Question about Borderline Personality Disorder.

ALthough I have a degree in Psychology, I have never worked with BPD clients. My daughter-in-law seems to meet the criteria for this diagnosis with one exception. Although she rages, hits, etc my son, she absolutely refuses to discipline her 3 year old out of control son. He curses, spits, hits, body slams his 21 month old sister against the wall, has pushed her down 4 steps, destroys home furnishings, etc etc etc, yet his Mother does nothing. Can anyone shed light on why she would never discipline him? Do those of you with this Dx have issues with disciplining your children ? I appreciate any information you could share with me !

No trouble disciplining my 11, 8, and 5 year old. But when the 11 year was two - I was introduced to 1-2-3 Magic. Now I moved more towards a chip earning reward system.

Have you ever watched that "Nanny Show". It gives people the tools - the story is pretty much the same the parent is at their breaking point of no longer knowing what to do. The "nanny" basically observes and then gives tools. Now I don't know in the long run if this show really helps anyone...

There could be many reasons...

1. Things are so out of hand - no idea how to recover
2. No tools
3. Lack of support from your son
4.Over/under disciplined as child
5.Possible that bpd drains the energy right out of her

You mention a degree, I'm sure you could probably come up with another 20 reasons other than bpd for the lack of discipline.

I have a theory and I hope I can explain it properly.

As you know, Borderlines see things in black or white. This includes ideas of what is good or bad, likes and dislikes, right or wrong, idealism or realism.

One thing I noticed as I grew up was this idea I had about my parents. Now, they were the typical parents - father the major disciplinarian; mother the comforter. Now to me, I viewed this as my mother being the "angel" and my father being the "devil" (classic black and white thinking).

Now, use this idea to view how your daughter-in-law views her children. If she is truly borderline, or even has tendencies toward black and white thinking, she may see one child as being always good (and will not recognize the bad this child is doing because she may see him only in the "white," so to speak. If she rages against her husband (your son) she may see him only in the "black," possibly as I did with my parents. The child is good; the father, bad.

Make any sense?

It would be interesting to see how she treats the young daughter as she grows. The black and white may manifest itself between the children as well, or does it already?

I'd really like your opinion about my theory, because to me, it makes total sense (from a borderline perspective, that is).

Altered State

I've been thinking about your question since you first posted it........ took me back to when I was little, around all my siblings. My BPD mother treated each of us (there are 7) in VERY different ways. Her favorite, who happened to be just a few years older than me-- was allowed to bully and harrass me most of the time. This sister would do horrible things to me and mom would.... oh.... about 10% of the time, when it was particularly cruel-- mom would step in and stop that sister. Could your daughter in-law feel that her son is her favorite? ..... and my mom didn't want her "favorite" to get mad at her(I think that "fear of rejection" came into play)-- so the favorite got away with just about everything.

I don't know though if this really has to do with Borderline...... maybe it's just dsyfunctional parenting?

Anyway-- I'm really sad for the little sister--- I think I can literally FEEL what she is feeling. It breaks my heart-- wish I could help her.

To you Parker for noticing the unbalance-- and to the little sister---

mandy

Wow - thanks for much for the very helpful insights ! I was thinking I was asking more along the lines of "how does this behavior fit into the Dx, or actually, how it doesn't fit"....and not only did I get explanations about both, I can truly "see" what you mean. Since the son was the child she "wanted" and the daughter was the child she "got". SHe does not allow my son to discipline her son, but of course he can discipline his daughter. (The son is not my son's child) Yes, the son is obviously her favorite, and as so clearly explained to me by those responding, I understand she could be actually not "seeing" the son's misbehavior since he is her favorite.

Her rages are directed at everyone in her life except the son, and her boss. She can be nice, polite one minute, and screaming curse words the next without missing a beat. She wants every single second of my son's day accounted for, and heaven help him be 2 minutes getting home from work. Now he is drinking to "take the edge off her rages". Neither are receptive to counseling.

Direction - I love the Nanny shows and have encouraged them to watch the show, to no avail. I am learning how to cope with the grandson who misbehaves, but I am not allowed to discipline him either. I have put him in time out once , and heard about it for weeks. I actually had the 3 year old help me make a rewards chart, discuss it with him, he was excited, but his Mom wouldn't even put it up.

Again, thanks ! I truly "get it" now, thanks to the great explanations, and I so appreciate it.

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

Please do NOT put a lable of "favourite" on the child. It is not as simple as that! It is strictly a matter of loyalty - and loyalty can often be misunderstood and at times, misplaced!

