T hunt (in more than one way)

Pachy--Sannah just posted about wanting to get to know your inner world. That made me wonder if you've ever tried IFS--Internal Family Systems therapy. My T uses it, as you probably know. She doesn't judge any part of me. She just says she wants us both to be curious about the parts and get to know them. She uses the phrase about getting to know our "inner world"--the parts that make up our personality. Anything you say would be okay with her. IFS therapy is gentle and calming. The T isolates one part, any part of you that needs/wants attention, and has you put aside the critical parts. My T doesn't believe in diagnoses, either.
I am sorry that you're having such a hard time, Pachy. I always appreciate you comments, threads, and posts.

Yeah, I have never met a group of people before who just "get it" the way most here do.

Yeah, I have developed some coping strategies over time, just observing what is happening, what works, what doesn't. But it's quite hard, because what works seems to go right against what seems like the correct thing to do, which is panic, or try to force someone to pay attention, or the like!

That's because when you say them, your T does not react with "WHAT DID YOU SAY?" "YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS!" "DO YOU NEED TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL?"

Some will respond that way, or along those lines.

I know! Isn't that an eeeek?

No. The only place I have ever heard of it is here on Psychotherapy. I have no idea what it really is.

It's always something I have to think about. This sounds, however, like a judgement of "good or bad". Sounds like what therapists used to be supposed to think about borderline personality disorder, that "those" people "are" impossible -- rather than admitting that the professionals have a lot of trouble dealing with them using the same techniques that they are used to using. So when I encounter something like this, it frightens me, because I can see it being used to cover up the fears of the one who makes the judgement, not admitting that's what's happening, and confusing the whole lot, and driving me into more panic.

Even if this is not the intent, I do not see people making an effort to be clear, and distinguish what they mean from how it could be interpreted. Just as an example, using the word "impossible" to describe patients. I have a book whose title is Therapy with "Impossible" Patients -- so the people who wrote it recognized that that term has been used by some "professionals" -- and that it claims to describe a "reality" but in fact does not.

What if it is found to be true that I fit into the category of someone with "certain personality disorders that find critic with therapists, they spend their life finding whats wrong and not whats helpful to avoid becoming vunrable enought and accepting perhaps someone else may know something we don't."? Then what? Does this mean it is OK to consign me to outer darkness, to exile, to the leper colony? That is how it is used sometimes. It is what frightens me.

Has this kind of thing been used against me in the past? Yes.

OK, BC, thanks (if this gets to you). Sucks at transference does not sound good; I think I have an unwanted effect on people sometimes along those lines. I may check it out.

I looked up IFS on Wikipedia (to get a short overview). It sounds like it would fit into anyone's good understanding of what happens with people, and is similar to the effective parts (!) of any therapy.

There is one sentence on Wikipedia that got to me (as the same thing always does):

"IFS explicitly recognizes the spiritual nature of the Self, allowing the model to be helpful in spiritual development as well as psychological healing."

I simply do not understand what the distinction is supposed to be between "spiritual" and "psychological". Unless it means a belief in God. Seems to me that is what is implied.

You forget, that it is you who are doing the consigning. If you want outer darkness, keep doing it the way you've been doing it; otherwise, you have to try something else because if no one can get "in" to be with you, then you have to come out. It doesn't matter what dichotomy you use, it's still a dichotomy and only has an either/or way of being worked with.

I had that problem, wouldn't let anyone in, didn't talk and, when I did, didn't make sense, mostly because I was stuck inside my own head and couldn't figure out how to get out. I solved my particular problem by making one rule; "no fetal position". I did not allow myself to curl up when hurt or scared in fact or mentally; my "job" as I saw it was to keep the emotional "shipping lanes" open between me and my T, I was an ice breaker or mine sweep. . . come hell or high water!

Figure out your #1 problem and outlaw it. It will show up no matter what therapist you use and you'll be able to work on it with anyone, anywhere. Wrestle with it like Jacob wrestled with the Angel and, (I hope) there will be a blessing for you at the end.

pachy, in your posts where you described what you are looking for in therapy it makes me think of client-centered/rogerian therapy. also, it looks a lot like what eskie said she's had and i believe i have as well and i'm also here in california. a client-centered t is very non-directive and doesn't say very much, is very empathetic and basically lets you talk and talk. it did nada for me but i do know it is helpful for others.

as for IFS, i was also thinking this might possibly be something for you to try as it is a specific and different approach and one that i think might resonate for you. this website has some good info but it is had to navigate. (also, you need to enable java in your preferences). here is a a good pdf of the intro to the site owner's book. i tend to agree with you that references to spiritual things can be pretty much the same as psychological in many instances in these types of discussions. so, i wouldn't let it put you off trying IFS since it is really psychological rather than spiritual (where prayer or meditation or some other spiritual practice would be happening or discussion of one's spiritual beliefs).

