[chaotic13]

I know we have discussed at times how our spouses either support or don't support our going to therapy.

My H would often attack, get defensive, and tease me about seeing a shrink. In the beginning these attacks would often derail my therapy, cause guilt, shame, and I was constantly questioning everything that came out of my mouth both in and out of the therapy session. Actually me using the past tense here is inaccurate, because I still filter and screen my comments even after 2 years; just the filters have gotten more porous.

Many times even now I avoid expressing certain feelings or withhold key information during my therapy because I don't want to risk violating my H's privacy or sharing things about him without him knowing it or being able to tell his side. Basically, I think, "if he were talking about me, would I be upset with him for sharing X?" Since I am a total freak about my own privacy, a lot of the times my answer to this question is "YES!!!!!" so I avoid discussing certain things.
Unfortunately, therapy being therapy its hard to get to your own issues without exposing some of your partner's issues. So over the course of my own therapy my T probably knows a lot about my H and some of his problems. She says its OK, its all part of therapy, its a safe place to voice those things without it really going beyond the room. That she doesn't judge him and that Ts know they are only getting one side of the story. I still feel bad about it. EVEN though, my H DOES NOT have the same privacy issues that I have.

He tells his health care providers EVERYTHING.In fact when he saw my T once gave her full and unrestricted permission to tell me anything that happened or that he discussed during that session.

He seems to also have no problem telling others about me either..(Until recently that is-Our discussion the other day indicates that he now DOES seem to get that I want my stuff kept private and is trying to honor that.This is a MAJOR improvement in our relationship. And yes I did tell him that.)
ANYWAY...

Now that my H is also in individual therapy with his own T but at the same facility, I'm kind of dealing with the disclosure of private information from the other side.

The other day H was telling me that his T was asking him about me and what he knew about my childhood, parents, background. H acknowledged that he worried about what I would think about this. H said most of what he said was..."I don't know, we don't really talk about that." Or "I have no idea about that." IDK, I think H may have been wanting me to tell him things about the past. Unfortunately, my mind was kind of focused on "OH crap...here we go they're talking about me and how weird I am and trying to figure out why." Although I didn't say it out loud, inside the fear just started to surface.

On the outside,I think I was very calm and relaxed. I didn't want to get defensive and derail his therapy like he derailed mine. I wanted to support him so I let my intellectual self handle this discussion.

I acknowledged that I've encountered similar difficult discussion in my own therapy. I simply told him what my T told me,"Talking in therapy is not gossiping. Its supposed to be a place where you are free to share your perspectives and views on things." I kind of admitted that his discussing me and is perception of my problems makes me uncomfortable, but that its apparently a necessary part of the process. I basically tried to say, "It's your therapy, what your T thinks of me is irrelevant to me, say what you need to say to get help for yourself."

The intellectual me really sounds grounded, secure in who she is, and completely FINE with the fact that I'm currently the topic of his therapy.

The thing is...in reality the stuff that came out of my mouth was total BS. I was just re-phasing the BS that my T has told me.

I know I said the right things to support him and basically gave him permission to talk about me to his therapist. But inside, my paranoia is playing and not listening to my intellect that is saying...this is OK, its what needs to be done to help our family and our marriage be healthier.

But..the all parts of me are not buying into this rational point of view.

I'm just interested in how others with similar privacy issues and insecurities have worked through this issue.

[chaotic13]

I know my avoidant tendencies are holding us back. I need to get those other ego states to accept what my intellect is saying.

[sunrise]

chaotic, as you know, I did some couples therapy with my H with my individual therapist. My T is trained in family systems so is able to see different members of and different groupings within the same family. I have told my T a lot about my H (now XH) but because of his training, he is able to not let that bias him when he was with us as a couple. So much of my individual therapy was about helping me leave the marriage, that it would have been impossible for me not to talk about my H. I needed to do that in order to heal. My T is bound by confidentiality so he can't go talking about my H to other people, so I can trust anything I share to stay in the room. My XH currently sees his own T, I found out not too long ago, and I assume he has talked about me. I expect that. I also expect his therapist to keep what he shares in the room. There are things I have not shared with my own T about my H, to protect him I guess (such as sexual stuff). You know how guys are about sex. Since my T also saw both of us outside of therapy a couple of times a month, I just didn't want my T to know my H's sexual problems--like maybe my H might seem less of a man in T's eyes, or something like that. I'm not sure of my own thinking on that.... I don't think it was critical to my own individual therapy that T know those details.

