[chicken_wing]

Hi all. I am new here but I have been lurking for the past week.

I have been seeing a therapist for almost 1.5 years now. After about six months, I became very attached to her, wanting her to be my mother, and feeling that I love her. She has been so supportive and comforting of me and I know that a lot of the changes I have accomplished has been due to her encouragement. But the feelings I have for her are painful to me because I know she is only my therapist and will never love me back in any way. I have told her frequently about how it is a struggle to see her and how much it hurts not to have my love reciprocated. I try to quit therapy at least once a month I think. Every time she tells me to work through our relationship and that the process will heal me. Despite my complaints of my pain and asking her for help on a few occasions, she has never given me guidance on how to cope or deal with my feelings of unreciprocated love and rejection. My life is a story of feeling unloved and unwanted. Seeing her makes everything so much more painful. Now, I am at the point where I am angry that she hasn't helped me in this aspect. Am I wrong to expect her to give me guidance on coping with my feelings? Our relationship is otherwise a very good one, and I have never been so close to anyone. I should also say that I see her twice a week usually but the last month and a half we have had sessions three times a week, and my feelings since Spring of this year. I have complained to her about m If it helps any, she has told me before that she thinks I have BPD. I would greatly appreciate your insights. The pain is so great; it's very hard to see her as it is a constant reminder of rejection and loneliness.

By the way, I have not ever had any romantic feelings for her.

[rainbow8]

I'm not sure how helpful I can be because I've gone through the same kinds of feelings with 5 Ts. So I totally understand how painful therapy is for you.

Why are you seeing her 3 times a week now? I wonder if that's contributing to your difficulties. It gives you no time to process anything on your own.

Loving one's T is more common than not, but I don't know of any great secret as to how to deal with the feelings other than to accept them, and to discuss them with your T, which it seems you are already doing.

You say your T is supportive and giving but will not love you back in any way. Is it possible that you can reframe what she is giving you as a kind of love? I think Ts do give us love; in fact, it's unconditional love that we may have missed growing up. Your T thinks that going through that process will heal you. I wonder if it will help if you just accept that she IS giving you love, and that it's okay for you to accept it and not fight it.

I've had to learn to accept my Ts "love" for me as something that will help me to learn to love myself and not need her so much. I started a thread on that very topic, as it is something I struggle with so much, like you.

I too, was diagnosed years ago with BPD and I think those of us with that diagnosis struggle more than others with wanting our T to meet our needs and not being able to cope with the one-sidedness of therapy. It's very difficult to sort out the feelings for our T and to come to terms with what T is giving us, vs realizing it is T's job and she doesn't really love us.

I don't know what the answer is except to keep discussing it with your T. Do you have others in your life who could meet some of your needs so T won't be your whole life? Do you work? The more you connect with people IRL, the more you can get some of those needs met by others.

But still, I totally get that you are angry and frustrated with the way therapy is. I hope hugs are okay.

[PreacherHeckler]

I think it depends on what you mean when you say she isn't helping you deal with the feelings. Do you mean she isn't willing to talk about it with you? Or do you mean her answers aren't making you feel any better when you talk about it with her? If she sidesteps the issue and doesn't really like to talk about it with you, then I would be concerned about her ability to help you deal with it. But if she is willing to talk about it as much as you need to, and the problem is that you still don't feel better, that's different. Maybe you just need to continue talking about it for quite awhile until you do start to feel better. Or maybe you don't think she's helping you because you don't like her answers -- for example if you still want her to return your love in ways that she can't, even though on some level you know that there are limits in this relationship, you might not feel she's helping you deal with it because you're not getting what you want from her. So I would try to clarify what you think you need from her in order to help you deal with the feelings, and talk to her about it as much as you need to.

[Omers]

I am still in too much pain from a similar situation to offer any unbiased support. However, 3 sessions a week concerns me. I have never worked with a T that would see me more than twice a week and even that had to be short term. I have worked with 8+ T's with all kinds of training and none of them would ever think of seeing a client 3 times a week.

[PreacherHeckler]

Yeah, 3 sessions a week tends to increase the intensity of those feelings and leaves little time between sessions to really process anything. (By the way, I have DID with some prominent BPD traits.) Maybe try cutting back to twice a week again?

