Crossing the line in therapy....

T should know that he did something wrong - code of ethics isnt something to be taken lightly!!! Of course he didn't do it to hurt you, but his offer did have that consequence and this is something he would have been well aware of because of his training.

Your feelings that he did something wrong are completely valid, mixed.

As for given up an opportunity - T isn't the only driven and successful person out there. If he is a great role model, then use him to help you find opportunities elsewhere. He can be of immense benefit to you as a client... as a colleague the dynamics are different and you may find he's not really the role model you were seeking at all (not because he is bad, but because you focus on different things and this simply may not be a virtue that you see often in a working relationship vs therapy).

Mixedupemotions, your T DID "do something wrong"! One of the reasons against dual relaionships is to avoid creating the sort of feelings you are having now. Your T might have made you his offer with the best of intentions, but he still behaved unethically.

You say he is a great role model for you because he is driven and successful. You can follow that example without going into business with him.

mixed, he did do something wrong. what he's doing is unethical but that doesn't make him some horrible person. he cares about you but he's made a mistake.

it's not. even if his intentions are good. are you having a hard time seeing him as someone who is generally a caring person but one who makes a mistake now and then? sometimes, if we see things in terms of all or nothing it throws us for a loop when something happens to upset our image of the person. he's human and made a mistake but it can be rectified if he owns up to it and reestablishes proper boundaries.

he needs to be helping you take steps to get involved in something better rather than take those steps for you. the latter isn't help--it's enabling.

are you afraid that if you set a boundary and say "no i don't want to work with you" that he will reject/abandon you? it can be hard for some of us to say no to others.

you aren't. you're being triggered by stuff from your past where others have crossed your boundaries bigtime. and you are rightfully anxious about what could happen in the future if you went down this path.

no. you're giving up an opportunity to get into an unethical relationship with your T that would probably not end well for you at all.

this is good. let him be a great role model and teach you these skills in therapy.

mixed, this is your gut telling you to avoid this dual relationship because you know it could lead to trouble. why borrow trouble? don't you have enough trouble already?

(((((MUE))))) Soooooo so so so so sorry this is happening. I agree 100% with everything bloom said. I'm glad you sent the email to T, though, already giving him a clue how you're feeling. My hope is that he will recognize immediately that this was a bad move on his part and move to rectify the situation. Let us know when he replies, okay?

Thanks for the support, everyone. You have no idea how much it means to me to have a place where I can share these things and get genuine feedback - especially knowing that it comes from a place of caring.



Part me wishes and hopes that T and I can work through this in a way that still allows this outside business relationship to work. That has to be an unhealthy way to feel....

I just wish none of this had happened. Or that I just simply didn't feel this way. That I could see T as T in the office...and then see him in a business relationship outside of the office. But I know it's just not that easy.

Or, if the business relationship is something really fruitful...then terminating the T relationship....But even then, I don't know how I could see T as not my T....all the things he knows about me...the feelings I have towards him and the relationship we have...how much more work I have to do in therapy...finding another T and building that relationship....

Everything would change.

i also want to add that it will likely take some time to get back to a place of full trust and that is NOT a reflection of your "blowing it out of proportion," its normal. your strong reaction and ambivalence signal to me that you have a trauma history related to issues of trust and abuse....i would hope that you do not pressure yourself to immediately return to the ease of relationship youve had up to this point. its your therapist's job right now to re-establish safety and WAIT for you to re-acclimate.

Thanks, Dr. M.....I know T and I have to work through this somehow. I just don't want to be the one sharing my feelings about it, not right now. I'm too at the moment....

I'd like to better understand why my T did what he did. What was his purpose? Was this for my benefit or his? How would he envision this working for us? What impact does he believe this would have in our client/T relationship and is it worth the risk?

...and indeed, I do have a very long history of trauma surrounding trust and abuse. T knows this...big time. Which helps me wonder what he was thinking in regards to this when he originally suggested these things.

