[zooropa]

I went to group this morning. It's at my Ts office, and it's for people who have completed the regular DBT skills training group. It's more of a process group, and it just started up again last month after not meeting for about 6mos or so.

So, today it was me, groupT, and one other person. This other woman, M, is someone I met during the skills training group about 18 mos ago. We became really close and for about a year we visited a lot and talked on the phone pretty much every day.

Then, about 6 mos ago, she just cut off all communication with me. It was confusing and frustrating and most of all, hurtful. I missed her a lot, especially at first.

Today was the first time I've seen or talked to her, and OMG you guys. It was so awkward and horrible.

We started out with a mindfulness exercise that lasted about 5 minutes. By the time that was over I was ready to leave, and I told the T that. But I stayed and we spent the next 90 minutes talking about what happened between M and I.

It was pretty awful, nobody likes to hear someone's thought process in decided to stop being their friend. She pretty much said it was because I shared too much of my history with her and it was "too graphic".

What really hurts about that is that she kept asking, and as we became closer I trusted her. I told her details I have only ever told my T and one other person. And M doesn't have a history of abuse at all, so it's not like she got triggered. It was just too "distasteful" for her.

UGH UGH UGH UGH UGH

I have struggled with this so much in my relationship with my T. I felt guilty at first for telling T those details, because I didn't want her to have to think about that. It is really REALLY hard right now to not feel like I am damaged and dirty and disgusting.

[jexa]

zoo, I can't believe this. This says stuff about M though, not YOU. This says that M is a person who judges people for really awful reasons, reasons that are things that are outside of their control. It's just as bad as saying, "I don't want to be your friend because you're black" or "I don't want to be your friend because you're gay." Those are things that are outside of that person's control, just like you couldn't control the fact that this terrible thing happened to you! M is a person who has interpersonal problems bigtime. Who would want a friend like that? Clearly she was seeking details, then couldn't handle the truth. This is HER problem -- maybe think about it in a different way -- say someone got a really scary surgery that involved something scary and graphic, like hmm like an amputation or something like that. And this was a friend of yours and you started asking for more details and you found that you were very disturbed by the details of this person's surgery. Would this change your opinion of the person? Would you judge the person for telling you these details? Would you stop being this person's friend because they told you these details? What would it say about you if you DID decide to stop being this person's friend?

You know?

((((zoo)))) your T is different, too. She WANTS you to say these things because she wants to help you heal. Telling T details is NEVER a bad thing. Never never never.

[googley]

I agree with Jexa. In asking for the details, she was saying that she was accepting of what you were going to tell her. It is not your fault that she was not accepting. That is her problem, not yours. At the same time I know that it is hard to loose friendships. It is hard when someone you thought you could trust turns out to not understand. And because of this ends the friendship.

[WikidPissah]

awww....zoo! That's freakin awful! What a b___ this M is...to judge you like that! I really want to just kick her butt. You aren't dirty or disgusting!! You aren't!!! You reached out and trusted, which is good and healthy....and it didn't work out. She screwed it up, not you. She is wrong.

[ECHOES]

I hope you also got a chance to discuss the horrible way she dealt with this.

YOU didn't say too much.
SHE couldn't deal with it. Dropping you like a hot potato was okay?

[zooropa]

I didn't say much...I mean, at first I did, when I said my emotion urge was to leave. I talked about the fact that I've had a stressful and emotional week, and I'm already emotionally vulnerable, and I couldn't deal with this weird dynamic between M and I.

I talked about my experience of how the relationship ended, and a little bit about what I wanted to get out of today's conversation in group.

But once she started talking, she kept going until the time was up. She started out saying that there was nothing going on and that she didn't know what I wanted to talk about. She sure had a lot to say, though.

Group-T did check in with me a couple of times, as I sat there with my hands shaking and trying not to cry. When I left I sat in my car for a few minutes, trying to get back into the moment and to not be totally triggered by her talking about my assault in that environment and in those terms: graphic, upsetting, unsettling, horrible...those are just a few of the words that I remember her using.

How did she think that was supposed to make me feel? How did she think it felt to have those things happen to me, when even hearing about it is too much for HER?

[WePow]

(((((((Zoo)))))) It sounds like she has some very deep problems. It is almost as if she is trying to avoid feeling guilty about being a voyeur in your situation. I hate to say it, but I don't think she was listening to you back then to help you out. I think she was "rubber necking" and she had to terminate the relationship because she knew she was guilty of doing this and felt it... but was in denial about it.