I feel I should be able to talk about anyone or anything in therapy if I want. We are protected in that room. For example, I have said c**p things about people I know who are T's friends or colleagues, and T has handled it well--not getting defensive at all. (Poor T!) Sometimes, because he knows those people in a way I don't, he is able to give an alternative viewpoint. But he has never gotten angry at me for bashing people he knows. (Not that this happened often, but my headstrong male ego state took an instant disliking to someone T knows, and we did explore in depth in therapy what this ego state's problem with this guy was. As it turns out, now I actually kind of like this guy, but at the time, my male ego state wanted to deck him. Dontcha just love our "parts"? )

chaotic, I think it is great your H is seeing a T. And it sounds like he is making some gains. Good for him. (Good for you too.)

[chaotic13]

It is good that he is going and I've already felt the choke hold on me lighten dramatically. I've never met his T but they must be doing something right. Things are much better.

It is just that some comments and actions are surfacing that make me feel like...a chess piece. I know this is my own paranoia about being manipulated and I am trying to challenge those thoughts. For example the other day I was running around and had some rented movies and video games to return. I told H the errands I was running and out of the blue he said.."Hey maybe you can pick up some porn for us to watch." I couldn't help but be shocked because he has never mentioned or talked about porn to me before. I don't have issues with people who like it, but personally I find it triggering.

When H made this comment it was another one of those times where I internally felt a rush of negative energy surge through my body. IDK I couldn't help but think... Is this what you and your T are working on now; brainstorming about how to get you laid more often? On the outside I simply said, "I'm not really into watching that. If you enjoy it you're welcome to rent and watch it yourself.

IDK, his comment along with some other stuff he is doing and saying to me just gives me the feeling that I am some lab rat that H's T is trying to bait remotely. H has been asked to fill out surveys, has said his T asked him to ask me some questions, just a lot of little things. It is clear, at least to my spider senses that Hs T is trying to figure out who all the "game pieces" are at home and what things influences them. I know this is likely what Ts do, my T probably did the same thing, but if she did...she was much better at doing it under my radar. Good for me or not... I don't like to be profiled and manipulated.

I will say this, my T has never plotted with me on ways to modify/ alter my H's behavior and get him to do something to directly benefit me.We have always worked on issues from my end of things, changing my perspective, setting my boundaries and my responses to different things.If there was any behavior mod being done to get H to do/not do something it was me who generated that idea. Maybe H is using his Ts knowlege about human behavior and the info he is getting to create his own plan.

I can help envisoning two guys sharing their experiences and collaborating on stratgies for getting girls to let them "do stuff" to them. I know this is likely my mental parasite tweaking and twisting things but I'm uncomfortable.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by chaotic13

he said.."Hey maybe you can pick up some porn for us to watch." I couldn't help but be shocked because he has never mentioned or talked about porn to me before. I don't have issues with people who like it, but personally I find it triggering.

When H made this comment it was another one of those times where I internally felt a rush of negative energy surge through my body. IDK I couldn't help but think... Is this what you and your T are working on now; brainstorming about how to get you laid more often? On the outside I simply said, "I'm not really into watching that. If you enjoy it you're welcome to rent and watch it yourself.

You say you have never talked with your H about porn before. Maybe he is just totally clueless and thinks since he likes it, you would too. I think you need to have a more extensive talk with your H about this and tell him you really do not like it AT ALL and his suggesting this to you drives you further apart from him. Be very clear and unaccommodating. You do not like it and you do not like him pressing this on you. Chaotic, I know it is hard to believe, but sometimes people are just totally oblivious and although it seems he should know this, he actually may not. Educate him. After he knows, if he keeps suggesting you watch porn with him, then he has no excuse for his behavior, because you have been very clear about it. In fact, after having this talk with you, if he keeps doing it, it seems to me that would mean he wants to drive you away from him.

IDK, his comment along with some other stuff he is doing and saying to me just gives me the feeling that I am some lab rat that H's T is trying to bait remotely.

I really doubt his T would suggest to him that he invite you to watch porn with him. I think this was probably his own brilliant idea.

his T asked him to ask me some questions, just a lot of little things. It is clear, at least to my spider senses that Hs T is trying to figure out who all the "game pieces" are at home and what things influences them. I know this is likely what Ts do, my T probably did the same thing, but if she did...she was much better at doing it under my radar. Good for me or not... I don't like to be profiled and manipulated.

