fooled AGAIN and CRUSHED.

Hi, I'm new to this forum but am a long time member of the Neurological disorder (TOS) forum.

I NEED HELP!!!

I'm a repeat victim of NPD... I thought I had this monster nailed, but dang if I haven't been duped again by a smooth talking attentive man who lead me down a path of ultimate love - only to be SMASHED again - dropped cruely, "oh, we can be friends with privelidges, but I can't love any woman. I'm not wired that way". RIGHT.

I don't think I can trust anything anyone says to me again.

My ex #3 lied to me on such a deep personal level that I really did believe I couldn't trust again. Which is why I so carefully screened this old friend of 20 years ago. Watching for all the red flags and keywords... ex#2 took me 8 years to finally say enough is enough. #3 took only 2 years - that's when I read up on NPD here:

http://www.healthyplace.com/Communit...faq_index.html

after this last event, I had to go back and reread... sure enough. another NPD monster.
I guess I didn't want it to be so... and ignored the warnings.

does anyone have any suggestions on how to heal? or at least regain my self respect? I see a counselor 1x mo and attend a weekly Group for women w/chronic pain and depression. Any small helpful hints? any other horror stories out there, so I don't feel so alone and singularly LIED TO???

thanks,
Anne

Dear Anne,
Yup, I identify. I have been a repeat responder to Ns.
By the way, did part of your exploration take you Sam Vaknin? He's worth checking out.

I have become 'Ntranced' even when I knew it was an N.! It is so, so deep within me. And always so destructive, interspersed with exciting, intense etc, as I'm sure you know. When I realised what an N was, I thought with my tendencies I must be a 'mirror N.' Because my own sense of self evaporates and I become all focused on 'them', which fits the dynamic that they seek.
So, I got in contact with some specialist personality disorder Ts, and got diagnosed schizoid. When i read about that if fitted me even more. However, I havent yet come accrss much in the professional literature about shcizoid in relationship with N.s, but I am guessing it is something about finding oneself in a role which serves the others needs, and gives one a sense of purpose and connectedness that would be otherwise lacking.
As for healing, I am part of a study group and various other things.
Get back to me any of this sounds interesting to you.

good luck with your persuit and exploration.

riversX

Thanks for the reply RiversX. Glad to know I'm not the only one.

Yes, Sam's site was a real eye-opener and got me thru the last divorce with my life intact, as well as some excellent help from a marriage counselor, who after 6 months told me to RUN!

That's why this last attempt at love was so devistating to me. I feel like I've slept with Dracula and not been bit. My hair is standing on end, I'm nauseous and hear the ocean in my ears. keep waking up at 4am... unable to go back to sleep. It seemed too good to be true so I kept running the developments of the relationship by my T. So I know I didn't make a desperate grab for a warm body. This guy made out like everything I wanted - all the same likes, hobbies... and knew him for years so had no reason to believe it wasn't so.

I'm Agoraphobic with PTSD. I should be on a/d, but due to my neurological issue (TOS) I'm on so many other heavy meds I can't add it to the mix safely. Tried cymbalta most recently - horrors!!

Again, thanks so much, sounds like you've walked a dangerous road. Best of luck in your journey!

Anne

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Because my own sense of self evaporates and I become all focused on 'them', which fits the dynamic that they seek.
So, I got in contact with some specialist personality disorder Ts, and got diagnosed schizoid. When i read about that if fitted me even more.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

horoscopes are like that too.

schizoids are typically the next to last people narcissists want anything to do with - the last being other narcissists.

Yes, I don't want to fall into the 'horoscope' mentality: if I read too much into it, any Dx would fit.

Which is why I gave this N. way too many opportunities to express REALITY. Cut him way more slack than I am used to (repeatedly canceling meetings, the pasive-agressive non communication, the incessant braging about himself). These things would have been instant warnings to me - but I guess I chose to not believe what was happening because this was such an old friend from long ago who worked next to me for 6 years. I wanted someone who KNEW ME, AND had all the qualities that he advertised.

In retrospect, I'm glad I insisted on clarifying his feelings, my feelings and a need for reality and not vagueness and double-speak. I think it gave him the signals that I wasn't about to be a victim or walk down a path that didn't exist. That I would NOT roll over and sacrifice my 'self'.

So my plan is to confirm NPD: I figure if the NS (narcissistic supply) stops, he will dissappear. So the last phonecall I got from him, I didn't praise, didn't dote, didn't support... I was competely friendly and upbeat... and used some of his own double-speak to indicate that "people may be trying to USE him, that he was ordinary and not unique, and that I would be very stupid if I were an enabler of others bad choices".

