my back up plan if I can't get my dissertation performed. The problem with my dissertation is it includes several instruments that I'm unsure how to ask. And for others, I would want to ask people that I rarely talk to. I'm just not involved with music at the university anymore. The ensembles are decided before the auditions and I'm not included. Even when I go in and win an audition, they just put someone else over me anyway. For the last round of auditions, I found out beforehand who they had already chosen for one ensemble and at the time had a conflict with the other so there wasn't much of a reason to even audition. I get it. No one wants me unless it's last second covering their butts. Everyone knows they can put me on a part at the last second and it'll be done better than most people playing it all semester. And to think, if I weren't a student, I would get paid!

And on that topic, I feel like such a jerk asking anyone to play on a piece of mine without being able to pay them. If I can find a conducting student to team up on a recital like I did during my masters, they would probably do most if not all the recruiting for the ensemble. Good conductors are charismatic and connected enough (involved in ensembles as a member or TA) to be able to convince good players to give away their time and skill for free. My piece calls for players with specific skill sets, so I may have very limited options on some instruments.

After feeling like I've been systematically almost removed from the music scene in this city and not being able to find enough relevant references to a job I really wanted to apply to (5 references-I only have 4), I have to wonder, do I even really deserve to exist? I'm such a loser. I don't feel so angry at this moment but just done. I'll probably feel more anger later.

5 references for a job? Do you have another way to be evaluated, like publications or something? In science, in academia, employers/supervisors look for publications more than anything else, including references. In industry, experience is more important than anything else.

5 references for an academic job...

Oddly, they look more for conferences/performances of pieces more than publications in my field which I have. If they were looking for publications, it would be music published with a regular publisher. There's a push towards self publishing so I don't know if the demand is as high for that. That's how I understand it anyway. But 5 references is hard to get...

Maybe I'm completely wrong...I'm so confused. I didn't want to lose the copyright on my music and risk losing it for future music by trying to get published by a traditional publisher

I included 3 references in my last academic position, and I doubt it made any difference at all. The supervisor who took me was interested more in my publications. Usually, your degree's defense's committee members are good references. How many members do you have, and do you communicate with them? I used one of of my committee members (beside my supervisor) as a reference after I defended my thesis because I wasn't communicating with them frequently before, which what was supposed to happen. You can also use references from your other degrees, I suppose.

I had 5 members, but then one had to be taken off as she went on sick leave. With the other 4: my advisor of course will write references, but one is from a completely different department and wouldn't be able to, one flatly said no, and the other I do not like and I do not trust. I don't think he likes me, but I really can't tell for sure. He might agree to it and then write a negative reference for all I know. But I'm not taking that chance. I would have removed him if the other person wasn't still on sick leave. I had been using other people from the department but outside of my subdepartment, but there's only so many that I've really worked with and I feel comfortable asking. Just taking a class from them a year or two ago (or longer) doesn't seem like enough. I usually use a reference from another university but apparently he's applying to most of the same jobs I am so he can't write one either.

Professors usually don't write recommendation letters to their courses' students. It's not enough to evaluate the students in a couple of months. I use my master thesis's supervisor as a reference. I agree, I include only people who I'm sure will write good things. Now, I'm lucky in that, because I can say that all my committee members and supervisors were nice. Sometimes, I think I don't deserve all of this niceness, and I don't know how to express my gratitude outwardly, but inside me I'm hugely grateful. If 4 all you got, put them and apply. Don't let it hold you back. Maybe the number isn't a strict requirement.

I haven't looked at the online form. If it'll allow me to only enter 4, then I'll do it. Although it might look like I can't read instructions.