[katiescarlett]

Sorry Narcissists, It is impossible to live with you. You lie, you cheat, and you dissapoint. I know I have one. He hurts me over and over again. I am to blame for everything. I hurt so bad. He doesn't care. He had the nerve to tell me I am fat, I just had a baby 4 month ago. I go to the gym 4x a week. I am working hard. I had a C-section. Yet, while we were dating, he was having sex with his estranged wife of 240 lbs. I weighed 115 lbs at the time. Nothing is ever good enough for a narcissist. So don't ever let yourself think you will be. You can't do enough for them. Making them 3 meals a day, taking care of 5 kids, 2 his, 2 mine, and one ours, will never be enough. He is always tired when it comes to sex, which leads me to believe, what the heck was going on when he had sex with me 5x a week and somehow was with his estranged wife as well. Now I can't even get once the week. The N will beat you down and make you feel worthless. I am telling you get out while you can, before there are so many kids involved you feel trapped. He will come on as your best friend, "your go to guy", sweep you off your feet with words and actions, it''s all a front. He will go behind your back and do whatever he wants. You are nothing. You can never be loved. The N loves himself so much, actually he is in love with himself. He feels he can do no wrong. He believes his lies. Everything you did as a couple is no longer going to happen. It will be what he wants, when he wants, what he wants to watch, telling you there is another TV. Then when you think you are actually making a connection, he will say maybe we'll do that later. Guess what LATER never comes. TOMORROW never comes. Never comes in the loving manner you wish. Seriously, if you have any insight you may be with an "N" run, run run far away. Otherwise, you will be trapped and he will convince you that it is you. Trust me, you can't be to blame for everything. He is not perfect. Noone is. Don't tell him that though, he will hold it against you. Most "N"s have deviant sex. I know, mine has but not with me. I suppose that was the attraction to the ex-wife. She would do whatever he wanted. I have to draw the line somewhere. It really sucks being lonely in a house with an "N". I hate it. I keep thinking it's going to change but it never does. It always goes back to him. He will somehow change everything, throw your past in your face, but if you do it to him, you will pay 10 fold. Trust me. Go away while you still can. I am so confused. I have kids that he puts down. Yet, I would never do that to his kids, because that isn't me. But if I did put his kids down, I know he would go. But expect to be treated like a doormat, walked all over and back again. Don't expect a thing, then you will never be disappointed. My doc asked why I wait for him at night to pay attention to me or talk to me, and guess what, I don't know. I wait keep thinking that he will love me but he is incapable. He is making me hate my ownself. I am rambling but trust me it's all true, very true.

[CJR520]

Our daughter has the same personality, and as long as things are her way, life is good! As soon as someone balks at what she wants, it is all over but the shouting. She knows it all, wants to be the boss, no matter what is going on, and it doesn't bother her one bit to hurt other's feelings. She has ruined three kids lives. Her two stepsons, and her own son by her first marriage. Now they have a 7 year old together that she will probably mess up. Guess what? Mom was there for her all these years trying to help, but no more. She refused to work like others so we bought clothes for the kids, etc. It is over!! Things are not going to change for you. Why do you stay, and be treated like that? I don't know why my son-in-law takes what my own daughter dishes out day after day. It isn't right!!

[VoNPD]

Eureka katiescarlett!!! You have struck gold! (gold of coming to the realization that to the N you are an object to be used or tossed aside - at his or her whim)

I believe once the Victim of Narcissist makes this breakthrough - that nothing they do will make the N behave like the rest of humanity - the time for action has arrived. DO SOMETHING!!! Counselor, lawyer, batterd shelter, anything... ESPECIALLY if kids are involved. My stepson was raised by the N for 5 years and it completely made him an emotional wreck. Plan your escape carefully and secretly, because once the N. gets wind of being abandonded (their secret fear) they can become violent. Make notes of his behavior, recording specific instances. He may try to trick you into thinking those things didn't happen and that it must be YOUr warped thinking. DO NOT FALL FOR THAT!!!!

You deserve a life with real emotions, trustworthyness and genuine love. Your kids deserve this too. It may seem an impossible task, but I am living proof that it can be done and that the grass is wayyyy greener on the 'normal' side of life even if I am alone. Sure, he still stalks me and I am always looking around corners (because he threatened my life once), but with counseling I am standing on my own and very proud of my 'escape'.