[bpd2]

I really feel for you. What you describe is familiar and horrible. It really does have to be worked through, though, and I promise that the relationship on the other side is worth it.

May I ask the professional level of your therapist? I ask because it's troubling that she would say you "might have BPD." I'd want to find out for sure, because the therapy should adapt to the diagnosis. For example, many, many people with BPD also do DBT (Dialectical Behavioral Therapy)--in fact, many therapists won't see borderlines who aren't in DBT or who have at least had it one time through. If you haven't had a formal eval from at least a psychologist, then it's probably time to ask for one...

The extreme attachment and the fear that the pain of it will eat you up sure sounds like my borderline experience...I go through phases of the "this is so painful I can't stand to be here--as horrible as it would be to never see you again, I can barely stand to come to a session." Recently, I had a really awful bout of them. Repeatedly, we work on creating social ties with others in my RL, and we work on creating boundaries for myself as well as recognizing the boundaries of others--for instance, I would never/should never tell anyone else all the things I tell my therapist; and if I DID tell a person those things and it was not a loving, committed relationship, I would be violating my own boundaries and heading for trouble...and I should wonder why that other person wanted to know so much about me if they didn't love me. Make sense? Lots of

[chicken_wing]

Thank you everyone for your responses, for your support and your insight.

I began seeing her three times a week because it was difficult for me to go the long span over the weekend from the second session on Wednesday. She thought that seeing her a third time would be more supportive, and it has been. The weekends aren’t terrible like they used to be.

My therapist is a LCSW. I haven’t been diagnosed, but it has been mentioned to my psychiatrist (when I was seeing her). The psychiatrist didn’t think it was necessary to put a label on me, so she said. Both recommended DBT, and I started doing DBT with a psychologist after refusing to do group therapy. I have since stopped seeing that psychologist because we argued more than anything else, and I will begin doing DBT work with my current therapist.

My therapist talks about my feelings as much as I want to. She doesn’t bring it up. The talks, I guess, aren’t satisfactory to me. She has suggested ways to cope, like making friendships. Making friendships has been a personal goal but she’s never indicated it could help me love her less. She just says things like therapy makes relationships intense and I’m not used to feeling unconditional regard etc. She recognizes my struggle and then says the whole bit about “working through our relationship” as being a “major part of our work together” and that it will be “restorative and healing.” When I push her on what it means to work together, she just says to ‘work through,’ and she says it means to continue to see her, despite the pain. That answer is very unsatisfactory.

I am a graduate student. I feel very isolated and most of my friendships at school are superficial. I also recently lost 3 close friendships and separated from my husband in the past year. I don’t know anyone outside of school.

I at times feel that my therapist loves me and she says she feels a fondness and affection for me. I tell myself that it should only matter how I feel and now what she actually feels, but I can’t help but feel the rejection. I want to say that I would feel better at least if I knew how to either reduce my feelings for her or deal better with the limitations of our relationship. It would be nice if my therapist did instruct me on how to get my needs met outside and how to form boundaries and respect others’.

[bpd2]

OK........this may start a firestorm, BUT you need a diagnosis. Without one, the med therapy cannot be clear, and the talk therapy cannot be clear either. A diagnosis is not the same as a label. It names a condition, not you. Once the condition(s) is identified, it can be more efficiently addressed with a clear focus. AND you can take that dx to any mental health professional and they will be better able to help you with less wasted time. If you are borderline, in my humble opinion, you need a psychologist, not a counselor.

One of the things a psychologist would do for you, I believe, is exactly what you ask for in your last line above: instruct you on getting your needs met in the real world and on learning to see and respect boundaries. In my experience, a social worker knows what systems you need in place, and is excellent at helping you gather them, but is not trained in the details of how, exactly, to access those systems...as in, yep, we need friends, but HOW do we make them and keep them????

[PreacherHeckler]

Actually an LCSW is quite capable of doing therapy. It depends on the coursework emphasis in college. My daughter has her MSW but she doesn't do therapy because her concentration was in casework and not actual therapy. Theoretically she could be a therapist but she currently does not have the background she would need. But some social workers are good therapists, and not all psychologists are good clinicians even though they have an advanced degree.

