[rainbow8]

The anger is because no one can be there for me the way I wish they could. My sense of Self is still weak and wants to have someone there to support her all of the time. My mother used to be there like that, and after that there were Ts. I had at least 10 years with no T, but then I was pulled back like a magnet! I attach myself to them because they seem to offer unconditional love and caring, and they validate me. My Self doesn't seem to be able to exist without someone like that.

Yes, I'm grateful for my H, my kids, my grandchildren, and my friends, but there's still a void that can't ever be filled. Age is just a number; I get older but feel the same small child inside. This whole scenario is pathetic. The anger and hurt aren't about my T on her phone anymore. That was just the trigger. The only answer is radical acceptance. Trauma is different for everyone. Mine apparently is this anguish when I don't have "that person" in my life. I'm sorry if this is depressing. My session unleashed all of this anger--again. It's not the first time. It sucks.

[trdleblue]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I get older but feel the same small child inside. This whole scenario is pathetic. The anger and hurt aren't about my T on her phone anymore. That was just the trigger. The only answer is radical acceptance. Trauma is different for everyone. Mine apparently is this anguish when I don't have "that person" in my life. I'm sorry if this is depressing. My session unleashed all of this anger--again. It's not the first time. It sucks.

As much as this is foreign to me, I don't think you should call it pathetic. Perhaps the fact that I can not fathom seeing myself as a child is pathetic? Maybe we just both need to work from where we are, and not worry about where we are along in the journey.

[Abby]

Ah yes "that perfect person" that doesn't exist no matter how hard and long the search...and yet the search continues....I often ask myself why do I search and then I wonder if that search is the hope that's kept me going through the deep, over-whelming pain of a non-existent self....even if that hope is misplaced and misguided. Obviously these feeling aren't about your therapist, or that one situation although perhaps it has been 'easier' in the past to focus on it that way as it gives a possibility of 'fixing' it....maybe "that person" is us but we're too scared to know it?!

Perhaps the radical acceptance is that it sucks? It genuinely does. It really sucks to lose someone that felt for a brief period of time like everything...even if they're still technically there in some cases!

Sometimes I wonder if our Self is ageless...I wonder if it feels non-existent and weak simply because it is sitting in the background waiting to be discovered beneath all the emotions and noise? Like the moment between breaths.

I don't know. But I am sorry that you are hurting.

[Luce]

I think you are right that radical acceptance of the fact that nobody can ever fill that void inside you is the only way through this. The neverending cycle of hope and inevitable let down is ultimately *far* more painful and exhausting than finding a way to that acceptance and then facing the emptiness inside. Without doing that you will stay on this neverending cycle *for the rest of your life*.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by Luce

I think you are right that radical acceptance of the fact that nobody can ever fill that void inside you is the only way through this. The neverending cycle of hope and inevitable let down is ultimately *far* more painful and exhausting than finding a way to that acceptance and then facing the emptiness inside. Without doing that you will stay on this neverending cycle *for the rest of your life*.

Thanks, Luce. You're always so reasonable. I mean in a positive, helpful way. Yeah, I know you're right but the emptiness is painful too. My T is trying so hard to help me, and I'm trying too. I wish I could cry in therapy. I can let out the anger but not the sadness.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by trdleblue

As much as this is foreign to me, I don't think you should call it pathetic. Perhaps the fact that I can not fathom seeing myself as a child is pathetic? Maybe we just both need to work from where we are, and not worry about where we are along in the journey.

Thank you. Those are wise words you wrote!

Originally Posted by Abby

Ah yes "that perfect person" that doesn't exist no matter how hard and long the search...and yet the search continues....I often ask myself why do I search and then I wonder if that search is the hope that's kept me going through the deep, over-whelming pain of a non-existent self....even if that hope is misplaced and misguided. Obviously these feeling aren't about your therapist, or that one situation although perhaps it has been 'easier' in the past to focus on it that way as it gives a possibility of 'fixing' it....maybe "that person" is us but we're too scared to know it?!

Perhaps the radical acceptance is that it sucks? It genuinely does. It really sucks to lose someone that felt for a brief period of time like everything...even if they're still technically there in some cases!

Sometimes I wonder if our Self is ageless...I wonder if it feels non-existent and weak simply because it is sitting in the background waiting to be discovered beneath all the emotions and noise? Like the moment between breaths.

I don't know. But I am sorry that you are hurting.