I am very sorry that you had this experience in this way. You did nothing wrong. But I think deep down you know that.

[sunrise]

zoo, that experience just sounds awful! Will you continue with this group? Would you be able to feel safe with M there, who rejected you so abruptly before? I hope you can talk to your own T about is and find out if there are options for other groups. I don't think it sounds very therapeutic to be with that woman anymore. JMO.

[zooropa]

I *think* I'll continue with this group. I hope it won't be just me and her again. I will definitely talk to my T about it in the meantime. If I go to group next time and find I'm not able to put this aside and benefit from the group, then I guess I'll quit going. That just feels like yet another thing the SA has cost me.

[sunrise]

There are other groups, zoo. I don't see that SA has cost you the group. Having a friendship with a person who turned out to be a bad egg is not something to blame yourself for. M is who she is. What I see is that SA conditions us to accept being in abusive situations, and thinking they are OK. Your sitting in this group with M there, "putting this aside", sounds very reminiscent, to me, of sitting still and taking abuse, not standing up for oneself, not doing what is healthy. I think sometimes the healthy thing to do is to refuse to engage with a person anymore. M had her chance with you, she blew it and treated you badly. I don't see a reason for you to do any sort of activity with her. I hope you can be strong, and not set this aside and put up with her hurtful presence. That is just my take on this, zoo--perhaps you are more forgiving towards M. But you do not have to take this. I'm trying to picture telling my own T something like the situation you've described. I think if I told him I had chosen not to be with this woman anymore--in group or elsewhere--he would high five me.

I am so sorry. That sounds awful.

we dont post here but couldnt help but want to say she treated you very very badly and we are very sorry-you did not deserve that ♥♥♥♥

[darkrunner]

Oh, Zooropa, I feel for you so much.
DO NOT let that 'person' make you feel bad about yourself.

I am so mad at her!!! How dare she say those things! And after claiming to be your 'friend' and wanting more details! That is despicable.



Big hugs.

[rainbow8]

Zoo: I agree that M's behavior is disgusting, not YOU. Didn't group T try to get her to stop abusing you, because that's what if seems like she was doing.

[Kiya]

i know what it is like to keep trying to build that trust (T, others...) and for them to have such an inapropriate response is really horrifying. Like everyone is saying, M is the one who messed up. M needed to say something to the effect of "I'm really, truly sorry this happened to you. I am. And I am also sorry, but I am not (ok, safe, wanting, able) to hear more. Thank you for having trusted me to this point, and hopefully our relationship can take on a new aspect" then see how that sits with you both, take time with it, etc.
Sad thing is very few are that skilled in relationships - and those of us who do know may not be that skilled when it comes to saying it (points at self).
In the end, what i want you to hear is YOU ARE GOOD, CLEAN, OK, ABLE TO HAVE LOVE, AND WORTHY TO HAVE LOVE/ BE LISTENED TO. Nothing changes that. Nothing.
(((((((((((((Zoo))))))))))))))

Oh, WOW, zoo. I am so so so so so so sorry

From the outside, it's so obvious that M is the person who has a problem...but I can imagine how you must feel. Telling T the worst parts of what happened to me was the scariest thing i've ever done...because those are the things that make me feel dirtiest, most unworthy, most like I want to just crawl out of my own skin. Having T respond with compassion was HUGE. And having T tell me "when I look at you, that is NOT what I see" was so healing. I am *not* the dirty things that happened to me. I am me.

YOU are not what happened to you. You are zoo, you are loved and good and healing and full of light. That your friend can't see that says way way way more about your friend than about you. In fact, it doesn't say ANYTHING about you. She is in the wrong. YOU are okay.

Ugh. I really feel for you. And I am so so so sorry

[SenatorPenguin8081]

Originally Posted by zooropa

I went to group this morning. It's at my Ts office, and it's for people who have completed the regular DBT skills training group. It's more of a process group, and it just started up again last month after not meeting for about 6mos or so.

We started out with a mindfulness exercise that lasted about 5 minutes. By the time that was over I was ready to leave, and I told the T that. But I stayed and we spent the next 90 minutes talking about what happened between M and I.

It was pretty awful, nobody likes to hear someone's thought process in decided to stop being their friend. She pretty much said it was because I shared too much of my history with her and it was "too graphic".
What really hurts about that is that she kept asking, and as we became closer I trusted her. I told her details I have only ever told my T and one other person.

Mmhhm.... and here I see:

And M doesn't have a history of abuse at all, so it's not like she got triggered. It was just too "distasteful" for her.