[chicken_wing]

Bpd2, when my therapist first suggested I had BPD, i knew that she was unqualified to diagnose me, but the more I learned about the condition, I was convinced I was the archetype. So, I guess I don't think it's necessary either to have a definitive diagnosis, but perhaps if I do move to another therapist, I should seriously consider getting one.

I am ignorant as to the major differences between the multiple types of therapist. So a LCSW (maybe not the one I see) couldn't provide me instruction?

I have often felt my therapist was inadequate because I have desperately wanted someone more directive who guided my therapy, made sure we discussed everything well, forced me to talk whenever I preferred to sit quietly, etc. My therapist is good at making me feel warm and vindicated. And though I know I probably should find someone else, beyond being soooo attached to her, I do not want to restart the process of forming a connection to someone new and retelling all of the horrors of my past. It took me about 5 months not to hate my current therapist and about 9 months before I told her anything that truly haunted me.

Oh, and I no longer take medication because I believe it's not for me.

[rainbow8]

Yes, maybe a firestorm, bpd! My current T is a social worker and she is better than the psychiatrist and psy d's I saw! She doesn't believe in diagnoses. The others diagnosed BPD but all I did was go over and over the same stuff with them. I tried DBT online and I just couldn't get through it. My most recent T who had a PhD in psychology told me to "get on with my life" but she was sorry she couldn't help me with my attachment problem. My social worker T is well aware of my pattern and is teaching me how to have compassion for my parts and get them to work together so my Self can lead them in harmony. She is the only T I have ever been totally honest with about all of my feelings.

So, as has been said before in other threads, it's not the degree; it's the therapeutic relationship that heals the most. As long as the T is qualified and not a quack, of course!

[velcro003]

Originally Posted by chicken_wing

Bpd2, when my therapist first suggested I had BPD, i knew that she was unqualified to diagnose me, but the more I learned about the condition, I was convinced I was the archetype. So, I guess I don't think it's necessary either to have a definitive diagnosis, but perhaps if I do move to another therapist, I should seriously consider getting one.

I am ignorant as to the major differences between the multiple types of therapist. So a LCSW (maybe not the one I see) couldn't provide me instruction?

I have often felt my therapist was inadequate because I have desperately wanted someone more directive who guided my therapy, made sure we discussed everything well, forced me to talk whenever I preferred to sit quietly, etc. My therapist is good at making me feel warm and vindicated. And though I know I probably should find someone else, beyond being soooo attached to her, I do not want to restart the process of forming a connection to someone new and retelling all of the horrors of my past. It took me about 5 months not to hate my current therapist and about 9 months before I told her anything that truly haunted me.

Oh, and I no longer take medication because I believe it's not for me.

No, a LCSW therapist can and does provide therapy. My mom's T is a social worker, and my mom loves him.

Also about the guided/directive part of therapy--your T's orientation might not be geared towards that. Mine is psychodynamic/leans towards psychoanalytic. She studied under someone who studied under Jung--so that is her methodology. Therefore I am the one who leads the sessions, and there is LOTS of silences. It has been very stressfull and frustrating at times, but that is how she works. She has said if I wanted a more behavioral therapist that she would recommend one--they are more directive in how they provide therapy. I don't think one is necc. better than another, just how you think you would respond to. I may be able to talk more if I was asked directly questions, but in this way it allows me to really get at my issues, since I bring (or don't) them up. Hang in there, and just keep trying ot talk to your T about this stuff. I know its MUCH harder done than said.

[chicken_wing]

so then are you guys saying (perhaps no bpd2) that i should continue seeing her even though seeing her brings me back to the dark place i have desperately tried to avoid for many years?

[jexa]

Originally Posted by chicken_wing

so then are you guys saying (perhaps no bpd2) that i should continue seeing her even though seeing her brings me back to the dark place i have desperately tried to avoid for many years?

Absolutely not, I think NO one would want you to be in a dark place. If therapy is bringing you to that place, that is a problem. I think people are saying, there's no need to knock LCSWs since many are quite skilled. But there are also many unskilled practitioners out there. Your experience is the judge -- therapy should improve your daily life, not make things worse.

I have to say, there are a couple problematic things. You are a person in need of skills for your daily life, so you can make friends and deal with your overwhelming feelings. It seems this T is not teaching you anything, she's mostly just listening to you struggle with your feelings, not giving much guidance at all except "you should make friends." Is that right?