Look at the two most secure things in her life:

Her job - if ANYTHING, it is her only "real" security, especially if this is a second "marriage," or whatever! Nothing and noone is a guarantee in life, anymore. At least not like it was 40++ years ago when one would "stick it out" for the kids...(and, like that was ever really healthy, either...)

Her first son, who has always been (even before your son), and by virtue, HAD do give her his loyalty, just to survive, (and she responded appropriately - maybe not rightiously in your eyes, but appropriate to her perceptions (and, I will NOT condemn her for the stand she took, no matter how unfair it may seem to you!)

Her boss guarantees her survival - beyond your son (for who knows what may happen in the future...)!!!

In the world of Black and White, these two people (who represent loyalty GIVEN (first son) and loyalty SHOWN first (her boss), in her mind, may represent security - security, which after all, is given mostly when loyalty is shown (by her and longer). As a woman, it is very hard to "believe" in the "saving graces" of a husband these days (and guess what? Most "other sons of another man" are not that readily accepted over their "own" children...

[quote/] Now he is drinking to "take the edge off her rages". Neither are receptive to counseling. [\quote]

His drinking is HIS PROBLEM - not hers! This is the way HE IS CHOOSING TO DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE! So is both their refusal to accept counselling.

[quote/]SHe does not allow my son to discipline her son, but of course he can discipline his daughter. (The son is not my son's child)

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Nor should she. For the most part, he cannot, legally, touch him. He can discipline (and should have certain authority, over) him in other ways, but touch him? Learn your laws!

[quote/]Yes, the son is obviously her favorite, and as so clearly explained to me by those responding, I understand she could be actually not "seeing" the son's misbehavior since he is her favorite.

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DO NOT MISINTERPRET WHAT IS BEING SAID... I CAN SO 'HEAR' WHAT YOU WANT TO 'HEAR,' here...

Do not think that your grand-daugher is NOT as loved. Do not place your assumptions over your daughter-in-law's feelings! After all, her daughter is still HER CHILD!!!! If there is cause to believe there is unjustice between the two, then by all means, intervene.

If you are, indeed, a psych student, then I suggest you do much more research - and keep an objective view....

For as you speak in your posts, I am getting the impression that you are just looking for ammo!!! Someone truly interested in psychology would be taught to be OBJECTIVE!

Can you be? Even when it concerns your son, and "real" grand-daughter??

In your heart, what does it mean to you to accept a child of "no blood" to you? Can YOU consider loving him as your own?? Do not be offended...many admit to this very intimate bias...

As a professional, I ask you to reconsider what you have wrote thus far.

Altered State

BTW - I am not allowed to discipline my boyfriend's daughers either, but I can certainly tell them what the rules of THIS HOUSE are!! They are all teens, and they listen...

And trust me, they are not to be easily controlled, and they are smart enough to know...

AS

I'm confused. How do you know the son is the favourite? How does she discipline your 21 month-old granddaughter? In what ways do you see her favouring the son? Perhaps she just has a very passive parenting style -- one that doesn't match with yours. It's so common for mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law to disagree about the "right" way to be a parent. It sounds like you are concerned, but ultimately, they are her children, not yours, and it's not up to you to determine how they are disciplined. If there were issues of child abuse or neglect happening, it would be your right (and your responsibility) to report it to the authorities, but absent those factors, you really don't have a say in the matter.

I also don't think it's safe to assume she has BPD because she rages at her husband and curses, etc. It sounds like they have some major problems in their relationship... and I agree with AlteredState that your son's drinking is his own choice. He needs to take responsibility for his own behaviour. Having a raging wife doesn't MAKE him drink. He chooses to drink. For his own good, he needs to find a way to improve the relationship or get out of the relationship... and accept responsibility for his own actions. I'm sure they would both benefit from counselling. It's unfortunate that they're unreceptive, but that's beyond your control.

Their relationship sounds terribly unhealthy, but I am glad to hear that your daughter-in-law doesn't direct that rage at her son (and I certainly hope she doesn't direct it at a 21 month-old toddler). In my opinion, the screaming and drinking that is happening in the relationship is more concerning than the fact that your daughter-in-law doesn't discipline her son. That kind of environment is extremely damaging to children and I wouldn't be surprised if it is contributing to the acting-out behaviours of your daughter-in-law's son. Children need to feel safe and secure and they can't feel that way when they have a chaotic, unstable home life. Perhaps if you talk to your son about how this could be affecting the children it would encourage him to do something to improve the situation. I'm assuming you have a much closer relationship with him than you do with your daughter-in-law, so perhaps he would be receptive. Good luck. My heart breaks for the children. I hope things get better.

while I am not in Parker's situation, so I can't state for fact what is going on with things..... I will say--- AlteredState I don't agree that a 3 year old is able to give "loyalty"... as you say.