I wish you both all the best in this terrible situation.

VoN

[crazybones]

you know what evry1 i hate bad relationships and sometimes dont see why people stay in these types no body deserves to be treated badly i wish i could make evry girl in this world happy but i am only one person i love to see a girl smile and know it was cuz of me i could no matter what never treat a girl bad its not me i hope you figure things out in the long run

[90mphINneutral]

I have NPD and can relate to a lot of what you said but I think you were too harsh about saying you should run from a narcissistic relationship. I mean give us a chance, we are not bad people. We may love ourselves and personally i think non-narcissists are jealous of our self-love.

[RiverX]

Hi Katies. (and hi Von),
If you hadnt mentioned your kids I would have said some different sort of things. But from what you said, your children are being hurt by this man.
First and foremost, they deserve your protection, otherwise they are being betrayed.
I dont speak from the moral high ground, but from my own past. I have been involved with a narcissist, I was addcted to him, My child growing up was damaged by his behaviour. You can probably guess my regrets and pain over this.
What ever it takes to protect your children from emotional harm by this person - specially as he's not their father?-

N. are addictive, you get into the situation that reflects thier way of thinking about themselves, that they are the world, and nothing outside them could ever be valuable or nurturing. This is a delusion.

Theres lots of sources of help if you need too.

Its not so much about how good/ bad they are, its about being at a certain developmental stage, but in an adults body this can be dangerous and create a vortex. My mother was an N. What she touched or got close to she polluted and damaged, and worse.

Sorry if this is a bit grim, but first you need to get you and your kids to an emotionally safe place, before you can think clearly and get perspective.
Good luck.

riverx

[VoNPD]

no disrespect intended 90mph, if there is a shread of cooperation I believe there can always be a chance with enough therapy - but as RiverX said, when children are involved it's more urgent to get them to a safe, emotional place for good, healthy development.

Jealous of N's self love? Puh-leeeze. If you could see it from the other angle, it's revolting.

Jealousy has no place in a relationship either. Just doesn't seem healthy. And that's the goal we all shoot for, right? to have a healthy (or as healthy as possible) life?

it seems from the originating post that cooperation is already right out the window. nobody, NOBODY deserves to be treated like a doormat or an object. I'm all for 'fighting for love' (been there done that), but when the proverbial brick wall has been hit and all available help has been called in and failed, WHY STAY????

[sunrise]

katiescarlett, I have been married to a narcissist for 20 years and only recently realized that was his problem. It was a lot of pain for 20 years, but we're separated now, and will be divorced soon. Best move I ever made. Now that I have made the move to escape from him and his abusive and selfish ways, I wonder why it took me so long. They can be so charming, and from time to time they give you tidbits to make you think there are better times ahead. The dream of love dies hard. But nothing ever changes, and as you said, you can feel trapped because of the kids. I am so glad I finally woke up and am getting out.

Now that I understand things better about my marriage, I know that I will never put up with this from another man. If I ever go on to have another relationship (and at this point I don't want to), I will be able to recognize a narcissist much sooner and will head for the door as soon as I do. Sorry, but no thanks to that.

[katiescarlett]

For 90mphneutral, I have tried to give him chance after chance, a time to just tell me the truth, time to treat me better, by me treating him better. How many chances does a "N" really need, maybe you need to fill me in a little. I appreciate you speaking and admitting you are an "N". I am amazed in a good way.

But my "N" thinks I am jealous of everything. Well i am jealous of some things, knowing he would cheat on me in a second if he knew I wouldn't find out, knowing he slept with his estranged wife and claimed he was faithful to me. Trust me, she knows very personal things about me, she wouldn't have know, she said they discussed me while having sex, then this "N" claimed his love for me and married me. How could I have been so stupid?

Maybe you are not as big of an "N" that he is.....but he is still lying about it. I did get into it with him the other night, but of course, he yet again denied it. What is he so afraid of? I don't believe him. I pretty much told him so. I said, "I want to believe you I really do"....but I have caught him in other lies, only when confronted with the phone bill, for example, did he fess up. He never would have had I not been so vigilant. I can't control his work phone, but I can check up on most things. Let me tell you why I do....because he lied to me a few times and was caught, he will continue to lie to get what he wants, leaving me in the dust, expecting me to just take it. So again I ask, how many chances?