Thanks, Abby. I do think the only person who can love us the way we want is "us". My T wants my Self to love the parts who feel the way they do but it's hard. I like what you wrote about the Self feeling non-existent and weak. My T says my Self is strong and CAN lead my parts. That's IFS talk. She keeps saying she's helping me build it up. Facing this stuff hurts.

[ultramar]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

The anger is because no one can be there for me the way I wish they could. My sense of Self is still weak and wants to have someone there to support her all of the time. My mother used to be there like that, and after that there were Ts. I had at least 10 years with no T, but then I was pulled back like a magnet! I attach myself to them because they seem to offer unconditional love and caring, and they validate me. My Self doesn't seem to be able to exist without someone like that.

Yes, I'm grateful for my H, my kids, my grandchildren, and my friends, but there's still a void that can't ever be filled. Age is just a number; I get older but feel the same small child inside. This whole scenario is pathetic. The anger and hurt aren't about my T on her phone anymore. That was just the trigger. The only answer is radical acceptance. Trauma is different for everyone. Mine apparently is this anguish when I don't have "that person" in my life. I'm sorry if this is depressing. My session unleashed all of this anger--again. It's not the first time. It sucks.

This is a really brilliant insight, Rainbow. Knowing you may have hit on something may not make the pain go away, but it's a big step.

Is there any way you can address the adult part of you more in therapy? I don't know -I have a feeling that the more the child-parts of you are focused on, perhaps the more those aspects of you somehow become perpetuated. You *know* how the child parts feel, what they so desperately want. Maybe the time has come to see how you can reconcile these needs and desires with your adult self. Is there some way in IFS to 'communicate' between the child self and the adult self?

Perhaps as a child you never developed a strong sense of self because your mother provided (or overrided) your identity and did not allow you to develop in that way (of course not intentionally, she sounds like a very warm, loving woman). I just have a feeling that maybe you'll need to accept that that child part of you does not have a strong identity, that's the way it is, but the adult Rainbow can reinvent herself, can be strong, can leave the child behind (lovingly), and develop a 'good enough' sense of self so as to balance relying on your T with relying on yourself without your T's presence.

[~EnlightenMe~]

Ultramar,

but the adult Rainbow can reinvent herself, can be strong, can leave the child behind (lovingly),

I have to respectfully disagree with the bolded part you wrote. The problem with enmeshment, is that, as you said, it doesn't allow a sense of self to form. In fact, if one were to try to express an opinion with an enmeshed mother, the mother would squash anything that doesn't feel like her. It often is covert, and I also think that it isn't done in a conscious manner, but it is very damaging.

I don't know how one would lovingly leave a part of yourself, a child part, behind. The problem is, that is what has already been done. I know for myself, that this child part of mine, when triggered with abandonment fears, will stir up emotions that compels me to contact T. This part was abandoned over and over again psychologically. I think the goal is to accept the child part and to nurture it. It takes a lot of knowledge and therapy to make this happen. I have been with my T since August, and what he has done (he is a DID specialist) is changing me, I am able to tolerate more of my emotions on my own. I am starting to have hope for a life of my own. By allowing me to see him twice a week if I ask for it, it has allowed my adult part to learn about my child part, to figure out what it needs, to lean on him for a bit, and now I am going to once a week in the summer. There is a way out, it is very painful, a lot of grieving to do, but I want to be free. But I won't leave my child part behind and I won't place my adult part as a higher priority than my child part, I will use my adult part to give the child part what it needs.

Rainbow,
This grief is the work you need to do. My T is helping me figure things out, and he has strong boundaries and is flexible. He feels safe. He understands enmeshment and child parts, etc., and somehow he has been able to allow me to be attached while helping me differentiate. It isn't that he focuses on my adult part, it is more like he focuses on and accepts all of my parts. I think people are confusing accepting the child part (and what that involves) with enmeshment. Enmeshment escalates child-parts because it is a reenactment of the past, a reenactment of a sort of disavowal. Just my thoughts at the moment. I know it is painful. Sending you tons of hugs.

I had to leave a therapeutical relationship (I was terminated) in which I was painfully enmeshed and therefore, kept reenacting the past. I wasn't consciously aware that I was enmeshed, but I kept trying to tell T what I needed (some things were enmeshment related (which wasn't what I needed), and some were child part related(which was spot on with what I needed). I consider myself lucky that I have found a therapist who fully gets what I need (he was referred by xT and/or some other Therapist xT knew).

Ultramar,
Forgive me for my curiosity, but I have to ask. Do you have a child part that you have left behind/dissociated? No need to answer this question, only if you want to do so.

