[costello]

Argh! I just have to admit to myself that I'm struggling with depression and do something about it. I don't suffer from major depression, but it's still making me miserable. And it's not getting better. I always feel like I take really good care of myself, but I think I'm going to go back to basics and work on healthy lifestyle stuff.

This morning I picked up Stephen Ilardi's The Depression Cure - which my son's pdoc wants him to use for mood issues. Dr. Ilardi has six lifestyle changes you can make to help with depression. I think I'll work through his book, trying to adopt them one-by-one. I'd like them to become habits, so I'm not going to try them all at once. Some will be easier than others for me, so I'll work through those faster.

The first step in Ilardi's Therapeutic Lifestyle Change (TLC) is to increase omega 3's in the diet. I'm reading that chapter now. I think his recommendation is to take fish oil capsules, but I know from previous research that that's not going to be enough. You have to lower the omega 6's as well. It's a ratio thing.

So, I'll be working on cleaning up my diet first. I think this will probably be an easy step to implement (for me), but it may take time to see positive effects. I already have fish oil, but I think I'll stop at the store today and buy some more and some grass fed beef and may some fish.

And then I actually have to remember to take the fish oil. It's not enough just to buy it!

[costello]

Btw, in his chapter on fish oil, he starts by describing what researchers do to make their research rats depressed. They put them in a cylindrical tube of water and let them swim around. After about 10 minutes of swimming and trying to climb out of the tube without success, they just go limp, barely able to hold their noses aboove water. The researcher fishes them out. Then the next day he puts them back in, and the rats only try for 2 minutes to swim around.

That's how my life feels. I get so tired of being in these situations I feel helpless to change. Then sometimes when a new problem comes up, I give up too quickly. Learned helplessness? I feel like people look down on me when I get overwhelmed by something that seems easily solved. But maybe if they were in my shoes they wouldn't be so quick to judge.

Anyway thinking about those rats giving up after 2 minutes makes me feel a bit better about myself. Of course, you give up quickly or don't even try, if you've learned that no matter what you do, it doesn't help - or at least it doesn't help enough - or the problem keeps coming back at you.

P.S. Sorry if I sound negative. I haven't slept well the last two nights, and I'm so tired.

[costello]

Well, I managed to sleep through the whole night last night. Got to sleep at a decent hour and slept through. I don't know if it's because I cleaned up my diet last night (I'm a low carber who has let a lot of Christmas treats sneak into her diet), or if staying home yesterday and away from the stress at work was what did it.

I took the fish oil yesterday and today. My experience with fish oil is that it doesn't make any spectacular changes in my mood, but maybe as part of the larger TLC it will help.

good luck.

and may look at that myself

[OutofTune]

When I was hospitalized a few months ago, they started me on 1,000mg of fish oil twice daily. It was suggested for high triglycerides. Now after researching fish oil I'm taking it for all the brain, skin, joint, and heart benefits.

As for supplements, have you tried a B-complex vitamin? It's said to have a positive effect on depression and fatigue. Worth trying.

[costello]

Thanks, shattered sanity and OutofTune. I've heard of other benefits of fish oil. I think it's supposed to help with arthritis too? Anything to do with inflammation really. I've noticed an ache in the joints of my hands recently. Maybe it will help with that too.

As for today, I'm still pretty miserable. Not as bad as the last couple of days but definitely not good. I just hate this. Depression makes you turn in on yourself. I noticed I don't want to engage with anyone. And everyone who does make it onto my radar screen just irritates me.

I looked ahead to the rest of the TLC plan.

1. Fish oil/omega 3's.
2. Not ruminating.
3. Exercise.
4. Light.
5. Social contact.
6. Sleep.

I'm pretty good at not ruminating. My sleep's okay as long as I stay with my low carb diet.

I know exercise can have a pretty dramatic impact on my mood, but it's also going to be the hardest one for me to stick with.

I've never tried a light box, but it's the right time of year for darkness to start effecting mood, isn't it?

The social contact thing makes me a bit nervous. I'm not a terribly social person, and in my current mood social contact will probably make me more depressed, not less. Well, I'll take it one step at a time. Maybe by the time I get to the social contact thing, I'll be in a better mood. And maybe Ilardi will have some good suggestions in his book.

[onionknight]

At what dose did he recommend fish oil supplements? I take the Omega-3 supplement, but I never know how much is the right amount...Thanks!

[costello]

Originally Posted by onionknight

At what dose did he recommend fish oil supplements? I take the Omega-3 supplement, but I never know how much is the right amount...Thanks!