After identifying the problem and trying to get to marriage couselling trying to talk it out for months, how long should I give chances, please please let me know. Maybe being an "N" yourself, you can tell me why this is happening to me. What am I doing wrong? Help me if you can. Please.

[VoNPD]

I gave my N. 9 months of 'carte blanche' (anything he wanted)

I gave my N. 9 months of me confronting him on every level, bringing his family and friends into my problems with him (they were not surprised, nither were they helpful but it's important to have witnesses)

I gave my N. 6 months in marriage counseling.

The Therapist told me, when I had had enough, to RUN!
VoN

[RiverX]

If you'd like to learn more about Ns, I recommend Sam Vaknin's site, you only have to type his name into the search engine.
He leaves you with no illustions about narcissists.

If you trusted your own experience what would you decide?

river

[bluenarciss]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
katiescarlett said:
After identifying the problem and trying to get to marriage couselling trying to talk it out for months, how long should I give chances, please please let me know. Maybe being an "N" yourself, you can tell me why this is happening to me. What am I doing wrong? Help me if you can. Please.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Dear katiescarlett,

from every word you write I can feel how desperate you feel. And how angry and sore. You are deeply stuck in an emotional fight, and I understand every single bit of it.

I am diagnosed as a severe case of NPD, and so at first I felt hurt and misjudged reading what you wrote in your opening posting, because it sounded like "this is the definite truth about narcissists in general". Reading again and thinking it over I now see how hurt and distressed you probably may be.

And I understand and totally accept that. Feelings cannot and do not lie. In my opinion you simply and openly spoke the truth about how you feel in your situation, and I see the necessity of doing so.

Nevertheless, let me try to explain a few things out of my experience and from my personal point of view regarding the effects of the N personality disorder. Maybe this will help you and me and other readers to see some things in a different light and with a new understanding.

NPD causes anti-social and anti-empathetic behavior, and this misbehavior is apt to cause serious damages, no doubt. And it is fully understandable to look for protection and prevention, especially when children are involved, again no doubt.

But not only the ones next to a N are victims of this disorder, the N himself (or herself) suffers from that, too. This PD destroys their lives either, driving everyone to run away as the only solution. It is important to know, that narcisstics do not only fear being lost and given up upon and being lonely - but knowing that this is their central weakness. Narcissism starts with neglect, emotional abuse or love withdrawal, lack of loving devotion and tender caring and things like that. And these wounds never ever really heal again.

A narcisstic person has learned the wrong lessons, and mostly already in early childhood, and these lessons could be described quite identically to those a victim of narcissism claims for himself: I don't really matter, I am not loved, I count nothing, my feelings are not important, I am not respected, I am mistreated, and so on and on...

But: A young child cannot run away. It does not have the option to leave. It has, to be clear in this, not many options at all. But it has to cope with this situation somehow.

So it will run away metaphorically - it will withdraw in its own world, seeking peace and comfort in the only safe place there actually is - in itself. Doing so over the times it becomes a habit and finally an essential part of the personality.

NPD is acquired! It is important to see and to understand that truly and deeply. NPD is in the beginning a self-protective behavior in order to survive in a hostile, threatening and harmful environment. And then the thing begins to take over control and dominates every relationship and becomes destructive in the life of the N.

I think, NPD has nothing to do with self-love, but a lot with excessive and uncontrollable self-protection. If noone else cares about ones needs and feelings, the N decides to do that in place of all the others, whose love and care he as a matter of fact would prefer if he only could believe that he would have a chance to get it. But he cannot believe in that, not anymore. It would be self-loving to develop and establish loving, stable and reliable relationships, especially in family and marriage. Feeling alone and isolated and on ones own is not fine for the N - in fact that hurts like it would hurt anybody. But the N is not able to cross his inner borders - at least he is not as long as he is not successfully treated. Opening, giving, taking care of others, being empathic - this has to be learned first.