IDK why but this struck me in a terribly sad way...(((Pachy)))

pachy, i havent been following this thread enough to say anything useful (its going too fast for me to keep up) but i wanted to send you lots and lots of love. i'm on your side and am prepared to sit with you wherever you end up or decide .

i also think you're being remarkably brave by continuing this thread. i havent seen so much pachy-thought and self disclosure in all the time ive been here on PC. i think it's wonderful, and also an honour for us to be a part of .

Pegasus may be onto something...What about starting with group therapy, and not individual therapy? You do utilize PC quite well, and it is almost like group therapy anyways.

Only you know what's best, though.

Pachy, I hope it is ok to chime in late.

Often times on PC, I may read a thread, try it on for size(see if it fits in "my" world), and if so, wear it for a while (through my own personal experiences). Sounds quirky.

Here is what I "wore" from your thread...

My second T, I saw for 1 1/2 years. She was a good T, with many, many years of experience. She is also a Clinical Director. One day, I went to see her in "crisis" mode. I had been eating at a restaurant alone when my old T walked in with his wife. I knew I had two choices....to stay and endure being that close to ex-T(and his wife) who I had deep feelings for and who I felt had rejected, abandoned, betrayed, etc...me when he terminated or I could leave.It was too painful to stay and I chose to leave. My anxiety level was really high! When I tried to discuss this with her she said I was experiencing psychotic transference. I had never called him, driven by his house, given him a gift in therapy or out. NOTHING! I was angry. I felt she was wrong. She later had a conversation with him, where I was discussed. She shared part of the conversation with me. I didn't feel she could be trusted any longer, and terminated with her. I asked my G- T, my M-T, and my new I- T ( months after we began)about her comments, all thought her assessment was wrong.

On Monday, my kids and I had left my office and were driving down the road when a car pulled out from a private retail drive and slammed on the brakes to avoid hitting me. My panicked oldest child, sitting in the front seat, says" Mom, that lady almost hit us!" I look up and it is ex-T's wife. Was it intentional? No, however I instantly thought had the situation been reversed, based on my 2nd T's opinion, it would have been perceived as intentional by me. So frustrating.

I hope you find a therapist that understands.

I don't have immediate plans to do anything. I am "sitting" thinking what to do. It may be right that it is not the thing to do right now to enter therapy again. Thanks for the reminder.

Oh, Perna baby, I'll make it up to you! I really really really will!



Really.

(You too, Melba. Heck, I'll even make it up to SAWE.)

even me.
Well, this is familiar ground, I must say.

Maybe tweaking tailfeathers this time...

patchy, I guess what I have a problem with is that there are people that are working really hard here with therapists and thread after thread about how useless all therapists are just pisses me off..yeah thats my issue I know, but it takes courage to be vunrable and not a lot of courage to sit and find fault constantly...sorry if this offends you, but I feel more supportive toward those that are doing it rather than talking about it.

I guess I was not showing any vulnerability in the thread, eh?

I don't have a particular ax to grind in this case; I'm finished therapy, "successfully" nah, nah, nah, nah, nah! and, yes, you are showing vulnerability in just having started (and stayed with) the thread. You're a formidable foe and can give as good as you get but, is that who you want to be all the time?

Many years ago (14-15) on a forum like this there was a woman whose posts inevitably set me off each time; I considered myself much smarter than she, had no trouble cutting her to ribbons "politely", etc. But one day, I had an awful thought; "what if she is right and you are wrong?" and I started trying to see things the way she did. It was just a "what if" (I didn't really believe she was "right" and I was "wrong") but it helped me a great deal with trying to learn to see another's point of view, to not be stuck with just my own.

