Where is the line between advice and passing judgement... and more....

Where is the line between giving advice and passing judgement? Is it advice when it is something that someone is willing to hear and judgement when it is something someone doesn’t want to hear? Is that the difference? Can one offer advice without being influence by one’s own judgements or opinions? Can one do one without doing the other? Can one really offer unconditional, unbiased support to another? Is that why therapists ask more questions than they provide answers? To be supportive does one need to silence their own feelings, opinions, reactions?

Is empathy enough? Is giving someone a soft place to land or a listening ear enough of a gift for someone to feel supported and comforted? I have been thinking about this the last couple of days while trying to be supportive of members who are caught in difficult situations.

I remember hearing somewhere that the forums are for support and not for giving advice. I have always wondered how one does one without doing the other. How does one provide support without giving advice? Is it the fixer in me that causes this dilemma to remain unanswered for me?

Observing with these questions in mind I see the effectiveness of posts that offer hugs and sympathy and leave it there. Maybe a probing question or a provocative statement but no advice. I see and experience the calm that comes over me when someone acknowledging my pain without saying more. When I am assured with a hug that I am not alone and that someone hears me and cares enough about me to want to hug me and comfort me.

I see and experience the counter effects when someone offers advice when my head is already spinning with my own awareness of what I should or could or need to do. When all I want is a hug and to be told I will be okay. That the pain will pass. The suffering will end. I will be okay. When I am assured I need not do anything but rest in the comfort and safety of a warm friendly unconditional hug.

I also see and experience the support I feel when someone does offer me advice. When someone shows me a way out of my suffering. When someone challenges me to think differently, to make different choices, to take different steps to move out of my suffering. When someone shares their experiences and tells me how they survived a similar situation. When my hand is not only held but I am guided to a safer, better place.

How do we as members of a support community know how to be genuinely supportive of others when there are so many variables at play? Do we as seekers of support need to somehow communicate the form of support we want too? It is that reasonable or even doable?

Beyond all that I also wonder how do we monitor our own investment in how someone receives our support? This is huge for me because I do find I overinvest sometimes and I almost need someone to follow my advice before I can rest or feel good about my support offering. It can become as much about me needing to be validated for what I have to say or have experienced in my life as it is about them needing or wanting my support for their situation. I can get upset if someone doesn’t follow my advice. I think at the time it is because I care about them and want to see their suffering end. I question myself to see if that is all there is to it or if I have entangled my own needs in the mix. I am learning to measure my investment by my reactions to how my support is received but I find it challenging to keep it simple. To keep it simply about supporting another who is in need. To not over invest in either how my support is received by the one in need or how my support is interpreted by other supporters.

I wonder if others wrestle with these kinds of questions regarding their participation on the forum. I just wonder how I can better manage my contributions. I am looking for opinions and advice. I welcome all points of view.

.......WoW sanity ,,, lots of an idealist point of view IMO ... I apologize if I may have misinterpreted. But IRL ,, I have found truth does not set you free >> if it is directed towards a person you care about. ....especially if they find out second hand. Going through your own personal life shattering hell >>> does not excuse you from the above mentioned \"set you free\". I am an Idealist at Heart ,, and would rather people ask first of me ,,, why ? >> rather than embark on crusades of revenge. But human nature blends in and stops rationality ,, and when that seems to be the case ? >>> losing face , takes precedent . We second guess our actions as a way to placate ourselves... IMO. >>>.. only to hold on to our first reaction/s/ ,,, so as to not seem ,, or be deemed weak. Everyone has the choice to ,,, * Turn the other cheek * and then!!!! see what happens?... But as you question ,,, the thought of support ? ...and [from what I read into from your writings ],,I would only suggest >> if it feels good ? DO IT !! Never over think ,, but be there for another ,, as you would wish others to do for You . Sorry about the waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy to cliche ,,,LOL . But maybe ya get my drift ? T/C Seeker. M&M

