[ShaggyChic_1201]

No reply needed - just documenting the weirdness of my life

So there was a rabbi and a pastor...sounds like the beginning of a joke, right? Actually, it's my life.

I'm a Messianic Jew who believes in Jesus. I live 70 miles from the nearest Messianic synagogue, which is run by a rabbi. I live 5 miles from a church, which is led by a pastor.

I filed for divorce last week and my H has contacted both of them. The rabbi called today to tell me that marriages are covenantal agreements that should not be broken. He wanted me to go for yet more marital counseling and couldn't understand why I would leave. I finally told him, "Rabbi, I've intentionally kept all the sordid details of our life quiet, but if you need to know them to understand my decision, then I'll be happy to share with you."

I honestly thought he'd say no thanks. But he didn't. So I shared a 6 page letter that details some of the horrors I've endured with this man. The last paragraph reads "I can forgive because I am forgiven, but I’m having a hard time forgetting. Because there is little trust between us – he doesn’t trust me because of the Meadows [treatment center] and the ultimatum - there is little intimacy or even communication. Most nights I was in one room and he was in another. I was worried enough about his homecoming last Thursday that I asked a mutual friend to come and retrieve all the firearms (both legal and illegal) from the house so there was less likelihood of a violent encounter. Now tell me Rabbi, if this were your wife I was writing about, would you want her to stay married to this person? Would you be telling her that a covenant is binding and non-breakable, or would you be saying, dear – I know you want the best for him, but he is not willing to help himself. He is a mentally ill, alcohol abuser or alcoholic, drug using, violent man and I think you should do what you need to do to be safe?

Think I'll get a response?

The pastor, on the other hand, was completely different. He asked me what percentage chance my husband had of staying my husband. Since I hadn't filed at the time, I said 5%. He said, OK - a chance! Then talked to me for an hour asking questions of what was going on in our marriate (something the Rabbi has never done). After the talk was done he said, "I empathize with you. I will support you in your decision to leave H and will work with you both to make it as amiable as possible"

Guess where I'll be going for services from now on?
Bub

[hamster-bamster]

Well... that was a good litmus test

[Harley47]

Hmm...well, it's a heck of a gamble on my part, but...the pastor?

Will you get a response is a good question...I dunno. It will certainly be an interesting read if he does. I would hope he would realize that in some instances (yours by far being one of them) what must be done must be done. It'd be cruel of him to expect you to remain married in light of all this.

Glad you got all the guns out...I was still worried about that. Have things been going okay?

Hugs,
Harley

PS: Messianic Judaism...is that simply Judaism with acceptance as Jesus as He's written in the New Testament? lol Not trying to get preachy or nosy (as I read my question to myself, I could see it being interpreted either way), but I've never heard of that (I'm from NC...unfortunately, religious diversity is not a strong suit down here), and I love learning about other faiths.

[slopatient]

Good... it is a excellent

Originally Posted by Harley47

PS: Messianic Judaism...is that simply Judaism with acceptance as Jesus as He's written in the New Testament? lol Not trying to get preachy or nosy (as I read my question to myself, I could see it being interpreted either way), but I've never heard of that (I'm from NC...unfortunately, religious diversity is not a strong suit down here), and I love learning about other faiths.

Messianic Judaism is a Biblically based movement of people who, as committed Jews, believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Jewish Messiah of Israel of whom the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke.

To many this seems a glaring contradiction. Christians are Christians, Jews are decidedly not Christian. So goes the understanding that has prevailed through nearly two thousand years of history.

Messianic Jews call this a mistaken - and even anti-Scriptural - understanding. Historical and Biblical evidence demonstrates that following Yeshua was initially an entirely Jewish concept. Decades upon decades of persecution, division, and confused theology all contributed to the dichotomy between Jews and believers in Yeshua that many take for granted today.

read more

I think this could have happened either way though. I've found some pretty rigid pastors in my life, and not all are as understanding as they should/could be.

[ShaggyChic_1201]

UPDATE - Rabbi has been converted to my side (pun intended)

I got two responses. The first was a bit snarky and I sent a barbed email in response. Not my finest moment, to be sure. I know better than to send an email when I'm angry, but I did it anyway.

To my shock, I received an email that included the following:

"Firstly, you are TOTALLY justified in wanting a break from all the pain of your relationship with H. Scripture is plain that you are a temple of G-d's Spirit, and the protection and care of the temple is a great priority.

(he quoted some scripture)

In fact, H has not at all been treating you as a temple, but really defiling and destroying you in many severe ways. He is indeed "of this world" and in violation of Torah and G-d's will, and hazardous to your health and well being. You are indeed in a toxic marriage, and this action of separation would have been justified many years ago. G-d bless you for your current action in appropriately honoring yourself by requiring a separation.

Secondly, I am really impressed that you have maintained your faith in Yeshua and scripture, despite the fact that the one who led you to Him has been a dramatically a misrepresentative of holy manhood. It would be easy to "throw out the baby with the bathwater" and abandon your faith in light of this horrific example of Messianic/Christian living. I am really proud of your discernment and depth of faith and understanding."