I think his T is trying to help him with the relationship. He can only help so much unless he understands better the other person in the relationship. There are a number of approaches to improving relationships, and if his T knows more about you, he can help your H better. The sad thing is, that your H doesn't know you well enough to answer T's questions about you without having to ask you the answers. It's like you've lived together this long, had kids, been through a lot, and he still doesn't know you. My H was kind of the that way. He was just clueless about me and totally uninterested throughout the marriage of knowing me better. Chaotic, try not to view this as manipulation. You don't have to do anything you don't want to. Let's say your H begins acting more pleasant, less demanding, less controlling, less interested in where you are going all the time, etc. (or whatever your issues with him may be). And so you begin to relax more, feel less unhappy, etc. Isn't that a good thing? Your H is learning to have a relationship better? Why view it is a negative thing, i.e. manipulation? Don't you want things to get better?

I will say this, my T has never plotted with me on ways to modify/ alter my H's behavior and get him to do something to directly benefit me.

You don't know your H's T is doing this either. In what way do you think your H's T is trying to modify YOUR behavior? Maybe he is working with your H to modify HIS behavior. If your H can change for the better, and it makes you feel better disposed towards him, is this really "manipulation"? Would you prefer that things stay the way they are, that your H not change, and that you continue feeling miserable?

Maybe H is using his Ts knowlege about human behavior and the info he is getting to create his own plan.

Chaotic, this does sound kind of paranoid. Why not start with the simplest explanation first--that your H is trying to make the relationship with you work. Maybe you can talk to your H about this and get better information on his motives. It might reassure you, or it could make you feel your paranoia is justified--but at least you would know with more certainty.

Chaotic, have you talked to your own T about your feelings about your H's changes and your fears about his "collaborating" with his T?

Chaotic, at some point, when you and your H have both done a certain amount of individual work with your individual T's, it is going to be more "efficient," if nothing else, to do some couples work. Then you two can ask each other the hard questions directly to each other, with the support of a professional. It is harder to be dishonest or evasive or change the topic when a T is there keeping you on track. And it can make the other person hear your truth because they can't just walk away. The T can keep them from interrupting you or being dismissive or whatever. Then the T can ask the other spouse, "what did she/he just say?" so they can demonstrate they have heard what their partner said. I actually have more courage now for couples work than when I really needed it, lol. Keep working with your individual T and maybe one day you will be able to do couples. Ditto for your H.

[chaotic13]

Thanks Sunrise!

I know a lot of the fear and feelings of being manipulated are paranoid thoughts. I appreciate that you were willing to say that to me. I am really trying to challenge them and look at the positive things that can come from this situation. I realize that my perception of my H's therapy as being similar to a pair of guys sitting in a bar room sharing pick-up strategies is likely seriously skewed. But like always knowing and feeling are two different things.

I haven't talked to my T about this issue yet. I did share my fear about my H's T nosing around in my therapy chart since he works out of the same practice as my T does. My T has been really good at making me feel like the privacy of my records will not be violated. At this point, I really don't want to disclose my CSA and discuss this stuff with my H or his T. I think the fact that my H's comments and actions have been mostly centered around our sex life elevates my fear that at some point I will have to explain why I will not be watching porn with him.

My H IS slowly making a turn-a-round but based on his past behavior, I am still leary of putting full trust in him. He still has days when the anger flashes and the verbal attack are unleashed. I think my H as an inner child who...does not make a nice playmate! :-)

As for the idea of a couples session, I've had a few nightmares about that. I'm not ready for that yet.

Sunrise, thanks again for helping me see a different (more balanced) perspective on what might really be happening in my H's therapy.

The hard part for me in therapy now is talking about stuff that I KNOW is just NOISE but is seriously imparing my home life. I know talking about my fear and irrational thoughts is probably good. But at the same time when I allow my T sessions to be taken up by stupid stuff I end up leaving these sessions feeling unfullfilled and resentful. I have other stuff I am experiencing and am confused/excited about and REALLY want to talk about. Its like I'm caught between what I want to talk about and what I don't want to talk about but probably need to talk about to improve my home life. Sometimes I think not being able to talk was better than now wanting to purge everything and having to choose what is most important. Gilda Radner had it right when she said..."Its always something!"

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by chaotic13

At this point, I really don't want to disclose my CSA and discuss this stuff with my H or his T. I think the fact that my H's comments and actions have been mostly centered around our sex life elevates my fear that at some point I will have to explain why I will not be watching porn with him.