[ultramar]

I think the goal is to accept the child part and to nurture it.

I 100% agree with this, Antimatter.

But I think there can be a goal even beyond this one. Long term.

I was probably too absolute in saying 'leaving the child behind' because all people carry all of their lives along with them, maybe especially our childhoods.

I think a long-term goal would be to integrate the child part into the current adult and for the child to no longer be running the show -which doesn't mean she isn't still there.

Nurturing the child in us who did not receive sufficient nurturing or the right kind of nurturing in childhood, in therapy, can be very healing. I'm not saying it's not important. Unlike you (I think) Rainbow has been in therapy for decades, so she may (or may not) be at a different stage in therapy than you.

I think the ultimate goal of nurturing a patient's child parts in therapy is to help that person grow into an adult. This can take years, but it is a goal. I think most therapists would agree that some form of this is the ultimate goal. Often before this can happen, as you say, the child emotions and behaviors need to be accepted and nurtured, but it's not the end of the road, right?

[ultramar]

Originally Posted by Antimatter

Ultramar,

I have to respectfully disagree with the bolded part you wrote. The problem with enmeshment, is that, as you said, it doesn't allow a sense of self to form. In fact, if one were to try to express an opinion with an enmeshed mother, the mother would squash anything that doesn't feel like her. It often is covert, and I also think that it isn't done in a conscious manner, but it is very damaging.

I don't know how one would lovingly leave a part of yourself, a child part, behind. The problem is, that is what has already been done. I know for myself, that this child part of mine, when triggered with abandonment fears, will stir up emotions that compels me to contact T. This part was abandoned over and over again psychologically. I think the goal is to accept the child part and to nurture it. It takes a lot of knowledge and therapy to make this happen. I have been with my T since August, and what he has done (he is a DID specialist) is changing me, I am able to tolerate more of my emotions on my own. I am starting to have hope for a life of my own. By allowing me to see him twice a week if I ask for it, it has allowed my adult part to learn about my child part, to figure out what it needs, to lean on him for a bit, and now I am going to once a week in the summer. There is a way out, it is very painful, a lot of grieving to do, but I want to be free. But I won't leave my child part behind and I won't place my adult part as a higher priority than my child part, I will use my adult part to give the child part what it needs.

Rainbow,
This grief is the work you need to do. My T is helping me figure things out, and he has strong boundaries and is flexible. He feels safe. He understands enmeshment and child parts, etc., and somehow he has been able to allow me to be attached while helping me differentiate. It isn't that he focuses on my adult part, it is more like he focuses on and accepts all of my parts. I think people are confusing accepting the child part (and what that involves) with enmeshment. Enmeshment escalates child-parts because it is a reenactment of the past, a reenactment of a sort of disavowal. Just my thoughts at the moment. I know it is painful. Sending you tons of hugs.

I had to leave a therapeutical relationship (I was terminated) in which I was painfully enmeshed and therefore, kept reenacting the past. I wasn't consciously aware that I was enmeshed, but I kept trying to tell T what I needed (some things were enmeshment related (which wasn't what I needed), and some were child part related(which was spot on with what I needed). I consider myself lucky that I have found a therapist who fully gets what I need (he was referred by xT and/or some other Therapist xT knew).

Ultramar,
Forgive me for my curiosity, but I have to ask. Do you have a child part that you have left behind/dissociated? No need to answer this question, only if you want to do so.

Didn't see this last part (question) until now.

I've been trying to wrap my head around 'parts' in order to understand Rainbow's and some other posts and so have written in those terms.

But I don't personally see or experience myself that way. I don't believe I have separate child parts, dissociated or not, so I can't answer that question. Our therapies and beliefs are different and there's nothing wrong with that.

For me, personally, I would not find it helpful or healing to deal with myself as separate parts, as she thinks or feels or behaves thusly, etc. The emotions and reactions I have that one way or another stem from childhood are a part of me. And it's complicated, because since childhood (I'm 42) I have experienced a great great many things, emotionally and otherwise, so I just cannot divorce childhood from the rest of me, they're all mixed together, and all me.

I am never *purely* a child, or an adolescent, etc. In any case, my interpretations of the past, my feelings from the past, will always be affected by all the time in between, and all of the other parts of me.

Because of some things that happened in my childhood and adolescence, *I* have a hard time trusting some people, especially people in authority. Not she. I. This is how I experience it, but I understand that there are others who experience it differently and, again, nothing wrong with that.