Good question. I haven't read the whole chapter yet. I'm basing what I'm doing on what my son's pdoc has told him to do. Since he also recommended this program I was assuming he took his info from the book.

My son's pdoc has told him to take at least 1000 mg of EPA. If you turn the fish oil bottle around it usually says how much EPA and DHA it contains. The ones I'm buying now have 640 mg of EPA per capsule. So he's taking two per day.

I'll look at the book today to see what Ilardi recommends.

I've read quite a bit about omega 3's. The experts seem to agree it's a ratio thing. Since the standard American diet is so high in omega 6's, we need to cut back on omega 6's at the same time we increase omega 3's. Processed foods and vegetable oils are full of omega 6's, so it would be best to cut back on those too.

[costello]

Still not feeling great. I didn't sleep quite as well last night as the night before. Not a disaster, but definitely not as good as I had hoped for.

Woke up somewhat depressed. I have the option of not going to work today, but I'd like to save the personal leave time for some other day, so I think I'll go anyway.

[onionknight]

Originally Posted by costello

Good question. I haven't read the whole chapter yet. I'm basing what I'm doing on what my son's pdoc has told him to do. Since he also recommended this program I was assuming he took his info from the book.

My son's pdoc has told him to take at least 1000 mg of EPA. If you turn the fish oil bottle around it usually says how much EPA and DHA it contains. The ones I'm buying now have 640 mg of EPA per capsule. So he's taking two per day.

I'll look at the book today to see what Ilardi recommends.

I've read quite a bit about omega 3's. The experts seem to agree it's a ratio thing. Since the standard American diet is so high in omega 6's, we need to cut back on omega 6's at the same time we increase omega 3's. Processed foods and vegetable oils are full of omega 6's, so it would be best to cut back on those too.

I found the book and scanned through the chapter quickly. It is 1000mg. Elsewhere, I've heard you should aim for 1800mg to get the full benefits. Right now, I'm taking 900mg per serving supplements. I don't know if I really notice a different. Maybe I'll try a different brand and reduce the bad fats. I have my moments when my diet isn't great...

[costello]

Originally Posted by onionknight

I found the book and scanned through the chapter quickly. It is 1000mg. Elsewhere, I've heard you should aim for 1800mg to get the full benefits. Right now, I'm taking 900mg per serving supplements. I don't know if I really notice a different. Maybe I'll try a different brand and reduce the bad fats. I have my moments when my diet isn't great...

The thing is, it can say 1000 mg on the front of the bottle, but the EPA will be maybe a 1/3 to a 1/2 of that.

I've read of recommendations up to 10 1000 mg capsules per day!

The reason our food supply is so heavy in omega 6's as opposed to omega 3's is that omega 3's spoil faster. If you're a food manufacturer and you want your product to last in the grocery store and the kitchen pantry, you're going to replace as much omega 3 with omega 6 as you can.

Also grain fed beef is higher in omega 6's that omega 3's. Unfortunately grass fed beef costs more. Lamb and bison are higher in omega 3's, I guess, but are also more expensive. (Personally I don't like lamb. )

I've read these books:

1. The Omega-3 Connection: The Groundbreaking Antidepression Diet and Brain Program
2. The Ultimate Omega-3 Diet: Maximize the Power of Omega-3s to Supercharge Your Health, Battle Inflammation, and Keep Your Mind Sharp
3. The Queen of Fats: Why Omega-3s Were Removed from the Western Diet and What We Can Do to Replace Them

They all have good points and bad points. And now that I think about it, they're all a little dated. There's so much new information all the time. Maybe I need to find a more recent book with new research info.

I'm like you-- I've never seen a huge improvement from omega 3's. It can take a long time to change out all your stored fat. It takes like a year for a normal weight person. If you're overweight (and I am), it can take 2 or 3 years.

I'm still not clear on how it all works. I think that if you've been eating a diet heavy in omega 6's, you'll have a lot stored in your fat cells. You need to persist for a long time in eating more omega 3's and less omega 6's in order to tip things in your favor.

I think those are the two reasons people fail with fish oil capsules. They take the capsules but don't change their diet. And they don't persist long enough.

[costello]

I stayed home from work yesterday and slept reasonably well. I'm feeling pretty good right now.

I had hoped to finish the fish oil chapter and maybe even the chapter on not ruminating, but I got caught up watching the news about the school shooting yesterday. That would be doubly a waste of time. First, I failed to do the self-care I had planned (reading the book). Second, I was focused on something distressing.

Which brings up a different topic: I spend a lot of time following news stories that are emotionally draining and distressing. Maybe I need to add limiting time on that to my wellness planning. It may actually fall under the not ruminating rule in a way.