Maybe it is who(m?) I have had to be, for a very long time. Or felt I had to be. Can people see underneath that for the reasons it exists, for the vulnerability that it reveals, if they look? Or is the revelation of vulnerability, the fact that it is partly hidden, too much? It means I am not perfect, and thus may not be safe to rely upon...

pach, i've finally had a chance to read through all 10 pages of this thread . i really wish i could help out by saying something useful, but i'm also worried it's going to be yet another thing that you feel is trying to push or pull or shape you in some way that you find hard to resist, and therefore need to put a lot of effort into resisting. i don't want to put you in that position...

and yet... (you didn't think i could really master self control, did you? )...

you posted earlier about your "ideal" sort of session - where it goes on for hours etc. i can't remember the specifics of it, and im too tired to go back and quote it properly now. so i'll just comment on it instead, without making any suggestions directly for you. this way it can be just a gentle "reflect and let go" type of comment, and you can do with it whatever you like.

someone recently started talking to me about meditation, going to formal classes for it etc. usually it is the sort of thing i'd dismiss outright, but because it was someone i was a bit involved with (heh, 'that boy') i didnt dismiss it outright. truth is, i meditate by myself every now and again, i'm just wary of going to a class where i'd feel exposed about that sort of thing. but i did look it up, just to see what stuff was around. and i found a particular type of meditiation - mindfulness or zazen meditation - that sounds remarkably similar to the style of therapy you described earlier. just that you don't have someone outside guiding you, it's something you do yourself. ive always done something similar myself, but reading it written out helped clarify what exactly i do, and what about it i found helpful. it's also given me some ideas on where i'd like to take it. e.g., there is a group that is quite close to me that does a session for 3hrs every friday night. they have a teacher who you can check in with, to discuss things that come up, or you can just go and do it by yourself. it's kind of about finding your own path, finding your own 'core'.

now, i havent gone to the classes, mainly because i'm scared about being vulnerable in a group and i find this stuff to be too intensely personal to even want to sit with others while i do the work myself. and also because it's within the buddhist tradition, and i'm resistant to wanting to add religion/spirituality into the package. but i have been practicing that particular form of meditation by myself for a bit now, and i do think it has helped me pull through the past few weeks. i'm still in a fump place, but at least i'm not dead, right (we shall see in the future if this is a good outcome or not )? but, for the moment, it's what keeps me going on. pdoc and austin-t aren't the right sort of help i need right now. i became disillusioned with the whole process when i needed them and neither of them were around. so it's back to just deli doing her deli thing. and this is the curious little path i'm currently exploring. even if it turns out to not work, at least it's something i've consciously chosen to have a look at, and it's something i only need myself for.

i find a great deal of comfort in only having to rely on myself. it's isolating, but comforting and safe.

Deli - with great affection - and remember this is coming from Mrs Avoidance, one who calls herself sittingatwatersedge because of a lifetime of avoidance -
self-therapy is isolating, and comforting, and safe in a sense (the safety of distance) - but it may not be safe in the sense of finding the right path.

Events are deemed "traumatic" when the person is powerless to deflect or escape them. The events come from outside; you could say that no one suffers trauma alone.
Because of that, it's not possible for someone to heal him/herself of traulma alone. I find this in Herman, in Chu, in Walker, in numberless authors who have a lot of experience in healing trauma.

The idea of healing myself is attractive but I fear it's futile. What is it that St John of the Cross said - "A blind man who falls will not be able to get up again, if he is alone; or, if he does, he will take the wrong road."
I've only got so much time left; I fear taking that wrong road.

Pachy,

It sounds like you're in turmoil right now. I'm sorry you're hurting. I can imagine how awful you must feel right now. I can hear you saying that you need to have a t that is intelligent and well-qualified enough that you can put trust in them to help you. I'm just not sure you can be certain of this from reading therpist descriptions on a Web site. I think it takes sitting down with them and observing over a period of time.

What I'm wondering about, though, that seems problematic, is your statement that you can't leave a therapist that may not be right for you. That doing so triggers memories of your interactions with mom. Is this why you need to be certain you have found the right one before you even begin? If so, i can see why you'd be frustrated because, just as you've said, most Web site descriptions of therapy are rather vague.

I'm not sure what i can say, except that i care about you and hope you arrive at some way of finding a type of therapy that will fit your particular needs, and not just follow a general plan and hope for the best. I can see you as having high standards for the person you entrust your care to, and there's nothing wrong with that. I just don't think a therapist's short Web site description of their work will provide you with enough information to know whether they would be a good fit for you.

I know you've had alot of bad experiences, both as a child, and as an adult with therapists. I hear you saying you're fed up, disappointed, and feeling rather hopeless about it all. But try to enterain the thought that maybe, just maybe, you have not found the right match yet.

By the way, my t does IFS therapy, and there is no religious aspect to it that i know of, unless you are religious and choose to bring that to the work. What i have found they mean by the term "spiritual" is more along the lines of recognizing your own scared, inner gifts or value. I'm not sure i'm explaining it right! But it doesn't involve prayer or the like. At least not in my therapy. So, if IFS looks to be something that might interest you, it's a possible option.