One of the typical misunderstandings towards narcissism is, that many people seem to believe that narcissist could be loving etc. That they could if they only wanted. That they do intentionally and with full controll, what they do. But this is mostly a totally wrong impression and understanding. One can only do intentionally and superiorly what one has learned and learned to control before. And the lesson of how to love and trust and care is often unlearned and still to be learned. I cannot be too clear on that point.

Btw, I write this only to explain, not to apologize or trivialize NPD.

Without help and without a lot of painful pressure, most narcissists are not aware of all this. I felt quite right the way I was, until... until serious problems began and more and more trouble with people around me, so serious that I finally was forced to ask myself what my part and my responsibility was and why people always became upset with me. Now I know. But without help I would not have learned the truth about me and my disorder.

What can others do to help out of this mess? What's good and what is not? What would be the wrong thing to do?

I can not say so much here, only a few very personal thoughts.

It is always right to set limits and to show reaction, if hurt. I think it is good and right to confront the N with messages kind of you are doing wrong or you are doing harm.
And on the other hand, it is necessary to seek help. Partners can not solve a serious disorder like this alone without therapeutic help. Giving love is not helpful, it will not change a thing, because the N is not able to really get involved in the process of receiving and giving back, he has to learn first to open up, to become vulnerable, to bear things like fear of loss, jealousy and the whole of the small and big pains of love.

It is of course nothing wrong with loving a partner with NPD. But amors arrows will bump off the iron armour if the target is not receptive, I am afraid.

So first things first. And the first thing at all is to tear all protective walls down. And this requires of course consent. It will only happen if and when the N is readily and voluntarily cooperating in this process (that is very painful to him, because it means to look back on old wounds).

I hope this can help a little. I wish everyone who has to struggle with NPD to find the way out.

bluna

[bluenarciss]

Postscriptum:

Dear katiescarlett,

talking about how hurting sexual unfaithfulness is makes only sense, when your partner is ready to imagine that and change from his view to yours. This requires a change of his understanding.

Of course, there would be a quick method to open his eyes by telling him simply he has been cheated. But this method is cruel and not promising a change for good or the desired result, it would be more a kind of emotional overkill.

Insist on therapy (if you are not already determined to leave). That would be my advice, and I hope the best for you and your family!

Best wishes,
bluna

[Mouse_]

Bluenarciss, Thanks for sharing that!

[mountainstream]

[bluenarciss]

Hello Mouse,

thanks for your thanks!

I know how hard it is for the partners. I see my wife coping with my disease day by day, and I am admiring her strength and patience and willingness to go through everything, and believe me, we had bad times together, and still we are not where we both want to be...

It took months and years of talk (and of arguing, of course), until we both got something similar to real understanding and dealing with my (sometimes changing) conditions. But we made it so far, and we made it together and we are proud of that and we are happy to have tried.

Still there can be days when we yell at each other and maybe secretly even think about leaving. I fear that is part of the game. On my side, I have learnd a lot about partnership and real love. And I have made progress in learning to let my armour down and show my real self and be open to her and trust her not to strike me then.

Our relationship has benefitted a lot this way.

One thing I would like to add to my postings above:

Jealousy is a topic that can come up in non-NPD partnerships as well. What makes it especially hurtful in a love-relationship with a N is, that it seems that sex seems to be better with anyone else but the own partner.

The painful truth behind this phenomenon is that the more intimate and the closer a partnership gets, the more anxious and timid and tense the N. Why? Because sexual intimacy is a field where one can't hold protective shields up. The moment when real closeness comes is the most feared, because deep inside there is always the fear of rejection at work. So, it is much easier to have sex with someone who can't come close or who is not suspected to be interested in that.

This explains for example why there can be "good" sex with the ex. There is no more danger that she could be a "love trap".

This is very frustrating, I know. And, besides, this deprives the N of one of the most fulfilling and joyful experiences just the same way it deprives his partner. N won't feel the pain so much, because his suffering is blocked. But it's there.

But, NPD is learned and so it is possible to learn better ways. There is hope, I can tell that from my own experience. It is not impossible to learn step by step to behave like a friend first and later like a loving partner.