I feel like a whole person, I want to be a whole/integrated person, and want to be treated and addressed that way. This doesn't mean, by a long shot, that I don't deal with childhood issues in therapy, only that they may be addressed in a different way than in your therapy. Neither is right or wrong.

I think the 'leave the child behind' thing upset you and I'm sorry. I've tried to explain it, but even so you may well have a very different take on it, in fact I think you do. I've been amazed by all the different kinds of therapy practiced by different people on this forum, there's an amazing diversity, people just need to do what works for them.

I was making a suggestion to Rainbow, which may or may not end up being useful or pertinent to her situation. Just sharing my thoughts.

[~EnlightenMe~]

Originally Posted by ultramar

I think the goal is to accept the child part and to nurture it.

I 100% agree with this, Antimatter.

But I think there can be a goal even beyond this one. Long term.

I was probably too absolute in saying 'leaving the child behind' because all people carry all of their lives along with them, maybe especially our childhoods.

I think a long-term goal would be to integrate the child part into the current adult and for the child to no longer be running the show -which doesn't mean she isn't still there.

Nurturing the child in us who did not receive sufficient nurturing or the right kind of nurturing in childhood, in therapy, can be very healing. I'm not saying it's not important. Unlike you (I think) Rainbow has been in therapy for decades, so she may (or may not) be at a different stage in therapy than you.

I think the ultimate goal of nurturing a patient's child parts in therapy is to help that person grow into an adult. This can take years, but it is a goal. I think most therapists would agree that some form of this is the ultimate goal. Often before this can happen, as you say, the child emotions and behaviors need to be accepted and nurtured, but it's not the end of the road, right?

I am not disagreeing with what you are saying. I think that, in my case, that I prefer not to use the terminology such as the goal is so the child isn't running the show, and that the goal is to help the person grow into an adult. I am not trying to be picky, please hear me out. These statements, to me, are shaming (I know you didn't mean them that way, truly).
I feel so much shame surrounding my child part and have felt this for so long, (and suspect others do, too)that I want to speak about it. Acceptance to me means that integration is the ultimate goal, and therapy is helping me grow to be whole. When the child's emotions and behaviors are accepted and nurtured by the self, that is integration, that is what I am talking about, so it is the end of the road so to speak.

[~EnlightenMe~]

Originally Posted by ultramar

Didn't see this last part (question) until now.

I've been trying to wrap my head around 'parts' in order to understand Rainbow's and some other posts and so have written in those terms.

But I don't personally see or experience myself that way. I don't believe I have separate child parts, dissociated or not, so I can't answer that question. Our therapies and beliefs are different and there's nothing wrong with that.

I am in total agreement. We all are on our own journey and are defining that journey in a way the we understand best.

For me, personally, I would not find it helpful or healing to deal with myself as separate parts, as she thinks or feels or behaves thusly, etc. The emotions and reactions I have that one way or another stem from childhood are a part of me. And it's complicated, because since childhood (I'm 42) I have experienced a great great many things, emotionally and otherwise, so I just cannot divorce childhood from the rest of me, they're all mixed together, and all me.

I am never *purely* a child, or an adolescent, etc. In any case, my interpretations of the past, my feelings from the past, will always be affected by all the time in between, and all of the other parts of me.

When I am triggered, I feel like I am completely a child, totally. I hear you saying that your experience is different. As you have said, all of this is ok.

Because of some things that happened in my childhood and adolescence, *I* have a hard time trusting some people, especially people in authority. Not she. I. This is how I experience it, but I understand that there are others who experience it differently and, again, nothing wrong with that.

I also say I have a hard time trusting people in authority. So, I experience myself in variable ways, and the label of child part helped me. It isn't true for everyone, and clearly it won't help everyone. I agree, there is nothing wrong with any of this.

I feel like a whole person, I want to be a whole/integrated person, and want to be treated and addressed that way. This doesn't mean, by a long shot, that I don't deal with childhood issues in therapy, only that they may be addressed in a different way than in your therapy. Neither is right or wrong.

I don't feel like a whole person at all. I wish that I could convince you that I am stating my experience, and that I am in no way telling anyone else what to think or how to feel.

I think the 'leave the child behind' thing upset you and I'm sorry. I've tried to explain it, but even so you may well have a very different take on it, in fact I think you do. I've been amazed by all the different kinds of therapy practiced by different people on this forum, there's an amazing diversity, people just need to do what works for them.

It didn't upset me, I wanted to explain why I disagreed with you on that part. I now see that you can leave the child behind since you are whole, it isn't an issue. Thank you for your response. I absolutely agree that people just need to do what works for them.