How do you know she doesn't have a history of abuse? For someone who doesn't *have* that history, she sure responded in a way that makes one have doubts about that. She might not be where you are at in terms of sharing it though. Either way, her reaction was rather cold for someone with such a "normal" childhood/life experiences (although probably not intentionally inflicting pain on you in any way).

I have struggled with this so much in my relationship with my T. I felt guilty at first for telling T those details, because I didn't want her to have to think about that. It is really REALLY hard right now to not feel like I am damaged and dirty and disgusting.

T's hear really super horrific things almost every day. The longer they are in practice, the more they also hear over time. This is a part of their reason for existence. I understand the shame and the re-traumatization and the fear involved in sharing such details with someone. I have only recently been able to discuss certain things with my T and certain people. Don't worry because when it comes to your T, they aren't going to *break* from the painful memories and experiences you share with them.

You are NOT dirty or disgusting. That's a lie the traumatic experience tries to push on people who deal with that sort of abuse. It's not your fault that your fellow group therapy person doesn't know how to handle such information. Probably better you found out sooner rather than later that your "friend" was going to abandon you because it would have been really bad if you reached out to her when you are in a bad place and THEN she abandoned you. Personally I think her behavior was abhorrent.

What did your T say about this specifically, if anything?

[SenatorPenguin8081]

Originally Posted by treehouse

Oh, WOW, zoo. I am so so so so so so sorry

From the outside, it's so obvious that M is the person who has a problem...but I can imagine how you must feel. Telling T the worst parts of what happened to me was the scariest thing i've ever done...because those are the things that make me feel dirtiest, most unworthy, most like I want to just crawl out of my own skin. Having T respond with compassion was HUGE. And having T tell me "when I look at you, that is NOT what I see" was so healing. I am *not* the dirty things that happened to me. I am me.

YOU are not what happened to you. You are zoo, you are loved and good and healing and full of light. That your friend can't see that says way way way more about your friend than about you. In fact, it doesn't say ANYTHING about you. She is in the wrong. YOU are okay.

Ugh. I really feel for you. And I am so so so sorry

Right on.

[zooropa]

I know she doesn't have a history of abuse because she told me so, many times. she even said it again during group yesterday.

i havent gotten to talk to my T about it yet, but I will tomorrow. especially since i got 3 texts from M tonight.

she feels so much better after group, shes so glad I stayed because it helped her so much, blah blah blah. It makes me angry and...violated? Like what I feel doesnt matter, my experience doesnt matter, its just a convenient vehicle for her to work out her issues.

#uck that noise.

[jexa]

UGH UGH UGH UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I AM SO MAD ZOO. SO MAD. Those texts from M. UGH. Who the hell is SHE to have GAINED something from that AWFUL session where she TOTALLY invalidated and mistreated you!!?? She should be APOLOGIZING. She should be apologizing a LOT!!!!

I'm seriously fuming.. something about you getting those texts from her just makes me sick. That #ucking #itch!

How are you coping with this, zoo? Are you doing alright? I'm sure T will be mad about it, too. This sucks so hardcore. I'm sure she will have some reassuring things to say.

[zooropa]

I can't even...I wish I could copy and paste the whole text conversation here. It continued for a little bit until I realized how upset I was getting. Then I got up and went to the computer and blocked her number. It does feel like the damage was already done.

I'm so glad I see T tomorrow. I'm going to have her read the texts. I'm hoping she will have spoken to group-T about what happened on Sat. I'm just hanging on to the fact that I can tell it all to T tomorrow and she can help me sort it all out.

Jexa, thank you so much for validating me. I really felt like she should be apologizing, too. It helps me so much to know right this moment that her reality isn't the only reality. In her mind she did a wonderful thing and wanted to be friends again after yesterdays session. I, on the other hand, have spent the last 30 hours feeling violated and exposed, not to mention rejected. I am strong enough to not want friends like that. I am SUCH a loyal friend, I will hold on to people way, way past what would be a healthy time to let go.

Anyway, yeah. I'm upset. I'm trying to keep my head on and breathe.

[zooropa]

heres the conversation. i'm not proud of everything I said but somebody tell me i'm not crazy. ugh.