Best wishes,
bluna

[RiverX]

Respect for your journey and what you have achieved bluenarcissus!
I am also recovering from a personality disorder, tho not the same one.
I have been doing some writing and the way you express yourself is great, and its actually the first time I have heard an recovering N. share.
If it would be ok with you, I would like to quote you maybe one day, these are the words I would like to quote:
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
It is always right to set limits and to show reaction, if hurt. I think it is good and right to confront the N with messages kind of you are doing wrong or you are doing harm.
And on the other hand, it is necessary to seek help. Partners can not solve a serious disorder like this alone without therapeutic help. Giving love is not helpful, it will not change a thing, because the N is not able to really get involved in the process of receiving and giving back, he has to learn first to open up, to become vulnerable, to bear things like fear of loss, jealousy and the whole of the small and big pains of love.

It is of course nothing wrong with loving a partner with NPD. But amors arrows will bump off the iron armour if the target is not receptive, I am afraid.

So first things first. And the first thing at all is to tear all protective walls down. And this requires of course consent. It will only happen if and when the N is readily and voluntarily cooperating in this process (that is very painful to him, because it means to look back on old wounds).

But, NPD is learned and so it is possible to learn better ways. There is hope, I can tell that from my own experience.

It is not impossible to learn step by step to behave like a friend first and later like a loving partner.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Only if you feel ok about this and with your consent, let me know.

Great to hear what you shared.

best.
riverx

[bluenarciss]

Hello riverx,

thank you very much for your kind feedback! Feel free to quote my posting whenever you like.

Best wishes,
bluna

[agony007]

bluenarciss,

OMG! what you wrote in your post hit home for me. i have been thinking alot about my relationships with people. i am currently seperated and now that we are not together i enjoy having sex with him! the comment you made about it being easier to have sex with your ex is so true, at least in my case. i find that in relationships i always have to have the upper hand. i can easily detach myself emotionally. i find that everything is swell when i go through the "infatuation" phase of the relationship. then when it gets more serious i want to run. i have been with my husband for 7+ years and though he is no angel, i have dropped him like a hat whenever i want to. i know that this is unfair to him. i am coming to realize that it is not only his fault that i am the one who always wants her freedom and do not want to compromise my so called "happiness" for the relationship. i feel i really need help. i am not sure if i am narcissitic, what do you think?

katie,
i know this is your thread sorry for imposing on it. did you know that your husband had an affair with his ex-wife before marrying him? i agree that you shouldn't allow him to treat you the way that he does. you may want to look into some community resources if you are prepared to leave him. i know you mentioned that you take care of the household, you didn't mention whether or not you are employed, are you? i can imagine how difficult this must be for you and your children. i agree with one of the posters that you must take charge for the sake of your children. you are the one who must protect them. your husband should not be allowed to mistreat the children. i wish you the best of luck.

agony

[Mouse_]

I tell ya, its so hard for N's, they get stuck with all the helpless victims of the world, I mean man, we can't fart with out it being used against us. I mean we made these people feel good about themselves for the first time in their little miserable lifes and then they wanted us to continue doing what they shoujld be doing for themselves...they aint got no life of their own and no original thought but they like to latch on to us N's and suck the life out of us...I say if you don't like the ride, then get off otherwise, you paid your monies so deal with it and stop whinging, man you never see a good N whinge.

(((((((((((((((((((Mouse)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

you just described my mother to a t........ ugh

Jin xoxoxoxoxo

[Mouse_]

Oh JInny, I was half expecting my post to be removed LOL!...I was more messing around...but man, its like something out of a comic book some of these posts...the bad N's...I got me a superwoman suit with a big N on it....people write lonnnnnnnnnng posts about how bad their being treated, expect people to read the posts and their not the N's? I think nariciism is used and abused to be honest...some people use the label like asking how you want your coffee?...yeah I've been dx with NPD and half of those with mental illness could be also...hey its how you look at something at times..and look at "your" part in it as an adult...the 12steps fo alanon are good for that...

someone said we all have elements of narcissism in our personality. I guess what i meant was my mother has NPD, doesnt know or care and also doesn't care who she pisses off or hurts ..... no offense

Jin xoxoxoxoxo

[Mouse_]

Jinny, no yet again i wasnt offended by your post LOL!...oh I can be a real ***** at times...but I can be a kind person at others.....I just felt like having some fun with the N LOL