I was making a suggestion to Rainbow, which may or may not end up being useful or pertinent to her situation. Just sharing my thoughts.

I also hoped to share my experiences and what I have learned from them here hoping to help Rainbow and anybody else listening.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by ultramar

This is a really brilliant insight, Rainbow. Knowing you may have hit on something may not make the pain go away, but it's a big step. Thanks!

Is there any way you can address the adult part of you more in therapy? My T and I have been addressing the adult part for a long time. Recently I have told her that I feel she is ignoring my child parts! I don't know -I have a feeling that the more the child-parts of you are focused on, perhaps the more those aspects of you somehow become perpetuated. You *know* how the child parts feel, what they so desperately want. Maybe the time has come to see how you can reconcile these needs and desires with your adult self. Is there some way in IFS to 'communicate' between the child self and the adult self? Yes, my T has alwayls asked me "what does that part need from YOU?" She has encouraged me to visualize holding the child part or parts and telling them that I love them and that I will always be there for them.

Perhaps as a child you never developed a strong sense of self because your mother provided (or overrided) your identity and did not allow you to develop in that way (of course not intentionally, she sounds like a very warm, loving woman). I just have a feeling that maybe you'll need to accept that that child part of you does not have a strong identity, that's the way it is, but the adult Rainbow can reinvent herself, can be strong, can leave the child behind (lovingly), and develop a 'good enough' sense of self so as to balance relying on your T with relying on yourself without your T's presence.

According to IFS, the child parts are not supposed to be left behind. They are supposed to remain children, and are supposed to play like kids do! Yes, we are trying to build up my sense of Self.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by Antimatter

Ultramar,

I have to respectfully disagree with the bolded part you wrote. The problem with enmeshment, is that, as you said, it doesn't allow a sense of self to form. In fact, if one were to try to express an opinion with an enmeshed mother, the mother would squash anything that doesn't feel like her. It often is covert, and I also think that it isn't done in a conscious manner, but it is very damaging.

I don't know how one would lovingly leave a part of yourself, a child part, behind. The problem is, that is what has already been done. I know for myself, that this child part of mine, when triggered with abandonment fears, will stir up emotions that compels me to contact T. This part was abandoned over and over again psychologically. I think the goal is to accept the child part and to nurture it. It takes a lot of knowledge and therapy to make this happen. I have been with my T since August, and what he has done (he is a DID specialist) is changing me, I am able to tolerate more of my emotions on my own. I am starting to have hope for a life of my own. By allowing me to see him twice a week if I ask for it, it has allowed my adult part to learn about my child part, to figure out what it needs, to lean on him for a bit, and now I am going to once a week in the summer. There is a way out, it is very painful, a lot of grieving to do, but I want to be free. But I won't leave my child part behind and I won't place my adult part as a higher priority than my child part, I will use my adult part to give the child part what it needs.
Yes, that's exactly what my T says to do. She says our child parts are always with us. We aren't supposed to leave them behind. They are supposed to be chldren, and play, not be burdened with our "stuff".
Rainbow,
This grief is the work you need to do. My T is helping me figure things out, and he has strong boundaries and is flexible. He feels safe. He understands enmeshment and child parts, etc., and somehow he has been able to allow me to be attached while helping me differentiate. It isn't that he focuses on my adult part, it is more like he focuses on and accepts all of my parts. I think people are confusing accepting the child part (and what that involves) with enmeshment. Enmeshment escalates child-parts because it is a reenactment of the past, a reenactment of a sort of disavowal. Just my thoughts at the moment. I know it is painful. Sending you tons of hugs.
I'm glad your new T is working out for you! Thanks for your posts and the hugs. Yes, my T accepts all of my parts and has always encouraged me to accept them and to be curious about them, not judge them.
I had to leave a therapeutical relationship (I was terminated) in which I was painfully enmeshed and therefore, kept reenacting the past. I wasn't consciously aware that I was enmeshed, but I kept trying to tell T what I needed (some things were enmeshment related (which wasn't what I needed), and some were child part related(which was spot on with what I needed). I consider myself lucky that I have found a therapist who fully gets what I need (he was referred by xT and/or some other Therapist xT knew).

Ultramar,
Forgive me for my curiosity, but I have to ask. Do you have a child part that you have left behind/dissociated? No need to answer this question, only if you want to do so.

I can't get this to post. Again, thanks antimatter.