We are not the ones to judge, we don't truly have a right, since we do not know everything. To be the least judgemental sounding you can be, you have to keep an open mind and speak that way. You have to ask yourself, if I say this will it offend the other person? You have to tell the person that whatever your are saying is only because you care. You are concerned and you want the best possible outcome for them. I have given advice in this forum when it was asked for. They don't always take your advice. They have to follow their own hearts, heads, voices, etc. They have a destiny to follow that we can't interupt, but perhaps it is our words that end up stirring them in the safest direction, we can only hope. People have free will, and they will do as they please or as they can. If they don't feel like they can at that point in their life take your advice, it has at least affected their thinking and maybe they will take it in the future. Please, don't worry too much about what you say, it is most likely not to hurt someone's feeling if you are only saying it with compassion. To answer your question, no, you can't truly give advice without your opinion. A definition of advice is "a proposal for an appropriate course of action". A definition of judgement is "the capacity to assess situations or circumstances shrewdly and to draw sound conclusions ". And no, I don't think that empathy is always enough. Many people that post like myself are wanting other's advice or opinions. Some people need other's opinions to get answers. I like the hugs, but I like other's ideas also.

Also, I think being negatively judgemental is telling people they are wrong, when not or before offering advice. If someone feels like you are being judgemental or attacking them, then they will take advice the wrong way and/or completely dismiss it.

For me.... I think the difference between advice and judgement is the difference between empathetically telling someone what to do and telling someone what to think/feel.

For example:

Problem: My best friend put the moves on the girl I like and now they are dating. He even knew I liked her and pursued her anyways! I want to get back at him! What should I do?

Advice: I understand that you are feeling heartbroken and betrayed right now, however revenge is not the answer. Getting back at your friend will not erase the past. Evaluate your friendship with this person and decide if they are someone you still want in your life. If so, maybe a break from them is in order so that you have time to heal.

Judgement: You're acting like a child. Now you have learned the value of going after what you want right away. Next time, don't let your fear get in the way again. Quit being so jealous and try to be happy for your friend.

(((((((( sanityseeker )))))))

Support comes in many forms and that can also include advice. Some people asking for support just want someone to listen and need a hug. The power of a cyber hug is quite wonderful for many people who never receive comfort in real life.

You said that you get upset in real life when people don't take your advice. It's been a journey for me here in PC to learn that it is up to the individual in what they do with that advice as they may not be in a place to do anything about it. That can be frustrating but please know your support is heard, it just might take a while for the other person to take it on board.

On the issue of advice versus judgement it is all to do with how you write and come across. I have been here for many years and learnt how to. Many people come here asking a question and needing answers. Offering support is an art in itself. It's not what you say but how you say it.

I think one of the dividing lines between advice, judgement and support is acknowledging that one does not have all the answers, complete information or the context to tell people what to do or how to feel.

It's rather insulting to be on the receiving end of something like "just don't do that" or "It is idiotic and irrational to ....", or, even worse, "i question your credibility..."

No one has all the answers to anything. No one. We do not have a shared history, nor have we walked a mile in anyone's shoes. It's about not jumping to conclusions.

Support need not to only be in the form of hugs, but it does need to be realized that our advice is coming from our own internal frame of reference which may or may not be applicable to all.

I have to be careful not to get too involved (in my mind) with the problems that others face. I gave advice to a person once that ignored all advice that everyone gave her, but she still kept coming back for more advice. It was very draining for all that were trying to help, but I feel like I got in way too deep. I was genuinely upset over this girl's situation and I had to step back and tell myself that she was the only one that could live her life and make her choices. It was not on my back whether or not she took the advice. I still have to distance myself from situations so that I don't get overly involved. ...Just a different viewpoint on the situation.

It has been in my experience (pertaining to the receiving of) advice vs judgement:

When being advised, it is offered to me with compassion, concern and patience.
The approach is calm, rational and includes all possible aspects pertaining, (what's influencing and variable results). I am offered unabandoned dedicated guidance until it is clear to me an understanding.
The results have a far more positive, lasting effect. I feel I am allowed to have the feelings I have, the acceptance to express them and the freedom to feel them.
(What I do with that understanding is completely up to me and it is made clear to me that the choice is mine to be made without following repercussion with that person advising).