It happens so much that a parent favors a child over their other children-- and it could be the case in this situation--- but maybe not..... It's hard to say---

it's just so very wrong though for an older sibling to be allowed to wall-slam a smaller child--- the smaller child may grow up expecting everyone to be like that to them.

A mother is supposed to nurture and protect-- every child they have.(IMO)

This just really hits a nerve with me- I don't mean any offense to you or anyone here.

mandy

Wow - I can only apologize for thinking I understood what was being offered as help. I certainly have never meant to upset anyone on this site, I truly was looking for an answer to my real question - "If her being Dx'ed with BPD, how does not raging at the son fit"........and that truly is what I was asking in the first post.

AlteredState, I really thought I understood your first post and it explained how the black and white thinking could come into play with the son. She STATES the son is her favorite - the child she "wanted" vs. her daughter - the one "she got". I actually have 2 "step granddaughters" who I never refer to as "step". I love them as if they were my own children, and yes, I am completely capable of loving a child not born from my own child. My husband and I both have been involved with the "stepson" since he was 7 months old. We have done absolutely nothing different with him than we do with our other grandchildren....until he started with the cursing, spitting, hitting, etc. At that point, we made a decision together that we did not want the other granddaughters around him, as they have never heard the words he uses , nor are they allowed to act out as he does. We did not want them learning bad behavior from him.

Having been a step parent for 25 years, I was always allowed to have "house rules", and use appropriate methods to discipline my stepson. I understand the "legalities" involved with not beating or smacking a child, however, had my husband told me if his son spit in my face, I was not to correct him, my 25 yr marriage would have ended 24 years ago. He lived in our home, he was a part of our family, and he knew what was expected of him. My son LOVES his stepson. He has always treated him as if he were his own.

Yes, I agree 100% my son's drinking is HIS CHOICE. We - my husband and I do not drink, my son was not raised around drinking, but his choice is to drink as he says "to take the edge off her rants and raging"......an excuse? Perhaps - but it is a fact he didnt start until her rages became more and more often and more violent.

I am not a student of psychology, I have a degree in psychology. I have text books and I did read up on BPD before I posted here. I always loved this site, because people who suffer with different diagnoses could help others. I offer help in the anxiety section, as I had panic disorder and was agoraphobic. I worked with the local Mental Health Clinic and only saw clients with PAD. I had no first hand knowledge of BPD, and was confused about the issue I have mentioned. I truly was asking to learn more, and hopefully help me understand. Perhaps I don't understand what I thought was a wonderful explanation by AS in the first response.

I apologize for my thinking I understood this dx better, and will keep researching. Thanks to those who responded....and yes, their relationship is anything but healthy.

Really? I believe a child will do just about anything to ensure their existance, otherwise, so many of us would not even be...Alive.

I would NEVER CONDONE the abuse of one child over the other, nor use it as an excuse for it to continue. I would not be shy in standing up for a child's rights, either!

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It happens so much that a parent favors a child over their other children-- and it could be the case in this situation--- but maybe not..... It's hard to say---

This just really hits a nerve with me- I don't mean any offense to you or anyone here.

mandy

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None taken, especially with an incredibly VALID point!

Do we ever know the extent to which our behaviours affect others? If we did, we would not be able to survive!

I believe, that we are the ones that feel the pain of the world, most especially for the children that we know come behind us - in a world even notoriously more vicious than what we grew up in!

I can't even imagine THAT kind of pain, because I am too screwed up with my own!

Altered State

I have another theory. Maybe it fits with some of the others that have been offered. I have struggled with disciplining my children too, at various times and in various circumstances. The single thing that I have the hardest time with is getting them to clean their rooms. If I sit there and supervise them (without which they would just play and not get anything done, or make a bigger mess), I get too mad and risk being out of control. I get mad because they aren't working, or because I'm working harder than they are and they aren't doing anything, because I discover damage they have done that I hadn't noticed before, or because they have my stuff that I told the a million times not to take. I am afraid of my rage, which I never want to direct against my children. So it's best for me to keep my distance, even if it means I can't get the kids to clean their rooms.