[rainbow8]

I'm having a hard time since my session. I tried explaining it to my H today. He understands somewhat. I'm feeling totally sad rather than angry now. I know I have to take care of the child parts by myself, but I have to still tell my T how I feel.

I was remembering how it felt to hold her hand. It was skin to skin contact, like mother and baby. The urge to be a baby with her came into my mind today and gave me a headache. I wanted her to be holding me and maybe breastfeeding me. I think that's why holding her hand felt so wonderful. It was a taste of what I missed. I held my H's hand but it wasn't the same. It's been a month or two since my T let me hold her hand. We still hug but it's not the same. Something deep inside was satisfied by that touching of our hands. Maybe it was simply the connection and not to do with mother and baby, but that's the image that comes to my mind.

I know it appears like I'm regressing, but I think this is the work of facing the void inside. After I thought about those baby/mother images and holding T's hand, I held my own hands together and hugged myself like she's had me do sometimes in my session. I'm grieving for what I can't have, and letting myself feel it fully. Tomorrow I have more adult things to do so will try to put these feelings away until my session. I wanted to write it out so I don't think I made up these feelings. I feel kind of yucky about those strong feelings and posting this. I never thought so much would get stirred up from seeing my T talking and laughing on her phone! I just have to get it out and then I will be okay.

[unaluna]

My t and I kinda use as a baseline, how would I do on the marshmallow test right now? The marshmallow test is a test they give kids to test if they can delay gratification, see how mature they are. I think that's not the right use of the test - it really shows if the kids parents lie to the kid or not, is my belief. The tester leaves the kid alone in the room with a marshmallow and tells the kid he can have 2 marshmallows if he waits - doesn't eat the 1 marshmallow -til the tester returns.

Rain, your reaction to the phone call was like you saw the tester burning the bag of marshmallows! I told my t, darn rite I'm eating that first marshmallow I'm given - a bird in the hand, you know! Otherwise someone's gonna tell me I must not even really want any marshmallows at all, if I could wait that long. Honestly what kind of white people design these tests??

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

The anger is because no one can be there for me the way I wish they could...The only answer is radical acceptance... My session unleashed all of this anger--again. It's not the first time. It sucks.

(((((( Rain ))))))

You know Rain, I would feel doubly angry if I was thinking like this, that no-one 'can' be there for me. Perhaps you are at a stage (actually make that several stages!) further than me in this struggle, but I wonder if you're feeling pressured into accepting some sort of status quo (the therapeutic adage that no-one 'can' fill those childhood needs once you become an adult) rather than letting yourself experience what YOU actually believe?

As in, you're supposed to see this apparent truth that no-one can fill those needs, but in actuality deep down perhaps you (as I do) believe that those needs CAN be filled and the reality is that no-one IS meeting them and therein stems a lot of anger - it does for me. I just don't believe, despite all the literature and psych education about it, that someone can't meet those needs. If I believed that, I think I'd be 90% towards acceptance and moving on. I think I'm stuck in my needs precisely because I (or some part of me perhaps, distinct from my intellectual/cognitive self) believes my needs can be met and that whoever can meet them out there is refusing to, for whatever reason, and so I turn myself inside out trying to adapt and adopt and be good enough to convince whoever it might be, to get on with it and give me what I need!

I hope this is not way off the mark, I keep up with your threads though I don't post much at the moment, and I always seem to pick up on this small element of 'shouldism' in your posts, as if you are saying or trying make yourself believe something you've been told (or accepted intellectually) is true, but that doesn't reflect your current reality. Like you're trying so hard to take in and learn and adapt to things that are ostensibly healthy and the 'correct' way to be, and all the time what you really need and want and who you really are, in any current moment, is being rejected and ignored and treated as unacceptable or having to change...

Ack this sounds like I'm being critical and I don't mean that at all, I feel so much sympathy for your struggle (especially dealing with anger) that I want to just reach out and say f*** what everyone else is saying, you just be who you are and express what you need and want and don't worry about being or doing the 'right' thing

A propos child parts - I'm always interested in that concept, having been all my life completely unable to split myself up into parts - there's always only ever been ME in here (more's the pity). So it's been interesting to read the discussion here.

Lately I've begun to understand how separating aspects of oneself out into parts can actually be very useful even on a basic level such as enabling me to gain some distance from more overwhelming and threatening aspects of my internal set up (vulnerability for one, which I associate with a stuck developmental aspect of myself...) I'm not yet at any kind of point where I can say 'she' but it is helpful for me to experience the concept of there being an aspect of me that isn't ALL of me in any given moment and can therefore be looked at and understood as something separate from the me who is contemplating it. Hm does that make any sense?