When being judged, opinion is thrown upon me without warning or request or without concern of how the approach effects me.
I feel as though I'm placed on trial and blamed for my actions, belittled for my choices and casted shame for expressing them.
I am not provided understanding for mistakes made or opportunity for explanation.
The results leave me feeling casted aside, unimportant and without value.
I learn to suspect others to attack me if I express myself, so I decide it safer to repress them, leaving me alone to deal with my casted forced sense of insignificance.
(What I do with those results has been a inner battle of mine for years, which I have yet to win that war, however, refusing to wave a white flag of surrender).

Because of how I've received advice vs judgment, (with judgement taking precedence since early childhood), has dictated what I am today.
I do my utmost best not to cast judgement upon anyone as I know how horrible and lasting those effects can be.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but for many, so long as they keep it to themselves, (unless asked), as they haven't a clue how to be diplomatic, supportive, compassionate or aware.

Imo,
To be advised requires a search for answers, (whether or not we act upon them).
To be judged is fault casted upon us, (whether or not we've earned it).



Shangrala

Don't forget that judgement has two sides that are related to your question :-) I have good judgement but I can also be critical/judgmental (using the word "critical" often helps understand the two sides better for me as I want to be "discerning" (critical) but not "unkind"). It all kind of goes with the territory though. I believe that you are asking these questions at all means you lean toward the more positive side of things.

I try to do my best and that's all I can do :-)

Thanks everyone for taking the time to share your thoughts. I guess at the end of the day it is as much about balance as anything else. Maintaining a sense of awareness of yourself as well as the person you are offering support to in any given situation. Giving thought to all of your intentions, even those that might not be obvious and considering how your intentions will affect another. Examining before posting, or thinking before speaking about what your words say and how they will be heard.

I take from your thoughts too that one needs to trust their own instincts while checkng thier motivations. Let good, kind and honourable intentions be your guide. Giving without expectation so that one can offer a helping hand and words of encouragement without investing in a particular outcome.

I do over think things a lot. Thanks for indulging me and offering your thoughtful considerations.

Much appreciated. More food for thought. lol.

((((((sanity))))))

i so get what you are saying and asking. i have a tendency to get over-involved in other people's struggles too and worry about them, and i am also much better at giving advice than emotional support. i wish it weren't that way but it's a learning curve i guess.

as perna mentioned judgment has a couple of different meaning. there is the sense of making a good, wise judgment (decision) concerning an issue and then being judgmental which she aptly described as being critical or mean or nasty. also it depends on whether or not we are talking about moral issues or just issues of personal preference. this is key. deciding whether or not to eat chocolate or vanilla ice cream is about personal preference and there is no right or wrong answer. something like "should i kill someone?" well that's obviously a moral issue and most everyone judges/decides/discerns that action to be wrong. maybe being judgmental has more to do with criticizing the person where having good judgment is about right and wrong conduct. so some things are right and wrong (or black and white) and some things are personal preference (grey). but when we say everything is right or wrong (black and white) or everything is personal preference(grey) we have overstated the case in either direction. it's not an either/or but a both/and.

when someone is being judgmental they might even try to make things into a moral issue when it really isn't. "that shirt is so ugly." that is supposedly making a judgment about something that is really just a personal preference/opinion. "ugly" has no objective standard and so is subjective and just a preference. the person isn't right but they think their preference is a moral judgment and may become insistent about this. this is judgmental in my book. the problem comes in when we as people collectively disagree as to whether or not an issue is a moral issue or just a personal preference/opinion. we make errors on both sides of the equation by sometimes saying something is just a preference when it really is a moral issue and other times by saying something that is a personal preference is a moral issue. we humans know how to mess it up well. of course this all begs the question as to how we know what is a moral issue and what isn't, but that is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish i am not going to get into.