If that's right, then I see that your therapy is not therapy, it's counseling. Counseling is fine for people who just need someone to talk to so they can sort through things. But it sounds like you are in need of more intensive, directive therapy, like DBT, ACT, etc. I myself definitely found NO benefit in counseling -- if I am just given total free reign of the session, with nothing but endless positive support from my T, I will get nowhere! Some people say "All you need is love" but I think that's horsesh##. It sounds like although you are very attached to this T, she doesn't know how to help you. You've brought your concerns to her and she hasn't helped you move in the right direction. You've been seeing her for a long time and you are stagnant.

If you feel you have BPD, DBT is a great therapy that helps people with BPD a GREAT deal in daily life skills. I know you went to the one DBT psychologist and you guys just fought, but maybe you just didn't click with that T. You said you'd be starting DBT with the new T soon. Why haven't you? It concerns me that your T didn't start using DBT right away if she thinks you have BPD?

It's usually best to tell a T that you've thought this over and are feeling this way. Sometimes there is a solution to the problem. It's sooo difficult to start over with a new T. It's nice to work things out with the one you have. So I would start there. Really lay it on the line, try to put all your cards on the table and see if she can come up with a solution that makes sense to YOU.

If you walk out of that talk still feeling like she doesn't get it, I would look for a new T, pronto. This is YOUR health we're talking about -- you deserve a T that will help you make progress!

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by chicken_wing

I am a graduate student. I feel very isolated and most of my friendships at school are superficial. I also recently lost 3 close friendships and separated from my husband in the past year. I don’t know anyone outside of school.

This sounds like a really hard time for you, a time when you need support from your T. Do you feel supported when you go to therapy?

Originally Posted by chicken_wing

It would be nice if my therapist did instruct me on how to get my needs met outside and how to form boundaries

Maybe your T doesn't know you are sitting their wishing for instruction on these topics. I think sometimes we can be goal-directed in therapy to good result. If making friends is your highest priority, for example, can you tell your T and then work in a concerted way on that? When we have a ton of stuff going on in our lives, though, and it sounds like you may be there, what with your recent separation from your H and loss of friends, it can be hard to work in a goal-directed way. We just try our best to get by, and our T stands by us in this difficult time. Later, when you are past the hump, then you can work on a specific objective.

I've also found some books to be good on topics you mentioned, not as a replacement for therapy, but as an information source.

For learning how to set boundaries:
Where to Draw the Line: How to Set Healthy Boundaries Every Day. by Anne Katherine

For learning how to make friends, with lots of good examples:
Personal Village: How to have people in your life by choice, not chance. by Marvin Thomas

[pachyderm]

You have been given a bunch of ideas and evaluations! Now mine is quite favorable towards your present therapist, from what you have said. I like what rainbow said:

"You say your T is supportive and giving but will not love you back in any way. Is it possible that you can reframe what she is giving you as a kind of love?"

Being in so much pain, though, is not really that helpful in therapy, I think. Maybe you can work through that with your T if you tell her there is so much distress; maybe she needs to try to talk through it more with you, to explain more what she thinks is happening.

[pegasus]

Originally Posted by chicken_wing

I have been seeing a therapist for almost 1.5 years now.

The pain is so great; it's very hard to see her as it is a constant reminder of rejection and loneliness.

I have put the word reminder in bold because I think this is what is going on. Your T sounds good to me and is waiting for you to figure it out yourself. Your T is not the one rejecting you, she is supporting you in a way that you have not experienced before. The reminder is from the past. Having been with your T now for 1.5 years, I would say you are at a stage that many of us reach and then come to understand the special relationship that we have with the therapist. Not your Mother, not your friend but someone who loves you unconditionally nonetheless. I know it is painful but the attachment is a healthy one though it feels scary.

No need to terminate, you are doing good work together.

[Fartraveler]

She has been so supportive and comforting of me and I know that a lot of the changes I have accomplished has been due to her encouragement. But the feelings I have for her are painful to me because I know she is only my therapist and will never love me back in any way. I have told her frequently about how it is a struggle to see her and how much it hurts not to have my love reciprocated. I try to quit therapy at least once a month I think.