I think he will just go away, proving that no friendship was desired and that this was just another conquest for him.

My question to you all: do I have STUPID written on my forehead? How do I project an air of self-confidence to prevent these types from wooing me?? Or is there anything I can do to sift these loosers out of the mix - without becoming a cynnical &(#@# ?

Thanks for the comments!
Anne

Hi Fnordian,
please could you tell me everything you know about this. I want to find out everything I can, so tell me your sources please. I am intersted in this strange mixmatch of schiz and Ns. I'm just insatiable for knowledge and discussion about everthing to do with schizpd and Npds, not necassarily in relationship to eachother.

thanks!

riverx

Hi VoN.
I have an answer though it may not delight you. I think I'm only qualified to speak from my experience, but I suggest you keep an open mind and then rule it out if need be, but keep questioning.
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How do I project an air of self-confidence to prevent these types from wooing me?? Or is there anything I can do to sift these loosers out of the mix - without becoming a cynnical &(#@# ?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Is there something that stops you from having an instinctive discomfort about things or getting a sense of when something isnt real. Anytime I have been around someone who is in their false self I have felt something not right. Could there be something below the level of consciousness attracting you there?
this is NOT blaming the victim, its about bringing to the light of consciousness what ever there might be that makes you vulnerable to getting hooked in..................
Like Ns have this way of knowing what you need, what you long for and reflecting it........but I suspect there MUST be some clues...... from early on. Did you have a delerious, high feeling in yourself? feel a bit less focused from your own centre of initiative ........... think of yourself as a first class detective, examining everthing..........

over to you..............

ps, yeah, good move about taking away NS. When I've done that it was like pressing the eject button, I was outta there instantly.

Thank you - this is exactly where I need to go with this!!

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RiverX said:
Is there something that stops you from having an instinctive discomfort about things or getting a sense of when something isnt real. Anytime I have been around someone who is in their false self I have felt something not right.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

The instinctive discomfort comes right on cue... but after reflecting on your questions, I believe I immediately discount my feelings as superficial, cruel or unduly harsh. I feel...here it comes... that I'm being as harsh and superficial as my NPD Father was. I bend over backwards to make excuses (just like Mom always had to do for Dad's behavior) for the N's behavior, so as not to feel like I've judged the person without KNOWING (reality) what they REALLY mean.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Could there be something below the level of consciousness attracting you there?
this is NOT blaming the victim, its about bringing to the light of consciousness what ever there might be that makes you vulnerable to getting hooked in.................. Like Ns have this way of knowing what you need, what you long for and reflecting it........but I suspect there MUST be some clues...... from early on.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

What attracts me is the self-confidence of the N. Yes, they first portray eveything I want in a person before I get sucked into their vortex. I didn't think I gave these clues away up front, but I'll watch more closely what info I volunteer next time. I need a strong character, someone with a sense of right and wrong, creative (artisitcally or skills-wise) and a sense of humor. "Smart, but not evil."

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Did you have a delerious, high feeling in yourself? feel a bit less focused from your own centre of initiative ........... think of yourself as a first class detective, examining everthing..........

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

once I thought that a relationship was desired, yes. Couldn't focus on daily tasks, wholly consumed in what the N. was doing or thinking or creating... this go-around, I held fast to ME. Didn't completely lose my 'self' in this... which is what allowed me to peel the layers of the onion and constantly ask for confirmation on what he was wanting from me.

Ever since I was a smal child (2-3) I have had a problem seperating fiction from reality. I "went off to see the world" at 2, walked over a mile away from home, and returned to a major spanking. Heck, the lil bunnies did that in the stories I was read... at 3 I was attacked by guard dogs because I "imagined the BEWARE OF DOG sign read PLAY WITH US". My parents left me alone most of the time. My older brothers (7& 10 yrs older than me) used me as a punching bag both emotionally and physically. I learned more about life from my cat than my parents.

I appreciate your comments and dx... anything that can point me in a direction to read up on myself and learn. Seems T's don't want to come right out and tell you you have "____".

Anne

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RiverX said:
Hi Fnordian,
please could you tell me everything you know about this. I want to find out everything I can, so tell me your sources please. I am intersted in this strange mixmatch of schiz and Ns. I'm just insatiable for knowledge and discussion about everthing to do with schizpd and Npds, not necassarily in relationship to eachother.

thanks!

riverx

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

In order for someone to receive a diagnosis of schizoid personality disorder, he or she must meet at least four of the following criteria:

* Neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family
* Almost always chooses solitary activities
* Has little, if any, interest in sexual experiences with another person
* Takes pleasure in few, if any, activities and rarely experiences strong emotions
* Lacks close friends or confidantes other than first-degree relatives
* Appears indifferent to praise or criticism
* Shows emotional coldness, detachment or flattened emotions
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sch...865/DSECTION=6

any of these criteria in an insignificant other would repel a narcissist. narcissists must be worshiped, and schizoids don't play that.

interestingly, if you do a google of "narcissist schizoid", you'll encounter a plethora of information linking the two pds. some even find there's not a whole lot of difference between the two.