we can be neutral on issues that are not moral like what ice cream to eat, which job to take, etc. but we can't be neutral on moral issues. there do seem to be some basic issues that most people will agree are moral issues: murder, lying, stealing, adultery, etc. there may be some exceptional cases where it is going to be right to lie or maybe even steal but most of the time most people can agree that these things are wrong. when we can't agree on whether or not a certain issue is a moral issue or just a personal preference then unfortunately lots of conflict can ensue and people get very opinionated and judgmental.

as for giving advice without being judgmental i think it's like what others here have already said. i can tell someone they shouldn't steal that $1000 from their employer (i've made a moral judgment about the issue as being wrong) and say it nicely or i can be abusive and judgmental about it and scream my head off at them and call them all kinds of terrible names (i've made a moral judgment but also been a jerk about how i communicate that). so, we can give the same advice nicely or meanly.

also, i do think sometimes people need advice and not just support. some of us, like me, need to learn to offer more support rather than advice though. but if i've just driven my car into oncoming traffic i don't need empathy or support i need someone to say "turn the car around now!" so we don't get in an accident and die. i also think it's great if people tell us how we can best help them or if they do or don't want advice.

Community Guidelines



support -- (the activity of providing for or maintaining by supplying with money or necessities; ``his support kept the family together"; "they gave him emotional support during difficult times'' )

support, back up -- (give moral or psychological support, aid, or courage to; ``She supported him during the illness"; "Her children always backed her up'' )

• sponsor -- (assume responsibility for or leadership of; ``The senator announced that he would sponsor the health care plan'' )
• patronize, patronise, shop, shop at, buy at, frequent, sponsor -- (do one's shopping at; do business with; be a customer or client of)
• help, assist, aid -- (give help or assistance; be of service; ``Everyone helped out during the earthquake"; "Can you help me carry this table?"; "She never helps around the house'' )
• promote, advance, boost, further, encourage -- (contribute to the progress or growth of; ``I am promoting the use of computers in the classroom'' )
• undergird -- (lend moral support to)
• second, back, endorse, indorse -- (give support or one's approval to; ``I'll second that motion"; "I can't back this plan"; "endorse a new project''

information -- (knowledge acquired through study or experience or instruction)

• cognition, knowledge, noesis -- (the psychological result of perception and learning and reasoning)

The noun judgment has 7 senses

• 1. (19) judgment, judgement, mind -- (an opinion formed by judging something; ``he was reluctant to make his judgment known"; "she changed her mind'' )
• 2. (11) judgment, judgement, assessment -- (the act of judging or assessing a person or situation or event; ``they criticized my judgment of the contestants'' )
• 3. (4) judgment, judgement, judicial decision -- ((law) the determination by a court of competent jurisdiction on matters submitted to it)
• 4. (3) judgment, judgement, judging -- (the cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions)
• 5. (1) opinion, legal opinion, judgment, judgement -- (the legal document stating the reasons for a judicial decision; ``opinions are usually written by a single judge'' )
• 6. (1) judgment, judgement, sound judgment, sound judgement, perspicacity -- (the capacity to assess situations or circumstances shrewdly and to draw sound conclusions)
• 7. sagacity, sagaciousness, judgment, judgement, discernment -- (the mental ability to understand and discriminate between relations)

advice -- (a proposal for an appropriate course of action)

• recommendation -- (something (as a course of action) that is recommended as advisable)
• indication -- (something (as a course of action) that is indicated as expedient or necessary; ``there were indications that it was time to leave'' )
• admonition, monition, warning, word of advice -- (cautionary advice about something imminent (especially imminent danger or other unpleasantness); ``a letter of admonition about the dangers of immorality"; "the warning was to beware of surprises"; "his final word of advice was not to play with matches'' )

____________________________

The question presented by sanityseeker is quite a poser. No doubt, I have been in violation of the Community Guidelines on many occasions. Even so, after spending some time sorting through the Guidelines and definitions (arbitrarily selected), I am more comfortable about being in compliance than I originally perceived.