You will never see his T, so you will have no occasion to tell him about any CSA. As for your H, if you don't want to watch porn with him, you don't have to justify it. You certainly don't need to tell him about CSA in order to convince him you don't want to see porn. If he asks you why you don't like to watch porn, just say, "it does nothing for me", or "it doesn't turn me on," or "it's degrading to women", or whatever you may believe about it. There is no need to get into personal stuff. You don't like to watch it--end of story. If need be, give him a scholarly article on the topic of women and porn.

As for the idea of a couples session, I've had a few nightmares about that. I'm not ready for that yet.

Yeah, it's scary. No need to stress yourself out and think about it now. There may come a time when you are ready. But there may not, and that's OK too. I had huge anxiety anytime my T even mentioned ANY couple he had worked with during one of our sessions. I would immediately get freaked out, thinking, does he want me to do couples therapy with him? I an NEVER doing that! Eventually I did though, when I was more ready. It wasn't easy, and in retrospect, I wish we had done it many many years ago (I had asked my H many years earlier and he had declined), before the relationship was unsalvageable. I was such a wimp that I needed my T to be there when I told my H I wanted a divorce. I needed that support. And once we were both in the room with T, he was just so skilled at working with us, and we could both see that. It was a relief to turn things over to a professional.

The hard part for me in therapy now is talking about stuff that I KNOW is just NOISE but is seriously imparing my home life. I know talking about my fear and irrational thoughts is probably good. But at the same time when I allow my T sessions to be taken up by stupid stuff I end up leaving these sessions feeling unfullfilled and resentful. I have other stuff I am experiencing and am confused/excited about and REALLY want to talk about.

It sounds like you have a big backlog of things to deal with and are ready to really make progress now. I think at these times it can be really helpful to increase the frequency of therapy to allow oneself to move more quickly. Are you still going to therapy once every two weeks? Could you go weekly until you've dealt with a lot of the issues in your backlog? Anything that is seriously impairing your home life is more than just noise and is important to bring to therapy. These things are not "stupid stuff."

[chaotic13]

Thanks again Sunrise. I know this noise needs to be addressed. What the noise is say IS STUPID, but its affect on me and my relationship is not. My resistance to openly communicate and share who I am with my H is a serious problem. I think I want to focus on the other stuff because its a easier to talk about, its positive, and I want to explore it. On the other hand talking about the mental noise leads me back to the darker aspects of me, makes me feel bad, leads back to negative things, and it depresses me. When I go here I feel like crap for days.

My intellectual self knows where I need to go, I just don't want to do it. I HATE the negativity, I feel a crash coming on.

[MissCharlotte]

Hi Chaotic,

Hope the crash landing is soft. I was just thinking that your H's T is asking questions about the most important person in your H's life--you! If he knows what kind of childhood you had it will give him/her insight into your relationship. Neither your H nor his T have to know any details that you don't wish to share. I remember early in therapy when T said to me that in marriage we act out our earliest childhood -- ????

So this is why your H's T was asking some questions--I think simply to gain insight into your H.

My H came to a few sessions early on in therapy and that was all. But, in fact, he's coming with me later this week for a session--we'll see how THAT goes. YIKES

[chaotic13]

Miss C thanks. I know that his T was likely just trying to assess the situation at home. The is especially true since the only reason H choose to go in the first place was because we had a big fight and I told him I had had it. H had gone through some of my person items without bothering to ask me, then attacked me a magazine clipping he didn't understand. So, H's T knew from the start he was there because of a serious conflict with me. I KNOW my thoughts about being exposed, manipulated, ganged up on, and influenced into doing things I don't or shouldn't do...at all from the past. Its my parasite talking and creating fear and resistance.

Even though I know this and have done a fairly good job of flipping my thoughts that initial flair of anger and flash of negativity surfaces and temporarily unbalances me. I want these thoughts just all together gone. Hopefully when I go today I'll at least touch on this with my T. Like I mentioned before I have some other stuff that is much more positive that I want to explore and expand on, so its a hard choice to choose where to dig today. This morning I'm flipping between in the mud or in the pristine river.

I cannot imagine having a joint session at this point with H. Good luck this week with your joint session.

BTW do you do joint sessions just with your T? My T said a long time ago that if I ever wanted a joint session that we would do it with both T present. IDK if that makes me more or less comfortable. I know I would NOT want to do it in my Ts office.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by chaotic13

[....] I have some other stuff that is much more positive that I want to explore and expand on, so its a hard choice to choose where to dig today. This morning I'm flipping between in the mud or in the pristine river.