He added one more line that shows he's not a fan of divorce...

"This is all to say that separation and boundaries are right and good and needed. But, that is still not the same as abandoning hope for the relationship altogether. BUT, only after massive intervention and real repentance on H's part!!" ... but is also practical enough to see that it might be warranted.

All in all, I'm extremely impressed by him and have told him so.

[hamster-bamster]

Well, I think that if rabbi can guarantee that you will live forever, then he can suggest that you wait for H to change his ways.

Rabbi's response shows that he is oblivious to the fact that you have a finite lifespan.

[liveforfish]

Question: Is your husband a believer in Christ? The Bible does allow divorce when you are a believer and he isn't.

[hamster-bamster]

Bub,

I think the keyword here is empathize.

The pastor empathizes.

The rabbi plays with various quotes but does not empathize.

[ShaggyChic_1201]

Hamster - Thank you for this comment. I was wondering why I was uncomfortable with that part of the response and you have nailed it. I do not want to wait around being miserable in the hopes that maybe H will consider and then actually follow through on attempting to achieve recovery. I'm middle aged already and we've been married 10 years. The past 15 months of which I have been discussing this issue with him (H) and telling him I would leave if the situation didn't improve.

Interesting anecdote that says a lot about his desire/ability to honor and respect me. I don't think I've posted it already, but forgive me if I did. It's short.

About a month ago, H asked me why I wouldn't consider marriage counseling. I said we had already been to 3 MCs. He said, "well, I didn't know that we were going to try to save our marriage" [Bub's thought here: um, WTH did you think we were going for?!] But there's no point in being inflamatory so I didn't say that. We then discussed that yes, that was indeed the purpose of the MC, and I gave a brief timeline of how we wound up in MC at all. H said he understood and was sorry he didn't know that at the time.

So, after that discussion, we were all clear - he knew what my issues were and that things were perilously close to the end. And one week later he gave me the "avail myself of your services" speech and sodomized me against my will.

At that point, I realized that he either cannot or will not honor and respect me. It becomes my final straw. And to again confirm Hamster's statement, I just don't want to wait around hoping for a miracle anymore. I truly believe in miracles and certainly pray for them in this case but I'm not willing to wait for it anymore. If through divine intervention and/or significant work on H's part, H can embrace a new lifestyle, he will make some other woman very happy. He has many good qualities of course - I've only listed the bad ones - and has the potential to be an amazing H.

[ShaggyChic_1201]

Potential trigger - religious discussion

Originally Posted by liveforfish

Question: Is your husband a believer in Christ? The Bible does allow divorce when you are a believer and he isn't.

Liveforfish - I have a hard time answering this question. Yes, H is a believer who struggles with wondering if he is saved or not. His actions, IMO, are not those of a believer.

I've been to the Bible many times to try to get guidance on what to do, but I'm not smart enough to make my way through what seems to be conflicting advice even within one book. 1 Cor 5:11 says, "not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one."

But 1Cor 7:12 says "If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife ... for how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband?"

And that's just two verses. I can find many for both sides. In the end, after a long night of tears and prayer, I begged G-d for a verse I could understand and hold on to. He gave me Deut 2:3: You have skirted this mountain long enough; turn northward.

So I turn my attention northward and upward.
Bub

[avlady]

Bubsmiley Welcome!!!!!!!I am so glad the pastor agreed with you, you needed to get out of that relationship for fear of your life too. I've been through all that, i mean leaving someone who was dangerous to be with. I'm glad someone saw that and am happy for you now, just stick with your decision-please!!!

[Meisjes]

My pastor at the time of separation said it was his job as a representative of the church to keep marriages together. H stayed there and I moved on. Next pastor said, when H came to his door "to tell the pastor to force me to go back to him" with his huge Bible under his hand, he knew right away that H was pretty st*p*d. He didn't use the term often - but did call a spade a spade and abuse, abuse.

[liveforfish]

I do not know the full story or H background.

Maybe a separation is needed for both of you. It could be temporary or a set time.

Once the separation is done and you live in separate homes, try counseling again. We often see life different when away from the situation. H probably doesn't believe you'll ever leave, thus he will never try to change.

Many pastors will agree with separation vs divorce as a first step.

Prayers to you.

[Harley47]

Thank you S4ndm4n.

I'm glad the Rabbi came around Bub. Turning northward is, I think, a change that you very much deserve and one long overdue. You deserve to be happy in your marriage. While I understand your Rabbi's sentiments, there's a limit as to what you should be willing to put up with, and there's the practical matter of a lifespan, as Hamster said. He has long surpassed that limit. You deserve much better than what he is to you.

Kudos to you to taking the steps to get through this, and know you're in my prayers.

Hugs,
Harley

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by liveforfish

I do not know the full story or H background.

Maybe a separation is needed for both of you. It could be temporary or a set time.

Once the separation is done and you live in separate homes, try counseling again. We often see life different when away from the situation. H probably doesn't believe you'll ever leave, thus he will never try to change.