The Guidelines employ "support" and "information" as conditions precedent to posting. We must utilize judgment in deciding how to support and provide information that may include an appropriate course of action (advice).

My view is just that. Others assuredly will have opinions that differ from mine. Even so, the discussion already has served to remind us of our obligation to responsibly post.

Nearly 5am here and I can't sleep so it was nice to come back here to find another contibutor to the conversation and to read again what everyone has had to say. Gives me a reason to think about this some more.

It seems to come down to the fact for me that it is more about communication style than anything else. I like how Bloom followed up on the definitions that perna offered which took me back to those that Shadow offered and that sent me to the dictionary and thesaurus to get even more clarity for myself.

I like how Perna made a distinction between judgement and being judgemental because while it may not be accurate for us to put a negative spin on the word judgement (the capacity to assess situations or circumstances shrewdly and to draw sound conclusions; - definition provided by Shadow) I think most of us generally see the word judgement in a negative light. Advice on the other hand (proposal for an appropriate course of action; definition provide by Shadow) is more commonly recognized to be a gentler way to express an opinion. Judgement being the more authorititative opinion does not necessary recommend a course of action as advice requires but simply states a conclusion or a determined position.

Perhaps that is why it gets more of a negative slant. It is colder and less personable a word in our common use of it. Distinquishing between being judgemental and making a judgement reinforces that further. We generally interpret 'being judgemental' as a forceful expression of an opinion. The distance between judgement and advice then is more about communication style than any major differences in the definintions of the two words themselves. One in fact relies on making a judgement or holding a position before they offer advice.

As Bloom and Elliemay both suggested one's judgement or subsequent advice is influenced by his or her individual and collective references. As Bloom suggested it is sometimes a fine line between what is an absolute and what is a preference when basing a judgement. Social order depends on some absolutes but it can be tricky when too much pressure is exerted to impose too many absolutes.

As I have gotten older I have tried to view the world with fewer absolutes while I am coming to a judgement about things. I try to be more considerate of another's point of view than I used to be. No matter how radically different than mine. When I was younger I used to be very legalistic and dogmatic about what was right and what was wrong. I seldom held back my opionions and was pretty aggressive in how I expressed them. My advice was for the most part judgemental. Even demanding. My points of references growing up.... my dad primarily but other influences as well framed how I saw the world and thus what I expected of others in the interest of social order and a collective code of ethics.

For many years now I have saught a more peaceful co-existance with people whereby I can view the opinions and actions of others with more of an open mind. I think I have reduced my absolutes to simply one guiding principal, namely, 'do no harm'. Beyond that anything goes. It challenges me everyday because I still have the old references popping up with auto pilot like reactions. It requires me to step back to look for other points of view. To listen carefully so that I don't impose my own beliefs. I have to come back to my one principal and drop any other influences that might try to sneak in.

In practical terms that means when I am offering support I have to be very mindful of our individual right to our own opinion. Beyond doing no harm to self or others there are no absolutes of right or wrong, in my opinion. I can have an opinion about anything and everything but I haven't the authority to render a sentence along with my judgement and or advice. I can postulate a potential outcome to someone's actions based on my own frame of refereence and even offer some cautionary warnings again based on my own references but I can't render a determination of any outcome. I can't know with absolute certainty the consequences of someone's actions unless I percieve an action to lead to personal harm.

As Shadow suggests I can't know enough to judge. It reinforces for me that I need to be careful not to assume whomever I am offering advice to shares any of my frames of reference on a particular subject or situation. I need to be mindful that we are all different and those differences affect how advice is received. I find myself here on PC more and more checking where a poster is from to get a clue as to differences we may have because of geography and culture.