(Anne, I'm diverting a bit here, from your post, sorry, )

thanks for that. I'll go check out the plethora of info when I get time.

But here now with the rest........theres a problem! #
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Neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family. Takes pleasure in few, if any, activities and rarely experiences strong emotions

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

(funnily enough, I suspect some kinds of schiziods get frequenly hooked in with N.s the reasons would take some time to explain, and I'm still discovering them. )
these quotes and others like it are a result of the professionals gettin it totally wrong! This has been countered by the prof I've been reading, and what he says fits my expereince deeply. Its not as simple as these DSM type statements say, and its tragic that poeple think like this about schiz poeple, because I believe it results in so many missed opportunities for healing and for real communication. Its not your fault, and I dont mean to be offensive, its just really just not like that, not from the inside, most people dont realise.

Its something like living in a different reality than others. And as our reality doesnt match, we soemtimes give up and float off.......... but deeply long to be understood and part of and belong.. Only tragically, there is the danger of so deeply giving up that some of us go beyond, sort of seemingly going beyond reach.
But thanks for the info,thanks2: Ill follow it up if I can.

warm regards, riverx :

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I feel like I've slept with Dracula and not been bit. My hair is standing on end, I'm nauseous and hear the ocean in my ears. keep waking up at 4am... unable to go back to sleep.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
By the way, I really relate to these feelings too, I have has similar on my journey in response to relationship with an N. Isnt wierd! how powerful this can be

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
believe I immediately discount my feelings as superficial, cruel or unduly harsh. I feel...here it comes... that I'm being as harsh and superficial as my NPD Father was. I bend over backwards to make excuses

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Yup! For me, I think, a lot of my disorder is because I have been deeply in reaction, trying to counteract the behaviuor of my mother, , which at some level I believe got stuck inside me. like being in deep psychic revulsion, seeking an antidote, often going for a pathological antidote.
there is a post on ....I think p.2 of this forum where further down mandyfins talks about this issue, and so did I. (I find it strenthening to connect with others paralel experiences, so I hope you will too)
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I didn't think I gave these clues away up front, but I'll watch more closely what info I volunteer next time.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
but the issue may be just as much about who you're attracted to, not so much about what clues you give?? ..
as you say later: </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I need a strong character, someone with a sense of right and wrong, creative (artisitcally or skills-wise) and a sense of humor. "Smart, but not evil."

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Would that be like Samvak says the 'frame of reference'? He describes the relationship with the N becomes the frame of reference. My experience of this - and I think I have a roaring disorder when it get triggered- I get what I call 'the nueral loop', like my head runs everthing past my s.o. mentally seeking approval like he/ she arrived uninvited on my mental screen directing opperations. Its a horrible state of affares when that happens, my life is not my own.
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
held fast to ME. Didn't completely lose my 'self' in this... which is what allowed me to peel the layers of the onion and constantly ask for confirmation on what he was wanting from me.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Yes, that sounds like the first stages of healing, i've done that, like returning again and this time really watching..........like 'what the hell IS this?!



</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Ever since I was a smal child (2-3) I have had a problem seperating fiction from reality. I "went off to see the world" at 2, walked over a mile away from home, and returned to a major spanking. Heck, the lil bunnies did that in the stories I was read... at 3 I was attacked by guard dogs because I "imagined the BEWARE OF DOG sign read PLAY WITH US". My parents left me alone most of the time. My older brothers (7& 10 yrs older than me) used me as a punching bag both emotionally and physically. I learned more about life from my cat than my parents.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

((((((((((((anne))))))))))))))

this.......neglect and..........the fantasy...........and being the one to take up the unwanted or left over roles in a family.......... these are very common in the origins of those with the schiz tendencies. (self in exile = new name)
Re more clues/ info etc,:
Well, the study group is IRL, at my place, just me and one other who ids. We are basically hoping others will one day join us by whatever IT means. Its very new and we're feeling our way forward.
We are reading the literature by Ralph Klien, in 'The Disorders of the Self - New Therapuetic Horizons'. (but his style is terribly clinical, almost dehumanising in places IMP, but then he's a pdoc) We also both have a recovery background (the fellowships) Common understanding builds.

well, this is a long post, I hope you come back and find it and that its some help.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
RiverX said:
its just really just not like that, not from the inside, most people dont realise.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

strange. i have a schizoid dx and most of the dsm criteria fits me like a glove, especially the social and emotional aspects. but then too i've been dxed narcissistic by a different shrink for the same reasons. thing is - i don't especially love myself (or hate myself)...i just abhor other people for the most part.

but i'll not hijack this thread further.