Rain I know you do IFS with your T and that it's really helpful, have you done much reading around the subject? Once I got interested in the idea of parts, I found other literature that was also helpful in explaining the concept of parts/aspects of self - ego state therapy for instance, and the books by John Rowan (though he keeps changing his mind about it). It's all very fascinating even if one doesn't experience parts as separate entities within oneself.

Anyway sorry for the looooooong post, I haven't posted properly in ages and poor you get my first mega post back .

I wanted to comment also on your struggle with anger, but I've written way too much already. Sorry .

Hope you're doing ok, hugs to you (((((((((( Rainbow )))))))))))))

Torn xxxxxxx

[unaluna]

Torn mind - you've clarified a couple of things for me. Recently t and I spent part of a session laughing over the new at&t commercials of the guy and the little kids, where he throws out a question like, which is better, less or more? Then I was like, why are we talking about this? I see now it relates back to getting our needs fulfilled. My t IS wily!! Less is more.

When I was in the hospital in september with crosseyes - they think a minor stroke - I called to cancel t, but then he said to call him and keep him informed. I didn't call anyone else. And after a while, it was like, okay, this is dumb, I'm running out of things to say to him. I realize now what he was doing. Just being there for me, being supportive. Last time I was in hospital with food poisoning or gall bladder from my mother's home, she would call me, telling me I wasn't really sick and to go back to work. Wtf?? Total denial of my reality.

Then when I was back at sessions, t said he WANTED to give me a ride home. I took a taxi, as he lives way the other side of town. Anyway, his earnestness puzzled me. It was like when he said he WANTED to get me a birthday present - yet, no gift? Now I get it! I can be pretty dense. Hopefully some part of me is hearing his messages, because I am being somewhat less destructive.

[Anne2.0]

Hi Rainbow,

I can't find the quote, but what struck me in this thread was your statement about how you realize that nobody can really be there for you in the way you want (and the grief about that).

I think there's a piece in that grief-- and grief is such a butt-kicker and I think at the center of the resolution of most neglect and abuse in childhood-- that's about building up yourself and connecting with that part of yourself that can "do it yourself", not as substitute for other people meeting your needs, but because that part of ourselves (I think a child part) needs to be developed too.

What I mean is that kids both want to be nurtured by others and they want to "do it myself." I recall some of the bittersweet moments from my son's toddlerhood, when he was so proud to be able to "do it m'self", like putting on socks, and shoes. At almost 12 now, I am more attuned to asking him if he would like help or he would like me to get X for him, because he still likes to have me do things for him that he is perfectly capable of doing, that's partly how he feels cared for, but also giving him space and not suggesting that he can't do these things by himself. He needs both his independence and his nurturance.

I don't think it's any different when we're adults. Our child parts need to be nurtured and they need to develop a sense of mastery about what they can do for themselves-- the things that bring them joy, fulfillment, peace, etc. I suppose this isn't any different from those adult parts as well.

I guess I have felt that my child part(s) are not just limited to what I would identify as "needy" of the love and attention from others, but they are also part of my drive to do the things I love and that bring me joy-- being in nature, doing artsy things, writing, hanging with my dog, etc. As I have built up this part of myself, I feel like I need *less* from other people-- not in a "screw you, I can do it myself", but just that I don't need a specific thing in a specific way. Somewhat paradoxically, I am both better at asking for what I need and I find what people offer me (when I can accept it, which isn't all the time) more satisfying.

For me, the other side of grief is developing what wasn't able to flourish as long as I was holding onto wishing it was different or feeling a deep sense of loss for what I never had. Grief has been an opportunity to look for and nourish those parts of myself that were sidelined. As I've continued to build myself up, the grief has given way to peacefulness and satisfaction.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by hankster

My t and I kinda use as a baseline, how would I do on the marshmallow test right now? The marshmallow test is a test they give kids to test if they can delay gratification, see how mature they are. I think that's not the right use of the test - it really shows if the kids parents lie to the kid or not, is my belief. The tester leaves the kid alone in the room with a marshmallow and tells the kid he can have 2 marshmallows if he waits - doesn't eat the 1 marshmallow -til the tester returns.

Rain, your reaction to the phone call was like you saw the tester burning the bag of marshmallows! I told my t, darn rite I'm eating that first marshmallow I'm given - a bird in the hand, you know! Otherwise someone's gonna tell me I must not even really want any marshmallows at all, if I could wait that long. Honestly what kind of white people design these tests??