I really feel that I'm going to have to write a more detailed email to T. This is just eating away at me...and I know I won't be able to say these things face to face....Ugh. I don't even know where to begin.

This sux.

MUE, maybe you could use some of the things you said in this thread? Sort of copy and paste them and do some editing and send that? It's a good, honest place to begin..

It's so not fair that you have to do this difficult thing.

i think its worth it to write down your feelings and questions. if you can bring yourself to do it, it would be good to read it to your therapist. if not. hand it to him and let him read it. either way, get it out there for discussion....the only way past this is through it. *hugs*

Are you against sending it by email? Your post came off that way, and I'm curious to know if that's the case and why that might be...

I don't know if I have the strength to talk to T about all this right now....Maybe by the time my session rolls around later this week. But for now, it's like and and and more ....

I would much rather hide from it all....but I know T needs to know what I'm feeling. I am much more comfortable writing it all out. It helps me process things so that I can word it just right and see if it matches what I'm really feeling. And then, to give it to T to read....ACK ....I don't know if I could sit there and watch him read it. I would be SOO FREAKING OUT....

I would much rather send it to him by email and then run under a blanket and hide....forever.

Depending on what ethical guidelines he follows (which organization's), if you and he agreed you wanted to do this, you might have to wait a while. Some guidelines require that before the second relationship begins, the therapy relationship is terminated and a period of 1 year, or 3 yrs, etc. must pass. (Depends on which set of guidelines.) Some guidelines don't have the waiting period, they just require the relationships not be simultaneous. Other guidelines allow the dual simultaneous relationship under special circumstances, including very firmly that the client not be harmed by the dual situation. But from all you have written, it does sound like this is causing harm to you--at the very least, feelings of anxiety and being overwhelmed. Plus your T should never put you in the position of having to choose which relationship you want (if it were possible to do just one at a time, but sequentially). That situation of having to choose would be very harmful to a client--painful, excruciating, etc. If your T does try to put you in the position of choosing, please don't allow it.

Yes.

well, hiding forever is likely out of the question No, im not opposed to your sending it in an email...i was just saying that if you think you would be able to write it down and share it with him in session that would be something REALLY hard for you, but probably really beneficial. my main concern is that you let your therapist know the emotional turmoil you are experiencing...however you need to make that happen is fine as long as you get an opportunity to give your feelings a voice (or a font!) *hugs*

There could be so many things going on with you. Asking for your expertise, in person, could be stirring up your desire to not have things revealed about you that you aren't ready to reveal, or that feel they are being somewhat forced (by way of a T's position) out of you. Feeling so suddenly outed, exposed, and extremely vulnerable could be awfully triggering.

You have more to talk about concerning this with T. He needs the opportunity to clarify, to know how you are feeling, to reconsider, to hear you say "No, this doesn't sound like something I want to do. I have a boundary that feels like it's been crossed and it doesn't feel good at all. I feel frightened and panicky about all this."
Or something along those lines.

Please don't try to figure this all out on your own. It is about both of you, about your relationship and your therapy and it's the two of you who can get this sorted out, as I have all the faith in the world that you will. It's only uncomfortable for now.

Dear Mixedup,

Take a deep breath in as well as out. Be honest with yourself: Why do I feel so horrible? Have I done anything terrible, reprehensible, immoral, disgusting, or embarrassing?

Am I trying to please my T? Why do I feel a need to get my T's approval? Why do I feel so anxious when all I did was tell my T the truth - that I don't feel comfortable being a patient as well as a consultant?

You prepared some documentation and gave it to your T.
After giving it some thought, you became extremely uncomfortable with the knowledge that the therapist/patient relationship was morphing into something different. After much thought and consultation with your peers, you changed your mind and you advised your T of your feelings.

I applaud the way that you stood up for yourself and told your T the truth. I hope that you will stop beating yourself up and give yourself the credit you deserve!