(the only changes I made were to take out the Ts names)

her:
I really enjoyed seeing u yesterday. i left with a completely differant understanding of where my emotional mind has been stuck in regards to our situation and the role I have played in it. Old tapes, along with old fears have once again has left me alone. I'm glad u stayed at the group yesterday it sure helped me. Running is getting me no where except stuck in the same place.
-----
me:
I'm glad you felt better. I certainly left feeling worse and am only glad I see t tomorrow So I can talk about it with her. Very confusing and upsetting.
------
One thing has stuck in my mind since yesterday. Why, if It was so traumatizing, why did You keep asking and asking? I cannot understand that.
------
Actually, if we have learned nothing else through this it is that this isn't effective communication. Call me if you want to but if you can't stand to speak to me then don't text either, OK?.
------
I liked you. A lot. I cared about you and I am a very loyal friend. You threw that away because of YOU and your issues. Not because of me and mine. Somehow yesterday you managed to blame it all on me and groupT and I sat there and let you get away with it. You violated me again and I wish to god I had had the sense to defend myself or at least walk away. The fact that I didn't is on me, but I don't have to sit by and let it keep happening. **** it.

her again:
------Wow, i don't think we were in the same room. i answered groupt's and she did a great job leading us through the conversation, or that's how i saw it. if u had something to say, you're right it's on u that you didn't. u heard want u wanted to hear, but could of gotten your anger out in a more appropriate way. i understand u want this to be all about u, but it really isn't. U are being overly judgementle and defensive. I won't except your anger. Whatever else is going on for u this last week you r just dumping all your anger on me. I'm sorry u feel the way you do. i can't read your mind even sitting 3 feet from me, and i can only assume if groupt was reading your emails tonight she too would be surprised. Being stuck in an emotional mind only adds to your stress level. I was hoping yesterday's conversation could of cracked the door open to us talking, but i see that's not the reality after these hate filled emails. i hope you can talk out whatever is upsetting u tomorrow with t, because I'm not the main issue.
------
me:

Yeah. Maybe we never were in the same room. I'm so glad you feel better though. That's what really matters.

It's not ****ing email its ****ing texts, first of all. Secondly, the fact that you still refuse to speak to me told me all I needed to know tonight.

Don't worry, t and groupt will both be reading this exchange.

[SenatorPenguin8081]

Originally Posted by zooropa

I know she doesn't have a history of abuse because she told me so, many times. she even said it again during group yesterday.

I know a couple of people who lied about it FOR YEARS, in an attempt to protect themselves emotionally. The world is full of silent people who suffered through such abuse, who NEVER speak of it. Even so, even without a history of abuse, her behavior was abhorrent.

i havent gotten to talk to my T about it yet, but I will tomorrow. especially since i got 3 texts from M tonight.

Is M playing with your emotions here or what? What does she want from you now, to pretend like it's okay or something? I hope you aren't drawn into that sort of thing because history indicates that she will likely push away again, hurting you all over again.

she feels so much better after group, shes so glad I stayed because it helped her so much, blah blah blah. It makes me angry and...violated? Like what I feel doesnt matter, my experience doesnt matter, its just a convenient vehicle for her to work out her issues.
#uck that noise.

You were violated. Emotionally and in a real way.
It doesn't matter how she feels. Helping her is the therapist's job, not yours. Especially at your expense. That is not what friends do. Sorta narcissistic sounding isn't she? She violated your trust and then wanted you to forget all about it. Nope... don't shed any more tears over that girl; she has done enough already and I'd politely and firmly tell her to stop contacting you, that she needs to work out her issues with her T.

What have you told her in response to her texts, if anything?

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by zooropa

In her mind she did a wonderful thing and wanted to be friends again after yesterdays session.

Wow, I didn't realize she wanted to be friends again!

I thought that exchange was awful. I am glad you blocked her. Texting such important stuff is not a good way to communicate. It seems like she should have said all that stuff face to face if it was so important to her. I think you should ditch the group (and her). JMO. With people like that, I think the best response is no response and refuse to think even one more minute about them. Your life and time are too valuable to waste on thinking about her or being upset about her.

Originally Posted by zooropa

I am SUCH a loyal friend, I will hold on to people way, way past what would be a healthy time to let go.

That is what I meant about sitting still and putting up with it--just like being abused. I am glad you want to be healthy and let her go!!

((((((((((((((((zoo))))))))))))))))

wow, i am so sorry for what you had to endure with this woman. she should have taken some responsibility for asking you so much about your experiences and then blowing you off. maybe as you talk to your T/group T you can have a chance to stand up to her in person and ask her how exactly it is okay that she asked you so much about your experience and then rejected you. i think she needs to be in the hot seat on that one even though i'm sure it probably wasn't intentional on her part. you absolutely are not dirty or bad or guilty for what you went through. that is on your abuser.