[onionknight]

^ I follow news story that are distressing all the time. The more triggering it is for me, the more likely I am to seek out every last detail, sadly. That's just my personality, I think.

Keep taking care of yourself (or trying at least); change takes time, and is best over the long term anyway!

[costello]

Slept really well last night. (It always seems to help a lot when I get back on my low carb diet.) I still feel a little tired but not depressed this morning. May take a few more days to catch up.

Yesterday afternoon I was positively cheerful. I also noted (again!) how much better my son does when I'm doing better, and worse when I'm doing worse.

I'm still taking the fish oil.

I still haven't finished chapter one. Sigh! I almost wish I were feeling more depressed. Maybe I'd feel more urgency to keep working through this program. I sense it would help me a lot to stay on an even keel when things get difficult again.

Originally Posted by onionknight

^ I follow news story that are distressing all the time. The more triggering it is for me, the more likely I am to seek out every last detail, sadly. That's just my personality, I think.

Me too. The very ones I should look away from draw me in.

Keep taking care of yourself (or trying at least); change takes time, and is best over the long term anyway!

Getting back to the diet seems to have help. We'll see how work goes tomorrow. Right now work is more of a source of stress than home is - and I've been off work 3 days. Could be why I'm feeling more cheerful?

[cookfan56]

Originally Posted by costello

Thanks, shattered sanity and OutofTune. I've heard of other benefits of fish oil. I think it's supposed to help with arthritis too? Anything to do with inflammation really. I've noticed an ache in the joints of my hands recently. Maybe it will help with that too.

As for today, I'm still pretty miserable. Not as bad as the last couple of days but definitely not good. I just hate this. Depression makes you turn in on yourself. I noticed I don't want to engage with anyone. And everyone who does make it onto my radar screen just irritates me.

I looked ahead to the rest of the TLC plan.

1. Fish oil/omega 3's.
2. Not ruminating.
3. Exercise.
4. Light.
5. Social contact.
6. Sleep.

I'm pretty good at not ruminating. My sleep's okay as long as I stay with my low carb diet.

I know exercise can have a pretty dramatic impact on my mood, but it's also going to be the hardest one for me to stick with.

I've never tried a light box, but it's the right time of year for darkness to start effecting mood, isn't it?

The social contact thing makes me a bit nervous. I'm not a terribly social person, and in my current mood social contact will probably make me more depressed, not less. Well, I'll take it one step at a time. Maybe by the time I get to the social contact thing, I'll be in a better mood. And maybe Ilardi will have some good suggestions in his book.

These are all great and they were all working for me for months. Then a few weeks ago, they all stopped working. I still take the supplements and antidepressants, force myself to exercise, I sleep, I get social contacts, have a light box, etc. I feel even more helpless when I know that even with doing all these things I am suicidally depressed.

For me, doesn't seem to be anything to add. I told my husband last night that I'm sure this will be my last Christmas. Not being melodramatic, but after 30 long years of chronic depression, can't take the pain anymore. If I knew there were any things on that list I could add then I could have hope -- but this way there is none because nothing to add. Sorry for the bummer post but the pain I'm in now is so intense.

[Coma Patient 7]

Hemp oil is almost perfectly balanced for fatty acids "omega's".

The initial change is where I generally run into problems myself, once I get a routine down it seems to work better, best of luck on your journey.

[costello]

(((cookfan)))

I'm so sorry things are so hard. I understand how you're feeling right now. I really do. The worst thing is that when you're feeling depressed is when it's hardest to find the motivation to keep up the wellness practices. All I can do is to encourage you to keep doing the wellness things the best you can. I know that seems like crap advice to you right now. If I were feeling as bad as you, and someone told me that, I'd want to tell them to take a flying leap.

When my son was at a really low point, he asked me, "It's going to get better, isn't it?" I said that it would. And then it would get worse again. And then better. And then worse. We want to believe we can pull ourselves out of the muck and leave it behind us. But it's not that easy. Life doesn't work that way. We can just enjoy the peaks and endure the valleys.

Knowing the valleys aren't forever helps keep us moving through them. Knowing that the peaks aren't forever helps us to savor them even more while they last.

I hope you get through your current valley and find the sun of your next peak.

[costello]

Originally Posted by Coma Patient 7

Hemp oil is almost perfectly balanced for fatty acids "omega's".

I thought the best sources were animal fats.

The initial change is where I generally run into problems myself, once I get a routine down it seems to work better, best of luck on your journey.

Making new habits is hard!