I also have liked or even disliked my children at various times. There was a period during which I didn't like my son (the youngest), and didn't want to touch him or be touched by him. I really didn't know why, except that he reminded me too much of my brothers when they were that age, and I hated them at that age. I guess boys can be annoying when they are 3 or 4 years old. Eventually I got over it, and I found something I had written when he was a baby that reminded me that I enjoyed him as a baby more than I was able to enjoy my girls as bablies. I felt closer to him. I've had ups and downs with the girls too, but at the time it is very hard to see that my feelings have changed so drastically over time (weeks, months, years).

Rage is often an issue for people with BPD. So is the up and down pattern with relationships. Usually we think of that in terms of romantic relationships, but it is played out in any susceptible relationships, including with our children. Your DIL might favor one child this month or year, and favor the other one next month or next year. She may be completely unaware of the pattern.

Being able to understand the patterns is a step towards being able to fix the problems, but it isn't enough to fix it, and neither does it make it okay. Therapy may be more help if she would consider going. Therapy can also help family members to deal with the situations, whether or not the person who has BPD will seek treatment.

Parker10,

I am purposely not looking at any other responses here, because I am only trying to state, in my own words, what it is like to have BPD, and especially when it relates to b&w thinking.

As I have thought further, it is I who should have said to myself; Whoa, whoa, whoa... not to you!

This is a perfect example of projecting either to the black or to the white. It is so hard to explain, because with each piece of new information I (can and may) add to the thought - be it reality (actual cold, hard facts) or from within my own perception (often reality skewed), it will change my point of view, yet still be black or white. Know what I mean?

For instance, my first reaction was to "misinterpret" some (or all) of what you said. I take that perception and run with it - either to the positive or "white" (incredibly rare) or to the negative or "black" (most common) - for me.

For each NEW piece of information comes a whole new set of thoughts, again, either black or white. This cycle seems never-ending...

As for being confused? Don't worry!!! We are way more confused about the whole concept of black and white (because we live with it and don't always recognize it) as you are in trying to understand it!

I don't mean to disrespect you in any way whatsoever. Most of my reactions may seem intelligent at the moment, but with further meditation, comes deeper insight. Thank goodness, there are other points of view to read...

Black and white thinking is not as simple as being black and white (although one may think it should be so - it would certainly make things much more easier to deal with).

Anyway, there is a reason why many professionals tend to shy away from treating borderlines - we just keep projecting in black and white, but in many, many different perspectives. THIS always seems to create much confusion, and with that comes much mistrust, and mostly within ourselves. These will even wax and wane between each person in our lives. One moment, I may trust you completely; the next, I will become paranoid because that view has swung from, well, either black to white, or vice-versa.

One thing I do believe about those who actively seek out help is that they are cognisant of these swings and are trying desperately to find balance. Some, unfortunately, take longer to find out about their behaviour patterns, if they do at all!

At least you have the "knowledge" to help you decifer these complex cycles, and hopefully, you have the capacity to empathize as well as remain objective (so hard to do at all times), especially when you are in a situation that is, to a great extent, beyond your personal control (and of course, this is your family!)

Love your Grandchildren as much as you can. Be their rock, if at this time, their parents cannot be. Of course, it will be a battle - it will always be a battle - but the best thing for those kids is to see good examples - most especially examples that are grounded - or solid.

The greatest thing that children have is the ability to know "truth" when it is in front of them, and, hopefully, as consistently as possible.

Take them under your wing for a while. Watch them. When they are confused, talk to them openly. Good morals, no matter how simple the mind, always resonates! I love that about children - I miss that part of my childhood...

The best way is to do this "under the radar." You do not have to influence by great scenes. Often, it is the softer voice that is heard.

Hey Parker,

How are you today. I found your first post very interesting, and I understood exactly what you meant. I also have a psychology background, however, I dont talk about it in reference to my posts in any forum I venture in.

I have noticed that if and when I do, I am guaranteed a certain amount of angst to be generated.

However, in discussing my own MI issues...I have been lucky to generate good will and many many new friends with similar life experience.

I really hope you and I can chat some more.

Annie

> "If her being Dx'ed with BPD, how does not raging at the son fit"

well...

first law of diagnoses: more people meet NOS than 'typical' anything.

it is important to remember that first and foremost your sister is a PERSON and not a typical instance of any diagnostic category.

if you think that she could use some help then it would be nice if you could try and find some for her...

otherwise... pays to be wary of psychology student syndrome (which tends to hang around after graduation) where bachelors students and young graduates like to go around putting the people they know into little categorical boxes because... they can.

further study is quite often the antidote.

you make it sound like if there is a diagnostic category that lists her behaviour in symptom lists then there is no trouble explaining it. but a diagnostic category just is a behavioural symptom list so diagnostic cateogories don't explain why anybody has the behavioural symptoms they do. as such any 'explanation' that is given by attaching a label to someone... is a pseudoexplanation. it hoodwinks insurance companies and consumers and is oftentimes seductive to others as well.

if you think your sister could benefit from professional help then then maybe you could talk to her about that?