I went through this also, and what helped me a lot was reading about BPD. That made me realize that my intense attachment, my discomfort with the attachment, my anger at her, my desire to quit (to abandon her before she abandoned me) was basically part of the BPD pathology. So I did realize (eventually) that those feelings were not a reason to quit, they were a reason to stay. And when I felt like quitting, I would remember that, and then perceive that my discomfort was not due to her. It was due to me, and to an unhealthy part of me that I needed to heal.

This is not to say that all therapists are good, and that you should automatically stay with a therapist that doesn't work for you. But what you are describing sounds like feelings and dynamics that often happen in BPD therapy.

The situation you describe, and your T's behavior, raises no warning flags for me. I used to have BPD (my T, also an LCSW, also did not focus on diagnostic labels) and for me, therapy was horribly painful, and awful. And it went on for years. But it did work, and it was totally worth it, so now I am glad I stuck it out.

Take care,
-Far

[Omers]

bpd, you may have started the firestorm but I may be about to throw gas on it.

I have been thinking much the same things as what bpd has said. I am not a T and I am not BPD. I have many friends who are T's and friends who are BPD. This again does not make me an expert by any means, just someone who has seen both sides.

BPD needs to be diagnosed by a psychologist who is trained in doing evaluations.

Therapy needs to start with skills, CBT or DBT.

Seeing someone with BPD 3 times a week especially before they have done any CBT or DBT is creating dependance which is not healthy, it feels good now but will hurt more later.

I do believe that a good LCSW can do CBT and/or DBT.

This T is bringing out issues that need to be worked on and it sounds like she is both willing and able to talk with you as you move through them. That is very good. And having a relationship with this T that is safe enough for these things to emerge is also good. But it feels like she is putting the horse before the cart.
Working through the "mom" stuff is essential but it is a b* and by the sounds of things the work is begining without a "tool box" as my T called it. Yes, a T will be much better able to manage the storm. Knowing that someone can weather the storm is very healing but it does not create change outside the theraputic environment. You are not getting the valuable opportunity to practice your CBT skills. When storms come up outside of therapy without both having and having successfully used your CBT skills you are more likely to continue to rely on old patterns.
I don't think you need to fire your T but I do believe that the treatment plan needs to be re-evaluated.

[bpd2]

FOR SURE, regardless of their degrees or licensing, people who are trained to work with borderlines are the people to see--and maybe lots who aren't trained but are intuitive about the condition and the dependency issues, or who have a lot of stamina and excellent boundaries, can do the efficient work with us.

AND, I agree that the quality of the relationship is essential to the treatment.

However, I still think you need a formal diagnosis, and I find it really hard to believe you don't have one, because your insurance company does require one. So...at the very least, don't you want to know what that dx is?

Also, in some states, an insurance company will not pay for DBT led by MSWs--mine refused to pay for DBT training led by anyone less than an LCSW, and you can't BE in DBT without a personal therapist as well, and that therapist also had to be an LCSW. I really liked one of the LCSWs available to me while I was in DBT, but I elected to stay with my PsyD because of his ongoing research on borderline personality disorder because I am his patient--by the way, many, many psychologists will only take one borderline patient at a time because they require intense work (unless the psychologist is an expert in personality disorders). My t's experience and expertise with my dx is, afterall, part of what I am paying for.

Bottom line, this is a matter for you and your t, AND, I also think it is worth asking your t to get a consult on this. Pain is probably inevitable in therapy, but if the conversation consistently gets bogged down in conversation about your relationship with your therapist, then I think it's time to revisit the treatment approach. (That's the reason for the consult.)

This is a fascinating thread! I am really glad for it: it is leading me into some close thinking about my own therapy

[Fartraveler]

Just want to say that my therapy was successful even though my T dismissed the whole diagnosis idea. Nor did I ever go through a formal DBT or CBT program.

My T is very experienced in working with BPD (although I didn't realize that when I started with her) -- she worked in hospitals, has trained therapists, does a lot of supervision, and so on. So she knows what she is doing. And, in my treatment, she chose not to follow some more conventional paths.

I just want to make the point that there's more than one approach that can be successful.

There are certainly treatment approaches that are commonly recommended. But they're not the only ones that work.