I know the hardest for me will be getting an exercise routine down. It's also the thing that will probably help me the most.

[costello]

They say you should be careful what you wish for. I said yesterday the depression was clearing off too fast - and taking my motivation with it. Well, it came back. Luckily it's not overwhelming. It did motivate me to finish reading the chapter on fish oils. I thought he did a pretty good job. He mentioned something I'd forgotten. I'll need to take an antioxidant with the fish oil, because omega 3's are unstable and generate a lot of free radicals. He suggests vitamin C - so I'll add that.

He also acknowledged the omega 3-omega 6 ratio. The more omega 6's you consume, the more fish oil you'll need to offset it. Or you can lower the omega 6's in your diet.

He also says you need GLA when you're taking fish oil. I didn't know that. He suggests primrose oil, which my son does take. (He actually read the chapter before gobbling fish oil capsules! )

I was surprised that he says fish oil is the one thing that his patients say help them the most in his plan. I've never noticed a huge change from fish oil in the past.

[Coma Patient 7]

Originally Posted by costello

I thought the best sources were animal fats.


Making new habits is hard!

I know the hardest for me will be getting an exercise routine down. It's also the thing that will probably help me the most.

Not for omega's, fish is decent but it's proportioned incorrectly for humans, Hemp oil is nearly balanced.

I know what you mean, just changing my routines at times can be beneficially even if it's difficult at first.

[onionknight]

You know, I was meaning to say this before: Beside mood, fish oil can help cognitive functioning. For me, one of the worse symptoms associated with bad bouts of mental illness is lack of focus, to the point where even reading becomes impossible. I started taking omega-3 supplements because I wanted to protect my brain/ nuerlogical functioning from decline. Also, there's omega-3s in flax seed. I eat the flax seed bread so I'm getting it as a good source intrinsic to my diet.

I think consistent excercise is very important. I used to work-out every day, and now I'm down to two or three times a week because of my schedule with work an the distance to the gym, which a drag. Working-out was a staple of my life. I'd be better off if I had more structure...

[costello]

Originally Posted by onionknight

You know, I was meaning to say this before: Beside mood, fish oil can help cognitive functioning. For me, one of the worse symptoms associated with bad bouts of mental illness is lack of focus, to the point where even reading becomes impossible. I started taking omega-3 supplements because I wanted to protect my brain/ nuerlogical functioning from decline. Also, there's omega-3s in flax seed. I eat the flax seed bread so I'm getting it as a good source intrinsic to my diet.

I think consistent excercise is very important. I used to work-out every day, and now I'm down to two or three times a week because of my schedule with work an the distance to the gym, which a drag. Working-out was a staple of my life. I'd be better off if I had more structure...

Thanks, onion. The information about cognitive functioning very interesting to me. I appreciate it.

I have used flax seed in the past. And chia seeds. I don't eat bread much - being a low carber, but it's easy to throw ground flax seed on salads and things.

I think exercise is important too. I don't know why I have such a hard time sticking with it. In a way it's self-reinforcing. I feel better, so ... I should want to do it more. But it doesn't seem to work that way. I'll stay with it a few months then give up.

[costello]

Originally Posted by Coma Patient 7

Not for omega's, fish is decent but it's proportioned incorrectly for humans, Hemp oil is nearly balanced.

Thanks, Coma Patient. I've never read up on hemp oil before. I'll have to check it out.

[costello]

Stayed up too late last night watching Perry Mason (why do the people always confess right there in the courtroom?). So, I only got about 6 hours sleep but not from insomnia. I'm a bit sleepy this morning but not depressed. Of course, I haven't left the house yet.

Actually I think it's good that my base mood seems to be okay. It just doesn't take a lot to push me over the edge these days. A woman at the grocery store upset me so much by stepping in front of me in line yesterday. I guess I'm more reactive than depressed right now. I feel fine until anything the least bit challenging happens. I can calm myself usually, but it take so much energy. It drains my batteries.

I guess I shouldn't be staying up late watching Perry Mason on work nights, eh?

I investigated light boxes yesterday. I know that's taking the book out of order, but it's the right time of year to think about light. If I keep working this slowly, it'll be February before I start working on light. I found a box for $150 - which is a lot for my current budget. Still researching it.

[Coma Patient 7]

Originally Posted by costello

Thanks, Coma Patient. I've never read up on hemp oil before. I'll have to check it out.

You're welcome Costello, here's one more link that may be of assistance. It's helped me greatly with my diet. It lets you set up a personal daily diet profile and calculates everything for you and it's free.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/...roducts/2626/2