Many pastors will agree with separation vs divorce as a first step.

Prayers to you.

See the many mentions of lifespan and middle age above and below your post.

[Inedible]

Am I the only one thinking "Silly, Rabbi. Trix are for kids!", like the slogan for the cereal?

Whether H gets help or not, the important thing is that marriage is not the life sentence it used to be. Just guessing, but it sounds like if he had behaved the way he is behaving now when you first met, that you would not have married him. He was not honest about the kind of person he really is, and it sounds like he is not keeping his marriage vows to the effect of loving, honoring, cherishing, and respecting in both good times and bad. It sounds like he is actually directly responsible for quite a lot of the bad times. Lots of women think they they will take on a man with the purpose of fixing him up, like restoring a car or putting fresh paint on a house. Men go into the relationship expecting to stay the same. It happens often enough to be the subject of jokes and stories. It doesn't work and results in frustration for all concerned. And to borrow / paraphrase from Buddha - to throw in another religion - it is better to be alone than to endure someone so stupid and thoughtless.

Also, am I the only one who is thinking that the Rabbi and Pastor are both men? That maybe there are religious leaders out there who are women, too, and that they might be able to give you a unique perspective? At minimum, that they might not have a bias in favor of poor H who is about to be left by his W?

[Leed]

I have to agree with Inedible in that it's a shame that almost all pastors, rabbis, and ALL priests (catholic) are men. Wouldn't we perhaps get a different point of view from a woman?

The fact that Bub, you've been abused for so long and now sexually abused it proof enough that this marriage is over. God does NOT intend for you to suffer this abuse forever! This is tearing away your self-esteem, your self-worth, and certainly doesn't help any depression you might ALREADY have.

God gave us BRAINS enough to do something about terrible and painful situations. He expects us to save ourselves and our children (if any) from dangerous and hurtful situations. So I vote for getting out while you still have plenty of good years ahead of you! You're a wonderful woman. Leave this brute and move on -- find someone who DESERVES you and will LOVE and PROTECT you the way you deserve!.

I wish you the very best Please keep us posted, will you??? God bless and please take care. Hugs, Lee

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by liveforfish

I do not know the full story or H background.

Maybe a separation is needed for both of you. It could be temporary or a set time.

Once the separation is done and you live in separate homes, try counseling again. We often see life different when away from the situation. H probably doesn't believe you'll ever leave, thus he will never try to change.

Many pastors will agree with separation vs divorce as a first step.

Prayers to you.

That could work with a H who has an annoying habit of not taking out trash until 1) the garbage pail is overflowing, or 2) the W reminds him to take the trash out.

So one can argue that H would not change his wicked ways until he is faced with the reality that W might indeed leave him.

Bub's H rapes her - see Bub's post above yours

[hamster-bamster]

For 'full story'.

No further comment on the difference between overflowing trash and crime with using force.

[Meisjes]

Its shocking how many ministers will side with the abuser in the name of keeping family together, that they are not willing to protect the victims.

[Inedible]

Why is it shocking when so many religions see God as male and women as property? If more men started talking to them about being abused, then perhaps they would re-think the idea of keeping the marriage together at all costs.

[eskielover]

In reality, it doesn't matter about the INTERPRETATIONS of the clergy....the only thing that matters is what God says to you & he has spoken very clearly in telling you to turn your attention northward & upward. The Bible is the only word that counts.

I actually left my H 6 years ago.....moved 2100 miles away. Initially I was going to leave it as just a separation.....but he's going to destroy me financially if I don't get the divorce. I am working on the divorce now after he let the house go into foreclosure last year, & my name was also on it.

I didn't have the abuse you are going through with your H....but I had the problem where he wasn't responsible to be able to take care of anything financially when I wasn't capable & he destroyed us.....I left when I got my inheritance after my mother died. I didn't care at the time what anyone said.....I couldn't handle the feeling of anger that completely filled me....I could no longer function & would end up seeing red anytime I had to deal with him....living in the same house for 13 years while being separated was HELL.

I know that God was the designer of this move because it's been a chance to come to a real relationship with God that I was never able to have before.....a whole new world opened up with this move. Divorce is only to protect me financially & I wouldn't bother if that weren't the case. It's wonderful to have the support of all my believers support I have.....they have no problem with the divorce & have never said anything negative about it after hearing what I have gone through with his lies by omission.

For me, I am 60 & decided when I left that I will NEVER marry again & no sexual relationships outside of marriage so initially it didn't matter whether I got divorced or just stayed separated....but the financial issue became huge & the lawyer said the only way to protect myself is through divorce......church people & pastor & friends have no problem with that. I'm filing for divorce out of state, but trying to negotiate some of our things because when I left I basically ended up leaving almost everything I owned.....H packed my moving truck before we had determined it to be a complete separation.....or things would have been backed differently.

[learningursula]

For real only you can make that decision cause it's your life you have to live it not the pastor or rabbi. Only you feel what this person put you through!! This is a chance to begin again and be happy and safe. The pastor has the right idea though.