I have no problems with the thread being hijacked I am learning a lot from you and RiverX!

Interesting paper written by a girlfriend of a schizoid for a class she was taking, with notes by him beforehand:

http://www.pipeline.com/~dada3zen/sc...a_disorder.htm

Interesting series of essays on how to recognize a person with NPD and why it can be really difficult:

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/index.html

Well, that just serves to remind me how I can be wrong specially when I generalise.
And also, it proves that the professionals disagree as much as anyone does, so it ends up with we have to hold onto our own judgement. But, its useful to be reminded that I should only speak for myself and keep an open mind that the world out there has different experiences.

riverx

Riverx, I have had to conclude that you are somehow not typical of people with Schizoid personality disorder. I'm learning a lot from your perspective on it. You just don't generally fit what I've learned in my classes, and I've wondered if you might have been misdiagnosed. Although I have a brother in law whom I would diagnose as schizoid if anyone asked me. He is married (which some of my professors have told me would rule out Schizoid right there), but other than his wife, he really doesn't like to be around people. Sometimes he gets almost mean about it, or at least what seems rude, but I think that may just be the skills that he has. I know enough about his childhood and family to know that he has experienced a lot of pain growing up, and I'm sure that the way he is now is a way of protecting himself.

One thing that is said about personality disorders generally is that the symptoms tend to bother other people more than the person who has the personality disorder. I have personality disorders myself, and that can be hard to take because the last thing that I want is to hurt anyone else. But I think that seeing the effect that we have on others is an important step to change. It doesn't seem like certain ones (like narcissists) have any desire to stop hurting others, but even narcissistic personality disorder develops as a defense against the harsh and antagonistic world that the person was raised in. That probably doesn't make it easier when you have been hurt by a narcissist though.

The other thing is that we all tend to select mates who are like the models of love and relationships that we know best. So if your father is a narcissist, that could be why you find yourself in relationships with narcissists. Something about it is familiar, and at least at a subconscious level, it is what looks like love. Growing up with a narcissistic parent would also tend to explain how you may have developed your own personality disorder, however it is expressed for you. That would be a painful childhood.

Rap

interesting reading there, perna. i too do not consider my schizoid personality a disorder. it was particularly interesting to me to read michael's stated reason for not associating with others, as he even used the same one word explaination i do when asked... control. everyone else can do as they please but i must have complete and personal control of my atmosphere, to use a planetary analogy. that i do not have such complete control now that i've returned to school probably has alot to do with my increased difficulties with anxiety and panic, for which i am unhappily seeking treatment, and too how i wound up here at psych central.

Hi,
Yes, this opens up some deep and interesting issues.
I take it as a compliment really that I dont seem schiz.

What has happened here, I think is explainable. The info I came accross is totally different to the normal DSM type thing. If you check out Ralph Klien (or Guntrip, he came before Klien, I've only just started his book), - you get such a different perspective, and also, it opens up understanding of people in a different way, and with his approach many such as me can be understood and dxd as schiz who never would normally be.
And that in itself is another hot issue, this business of a 'DIAGNOSIS'. Although I talk about it in a kind of cavalier way, ...it can also have a weird effect on me, and get my issues triggered, like my reaction to someone else taking over my reality and my definition of who I am, the dehumanising side of it. loads of that happened in T. etc. But it was easy enough for me to side step that because when I read Klien, my whole life was explained. (Although not entirely the part about attraction to N.s although, that too is becoming clearer.) It was my mum in fact was an N. not my father. I'd love to know how what you'd think of reading Klien, his books are readable at Amazon.

oh, I could talk about it forever, as you can tell, but I'm trying to do a <font color="#000088"> 'Justice tight ship' </font>thing, I badly need more self discipline, its after m.n. here.

goodnight, Godbless,

riverx

ps I went to amazon, I was hoping to create a link for you, but its just the book details from amazon, you can get inside the book for a few pages............. how does one create a link?

Disorders of the Self: New Therapeutic Horizons - The Masterson Approach by James F. Masterson and Ralph Klein (Hardcover - 7 Mar 1996)