((((((((((((((((c13))))))))))))))))
you are very brave, and you're working hard. I wonder whether you might want to schedule some extra time with T - extend to 90 minutes, or even ask for an extra session? it might help you to deal with things .

[chaotic13]

A 90-minute session would be great. Unfortunately not really possible. I can...as sunrise suggested ask for another appointment next week instead of my usual 2 week appointment. I do enjoy the extra session when I have one, but I alway also deal with a twinge of guilt when I do that. When I look honestly at my life right now...things are really going well. Its the age-old issue of want vs need.

At this point H and the negative stuff should be my focus. My excitement and the good stuff is really extra stuff. Maybe I can find my own way to get what I want.

[chaotic13]

By the looks of what I just wrote I guess today I am guilty of "...indulging in feelings that I don't have enough and the proverty of spirit which refuses to acknowledge what is daily give me."(G.Norris)

I need to take some time to change my attitude today.

[SpottedOwl]

(((chaotic)))

I think you are being WAY too hard on yourself.

At this point H and the negative stuff should be my focus. My excitement and the good stuff is really extra stuff. Maybe I can find my own way to get what I want.

'Should' is a word of judgement. Maybe it would be a good idea to let T know that the issues with H and negative feelings are impacting you, but why discount the desire to talk of the positive things?

Why are YOU denying yourself what you want? A connected session with T, talking about positive developments IS therapeutic, and is nothing to be ashamed of. If you were talking about wanting to go on a drinking binge instead of talking with T, ok I would be concerned. But to want to share positive things with T is not at all an area to beat yourself up over.

I personally seem to alternate topics with T. Sometimes I just need a session that is all about supporting the positive changes inside of me. I always tell T I am embarrassed to share these things, but I am slowly realizing that re-enforcing the positive aspects of myself is just as important to my growth as weeding out the patterns that do not serve me.

Often times after those positive-focused sessions I find I have new strength inside, and I'm able to deal with the challenging aspects of life with more ease. Building up who you are inside IS valuable.

Go for the extra session, give yourself the gift of support. Talk to T about your conflicting desires of feeling like you 'should' only talk about the negative stuff and a yet there is a desire inside to explore your positive growth.

Be forgiving of yourself. It is not wrong or bad or even dangerous to desire support for positive growth. In fact, not letting H distract your own work with T, could be a great step.

[chaotic13]

Spotted Owl I must have been in my session as you were posting this reply...I must have heard you anyway 'cause I DID IT !!! I talked about the exciting stuff at the beginning and then stuff the negative stuff in there at the end. It must have been one of those quantum sessions because I got all the essential stuff out in 60 minutes. I even talked about something previously unmentionable and she did a quick eye thing with me right before I left. How about them apples?

[SpottedOwl]

YAY!!!

What an amazing session...and how great to know that you can talk about everything! Another beautiful connected moment, saying that ALL of you deserves time.

[MissCharlotte]

BTW do you do joint sessions just with your T?

Well, since mine is the only T I suppose he's it!~ This session is for me and H and T to put our heads together, for my wellbeing. I had another depression crash last week (but feeling better now) and I think I scared T. He asked if he could invite H to a session so we could help him understand how I feel when this happens. Of course, now that I'm feeling better I feel like an idiot--sort of a lab rat or test module or something. I wish I could erase last week, and take back the things I said to T.

On another note, I am thinking you did an awesome job in session. Way to go!

[chaotic13]

Originally Posted by MissCharlotte

This session is for me and H and T to put our heads together, for my wellbeing.

I can see how this could be upsetting but helpful at the same time. I sometimes feel like now it is ME who is making H walk on eggshells. Since I spend a long time tip-toeing around him trying to avoid setting off angry outbursts, I know first hand what it is like to be on edge and fearful of setting someone else off. If I am now putting my H through this...its wrong. I realize that BOTH parties need to have enough information to make the relationship health for ALL including the kids.

All I would say Miss C is that you and your H aren't just putting your heads together for your well-being. As a couple you well-being will like benefit HIS well-being also. Don't make the mistake in thinking he is doing stuff just for you.

I'm feeling better I feel like an idiot--sort of a lab rat or test module or something. I wish I could erase last week, and take back the things I said to T.

I hate these feelings too. But then again, when you reach a point where you realize that your reaction to something was distorted/skewed/ off-base whatever...its really a good thing. Maybe we we feel this way we should be celebrating a return to more health thought patterns and just focus our efforts on staying in this mental state longer.

Miss C I'm glad you're feeling better. Let's both see how long we can stay here, OK.