While it is up to the receiver to take or leave any advice given I think as other have expressed that it is still a responsibility of the giver to be respectful of the receiver's views before offering advice. Maybe that is where the perception of being judgement kicks in. Depending on the subject one may appear judgemental to some while being viewed as simply 'right' by another who may share the same point of view.

Have I not just gone full circle again? Or am I deciding the real determining factor is, as has been pointed out already more than once that it is about style and not so much about the substance. It is less about what we say then how we say it. Again, do no harm. Treat others as you yourself would like to be treated.

Thanks for indulging me once again to ponder these questions with me. My intention is to grow into being a more caring and compassionate person and to learn the art of doing no harm in word and in deed no matter the circumstance.

Hi Byz... noticed your post after posting mine so will read it now. Thanks for contributing to my ponderings.

Thanks Byz.... short of having checked the guidelines for clarity it looks like we checked the same dictionary. Thanks for posting the definitions.

I appreciate how concise you were in assessing the conditions and clarifying their applications. I agree with your conclusions. How come it took me a thousand words to figure out what you stated in a couple of sentences.

I will chalk it up to a personal indulgence of my manic over thinking. Thanks again for chiming in. I was hoping you would.

((Sanityseeker))

I used to work for a pediatric cardiologist, and we really loved our patients and their families. When I first started, I became attached to a little boy and his family. He was very sick, so we saw them almost on a daily basis. His heart condition was bad and he needed surgery - but his heart gave out before the surgeons could get to him.

It ripped me apart too because it was a requirement we give our hearts to our patients (and families) in their time of need. I asked my boss how he did it every day because a child isn't just a folder to be filed away. After what had happened, how do you pick up the next folder and move on? He said to continue to care and continue to give it your all. If it works, that's great. If not, at least you know you've given it your all. Even when the outcome is tragic, a family will be able to find closure a little easier when they know everyone involved gave it their all. We are human beings....we are not God.

The key for me was to realize my patients did not belong to me, even though they did - just like the folks here don't belong to you.

I'm the same way with my friends. We'll give each other advice on occasion, but it has no impact on our friendship. I got into a heated argument with an online friend once because we both stood firm on opposing views and refused to take each other's advice. I was afraid she would "defriend" me. It was completely unmoderated, and the crowd thought they were about to witness a brutal cat fight. When it was over, my friend said "That was FUN!" We both learned a little more about each other, why we think the way we do, and our respect for each other grew even stronger. I'd walk through fire for that woman, and I know she'd do the same for me.

If you are willing to give your heart, be sure not to attach any strings. Offer what you can, and allow the people to take whatever they need - even if what they need is to ignore your (or my) advice.

If my post doesn't make any sense or does not apply to this thread, feel free to disregard my rambling.

Thanks for sharing, KathyM.

You make total sense to me Kathy. It is a challenge not to over invest in people's choices and to sometimes unknowingly attached strings or expectations to any support or advice offered. I guess I don't like to admit how often I do that but if I do then I am more likely to change the behaviour in the future. I know part of the motivation is to validate myself and assure myself that I did or said something useful. If my advice is ignored than I judge myself more than I do the other person. I think I wasted their time with my useless advice. It could go either way I suppose whereby I would then criticize them for not listening to my wisdom. There was a time in my life where that would absolutely be the case but it seems since my bipolar kicked into high gear the last decade I am generally just not that secure in what I offer anyone and will look for them to validate me. Following my advice has become one form of them demonstrating my worth. Geesh... pretty self absorbed how I make someone else's situation become all about me. Dang! Something more for me to ponder. lol. Now I will ask for you to please excuse my manic thinking and potentially endless rambling.

Thank you for sharing your stories.

To me, advice is offered with the best of intentions, at least out of respect, and hopefully out of love. Judgement is when we think less of someone because they won't, or didn't, do what 'we' would do. We evaluate them negatively because they aren't 'us'.

If I were to say I do not agree with your choice but support your decision, I believe I am supporting the person and am not being judgmental. People may disagree without being disagreeable.

I think that sums it all up pretty well. Thanks Byz.