As uncomfortable as this may feel right now, you have been presented with an opportunity to grow. I can't think of a more important skill than knowing your boundaries.
Hugs, Laurie

How are you feeling today? When is your session? I know you will find the courage to share the feelings you've been posting about, with your T. I hope it's soon so you don't have to be in this agony all week. Once you get it out in the open with him, I think you'll feel better.

Thanks, Rainbow, for checking in...

I am not doing well at all. Not at all. I am still in full blown panic mode, and my anxiety is through the roof. I saw a friend yesterday, and she's a medic. She took one look at me and was very concerned. Took my blood pressure, and it was 158/120....and I'm on BP meds....She said I was a stroke waiting to happen...

This is eating away at me. And now I'm more fearful than ever to talk to T....all these feelings are consuming me, and I am totally freaking out.

He didn't respond to my one email....and so I just sent him another one basically telling him that I was in full blown panic mode over his suggestion to work with him on projects outside of therapy. I told him I needed to know his motive behind doing that....and wouldn't it surely have an impact on the client/therapist relationship. And that I'm scared - blood running cold fear....and need him to respond.

This is the worst I've felt in a long time...

I'm not sure knowing his motive behind his asking is good. Allow it that it was in the most neutral position, and discuss how this has affected you instead. While emails are not legally bindable, it's probably best for the T not to put anything in writing. So much can be misunderstood in writing anyway, so a face to face is best.

Don't panic. You're still in control, even moreso now that you have thought about this. T will either respond professionally, or not. If not, then you know you probably won't trust T again, but you're still safe, and need to take what help you have received and find another T. If so, then the new boundary is set and you're safe and good to go.

Thanks....T responded....but unfortunately, I don't have any time to post about it here....I'm still in panic mode, but he said some very reassuring things....I will post more later tonight.

(((((((((MUE)))))))))

You have gotten a lot of responses and none are saying it is a good idea so that speakes volumes. The first T I went to ended up being inappropriate with me and I ended therapy which was not good for me. T are people too and they do things that are not always best for us so we have to be aware of that possibility. I am like you too and I read a book called Boundaries which helped me. Good Luck with your decision.

MUE, looking forward to hearing more about what T said. I'm sorry this has caused such panic. I hope your T will make the right choices to help you, and will own up to his own stuff in the process.

Thanks, everyone, so so so much!

My T responded to my email saying that his reasons are simple. He values my talents, and if he had to create a company, he would want 50 people just like me to work with him in it. By asking me to be a part of the project, he hoped to spark my own sense of worth. He said I have a tremendous gift for the business world that he wants me to see. He said he hoped by offering me a venue to begin utilizing my talents, he envisioned me generating momentum to do something of importance to me. He said that what he asked me to do is something he could have done, so I shouldn't feel any pressure whatsoever. He said he would not be at any disadvantage if I didn't want to lend my talents, would be privileged to have my help but not hurt if I didn't want to offer it.

He went on to say that in gestalt therapy, they tend to be more creative and worry less about what ought to be a professional boundary. He would never have any concern about me saying no and trusts that I will learn to take good care of myself and ultimately differentiate what is in my best interest.

I responded to his email mostly pointing out how I'm scared that our relationship would change....

He responded saying that is completely understandable and likely our relationships would change. He said we could go slow, put this off for future consideration or any number of options that don't produce such panic. He said he's confident that talking about it all will help make the exploration valuable as opposed to detrimental. Doing nothing different is alright also. He is interested in me actualizing my potential.

* * *

So, there you have it...Feedback?

MUE, how are YOU feeling now that your T has responded? Just wanted to offer my support.

I have mixed reactions to what your T said. It's commendable that he thinks so highly of you. That part is great! But he seems to be shirking his responsibility for your panic and negative reactions to his suggestion. Or, didn't you tell him what you posted?

Do you do gestalt therapy with him all of the time? Is that why he said:

That bothers me a little. He doesn't seem to have considered the effect his suggestion would have you. Are you going to discuss it more in your session? Do you feel better now? I hope so! I also hope you don't mind my giving you my honest opinion. I don't think you'd want otherwise.