-Far

[BlackCanary]

Originally Posted by chicken_wing

... But the feelings I have for her are painful to me because I know she is only my therapist and will never love me back in any way. I have told her frequently about how it is a struggle to see her and how much it hurts not to have my love reciprocated. I try to quit therapy at least once a month I think. Every time she tells me to work through our relationship and that the process will heal me. Despite my complaints of my pain and asking her for help on a few occasions, she has never given me guidance on how to cope or deal with my feelings of unreciprocated love and rejection. My life is a story of feeling unloved and unwanted. Seeing her makes everything so much more painful. Now, I am at the point where I am angry that she hasn't helped me in this aspect. Am I wrong to expect her to give me guidance on coping with my feelings? ....

I wanted to go back to your original question - should I quit this therapist who won't help me deal with my feelings for her? (is that it?)
If you have a great working relationship, then no, do not quit.

I agree with others that you can probably ask more directly for what you want to know, to learn, about handling your feelings for her.
Do you think about her often, every day?
Outside of therapy, are you mostly focused on your relationship with the T when you think about therapy?
She may want you to learn to live with the discomfort, since that's a skill. She's not rejecting you. You want something that she cannot give. BUT, you may prefer that she is more direct with you about how she feels about you?
Why don't you love me? Ex: "ChickenWing, you are right, I am never going to love you. But, know that I care about your well-being. I love my job, and I love being able to help you."
I think about you so much, and I love you so much. Ex: "CW, it's so nice that you love me. It's not the same feeling for me; you are a client who I am taking care of, and it's part of my profession to help you. Each week I spend time thinking about all of my clients, considering the work we have done and what is coming next. But I don't otherwise think of you between sessions".

In 2009 I spent a great deal of time thinking about how much I loved my exT (male). Every 4-6 wk I would consider - is this really working? Maybe I need a new T, he's not helping me deal with my transference, the idealized parent that I made of him. But in the session, we focused on my stuff, and I learned good things.
Once I started to ask myself the question "Who is it that I'd like to love in the way that I love my therapist?" then I got close to the deeper issues.
And, "Who is it in my life that I wish would treat me with the loving kindness that my therapist shows me?" and "What things are happening in this relationship with the T that I love so much, how can I have those things in other relationships?"
I do hope you and your T can get down to the practical elements of this relationship building.
We never have to ask the T to be kind to us, to treat us with respect, to listen when we are angry or sad and not respond with judgment.

[chicken_wing]

I didn’t start DBT sooner because I resisted. I tried DBT again today but I just absolutely hate it. I hate it. It’s a no-go for me, I think. Maybe when I am in a better mindset I will be less resistant to it.

My T is psychodynamic, so I guess that’s why I have control of the sessions. If I specifically ask for help on something, she does give me guidance. But maybe I want her to give me advice without asking? I mean, I won’t always know what to ask and what’s best for me.

Sunrise, thank you for the book suggestions. I will look into them.
I do think it would be helpful to learn more about BPD and understand why I act the way I do. I’m still not sure if I need an official diagnosis. My T told my insurance company I am treated for anxiety because I do unfortunately have panic attacks.
I met with my T today and she said that I am discounting the warm feelings she does have for me, that I dismissed them because it wasn’t the love that I wanted. She is always willing to talk to me. Sigh. I either don’t want to talk or listen. Or maybe I can’t trust or accept what she tells me. I am a mess. It is frustrating that she mentions my parents whenever we discuss my love for her. I don’t care what transference says; I love T for herself. I will admit that my fear of losing her may be related to the past.

We also discussed how I think of her outside the office. She thought I imagined spending time with her, socializing, etc or wondering what she is doing. I don’t do these things at all. I think about what I want to tell her or remember something she said to me during sessions. If I feel down, which is all the time, I think of her for comfort. The content of my thoughts do not cross the boundaries of our therapeutic relationship. At most, I have imagined that *I* am special to her.

I know I am pathetic, but is it so wrong to want someone you love to love you back??
I don’t know if I will end up terminating. I’d miss her so much but man the pain!

Tangentially, reading my moniker in your responses has made me realize it is such a ridiculous name!

[Omers]

Just on a practical note you may want to see how many sessions your insurance will cover. There is usually a limit per year.

[jexa]

What was she saying that made you argue, chicken_wing? What didn't you like? In my experience, a skilled therapist does DBT in a way that is not so confrontational..