AS _ Thanks for the follow up post. I appreciate your openness more than you can know. My husband and I try very hard to be good examples to our grandchildren, as well as having lots and lots ofhugs and kisses for them ! I am totally staying out of any part of my son and his wife's "issues" - he is an adult, and has to live his own life. I might hate seeing him with claw marks on his face, or a bruise on his cheek, and I have hugs for him too, but I say nothing anymore - he deals with his wife in his way. I am totally pleasant and non judgemental towards D-in-L when we are together, which is often, as all our family lives within walking distance on my husband's family homeplace where we all built new homes. Walking distance out in the country can be a long way, and even in winter, we still HEAR D-in-L frequently. We have offered both son and D-in-L help financially to see a therapist, she says she doesnt want anyone knowing her business, and that was the end of our offers or discussion. I would not try to push her into anything......she wouldnt be very nice to my son if I did. (I say that from experience - not "assuming").

AnnieL...I have been on the boards here so long, most of the "oldies" know about my degree, but I also seldom mention it. I am here mainly because I still work to keep my skills sharp to prevent the panic attacks. I also try to help in that forum when I can, not only as someone who has treated the disorder, but someone who suffers from it. I would love to chat , PM me anytime.

Alexandra - thanks for you input. As I stated, I have offered her....my daughter-in-law, help (NOT from me - but some other therapist), and I dont think I would qualify as having " psychology student syndrome"......... I have practiced for 14 years. Also clearly stated - I will continue to study this issue. I truly was asking people with the Dx of BPD about discipling their children.........and it sorta went in many directions.

THe issues with my D-in-L are not new - I have had my granddaughter placed with me 3 times by the Courts....once when my son had moved home (that time was Joint Guardianship - he had to live here with her due to his job), once when they were together (at son's request to the Courts), and once when I was not even aware there was a hearing concerning her SON, and things were so bad (Judge had D-in-L removed from Courtroom 4 times before charging her with Contempt for her cursing and screaming at him). I was called to pick my granddaughter up from the Social Services Office or she would be put in a foster home...and the son was placed with his Father temporarily.........and although she did not get the Court Ordered Counseling, both children were returned to her(and son) at different times. My granddaughter has severe allergies, asthma, and at one time thought to be a failure to thrive, and had one major surgery at 6 weeks of age on her trachea. I would do anything for her, and am thrilled that she is now growing at a normal rate, and although small for her age, the Doctors are no longer concerned about that issue.

Again, thanks for the input !

Parker, you're doing all you can. I know it's SO hard, but your positive influence and your love will make a difference in your granddaughter's life. My family and I are in a similar situation with my niece. Her mother isn't the mother we would want for her and we worry a lot, but it's beyond our control. She has weekdday custody and my brother has his daughter only on weekends and some holidays.

So, my parents have my niece at their house as often as possible and I do the same and so does my brother... and we talk to her on the phone and send her letters when we can't be with her. We just want to make sure she has as much love and support and positive reinforcement in her life as possible. That's all we can do.

Parker hon we have known each other what? 10 yrs now? I know all the crap you have been thru with this dil. I am so sorry it is still going on after all you and your family have been thru. unfortunately as you know we can't force anyone into therapy. although it would be nice in your case! anyway hon I am here for you anytime.

I sometimes do not discipline my kid(s) because I know that if I step in my rage will come out full-force! Also, when one kid hurts the other I feel so helpless and enraged at the same time....I kind of get paralyzed and do nothing.

Though in the past few years I have met with a therapist and had weekly parenting sessions. I've learned lots of tools and parenting skills. Have read one excellent book, ''Setting Limits'', by someone McKenzie, I think. I highly recommend the book. Another favorite is ''How to talk so kids will Listen and listen so they will talk''

The most helpful parenting tools/skills I have learned by getting my own therapy. In gaining awareness about how my past has impacted me, I have become able to be more compassionate toward my own children. Working through the helplessness I felt as an (abused) child has helped me feel 'empowered' and better able to enforce rules and discipline. I used to be 'afraid' to 'control' my kids....to put down the rules....and as I worked through my issues with 'control' I was able to find balance in 'controlling' my own kids....lotsa therapy has definitely made a huge difference in terms of better/healthier parenting.