Thanks, hankster. I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure. I saw that I'm not going to get any gratification (burning the marshmalows) but in reality, I do get a lot from my T. Just not enough to fill me up.

Originally Posted by Torn Mind

(((((( Rain ))))))

You know Rain, I would feel doubly angry if I was thinking like this, that no-one 'can' be there for me. Perhaps you are at a stage (actually make that several stages!) further than me in this struggle, but I wonder if you're feeling pressured into accepting some sort of status quo (the therapeutic adage that no-one 'can' fill those childhood needs once you become an adult) rather than letting yourself experience what YOU actually believe?

As in, you're supposed to see this apparent truth that no-one can fill those needs, but in actuality deep down perhaps you (as I do) believe that those needs CAN be filled and the reality is that no-one IS meeting them and therein stems a lot of anger - it does for me. I just don't believe, despite all the literature and psych education about it, that someone can't meet those needs. If I believed that, I think I'd be 90% towards acceptance and moving on. I think I'm stuck in my needs precisely because I (or some part of me perhaps, distinct from my intellectual/cognitive self) believes my needs can be met and that whoever can meet them out there is refusing to, for whatever reason, and so I turn myself inside out trying to adapt and adopt and be good enough to convince whoever it might be, to get on with it and give me what I need!

I hope this is not way off the mark, I keep up with your threads though I don't post much at the moment, and I always seem to pick up on this small element of 'shouldism' in your posts, as if you are saying or trying make yourself believe something you've been told (or accepted intellectually) is true, but that doesn't reflect your current reality. Like you're trying so hard to take in and learn and adapt to things that are ostensibly healthy and the 'correct' way to be, and all the time what you really need and want and who you really are, in any current moment, is being rejected and ignored and treated as unacceptable or having to change...

Ack this sounds like I'm being critical and I don't mean that at all, I feel so much sympathy for your struggle (especially dealing with anger) that I want to just reach out and say f*** what everyone else is saying, you just be who you are and express what you need and want and don't worry about being or doing the 'right' thing

A propos child parts - I'm always interested in that concept, having been all my life completely unable to split myself up into parts - there's always only ever been ME in here (more's the pity). So it's been interesting to read the discussion here.

Lately I've begun to understand how separating aspects of oneself out into parts can actually be very useful even on a basic level such as enabling me to gain some distance from more overwhelming and threatening aspects of my internal set up (vulnerability for one, which I associate with a stuck developmental aspect of myself...) I'm not yet at any kind of point where I can say 'she' but it is helpful for me to experience the concept of there being an aspect of me that isn't ALL of me in any given moment and can therefore be looked at and understood as something separate from the me who is contemplating it. Hm does that make any sense?

Rain I know you do IFS with your T and that it's really helpful, have you done much reading around the subject? Once I got interested in the idea of parts, I found other literature that was also helpful in explaining the concept of parts/aspects of self - ego state therapy for instance, and the books by John Rowan (though he keeps changing his mind about it). It's all very fascinating even if one doesn't experience parts as separate entities within oneself.

Anyway sorry for the looooooong post, I haven't posted properly in ages and poor you get my first mega post back .

I wanted to comment also on your struggle with anger, but I've written way too much already. Sorry .

Hope you're doing ok, hugs to you (((((((((( Rainbow )))))))))))))

Torn xxxxxxx

Thanks so much, Torn. Your post was not too long, and I appreciate it. I'm not sure if I'm further along than you. I'm mixed about what I want and what I can't have. It hurts too much to keep wanting it from my T. I think I can get some from different people, but not from one person. Yes, deep down I wish I could. If my T would keep holding my hand, for example. But she won't. Yeah, I should feel more acceptance than I do. Where I am is that it all hurts. So you're somewhat right about the "shoulds". I am where I am. Feeling that I have to move beyond this though I really don't want to. The child parts can't take over. My adult Self SHOULD be in charge. That's the goal. If that doesn't happen, I'll remain stuck. What if my T dies? I worry about that. I will NOT see someone else and go through this again, so I have to get through it with her. 5 Ts is plenty for one lifetime!!

Yes, IFS is useful, like you say, because we can separate out the parts. It's not ALL of us that acts a certain way, but just a part. My T would say "your parts are running the show", but you have a Self who can take charge and enable the parts to work together. If I'm angry, it's a part who is angry, not all of me. That's hard to see right now, though. If a part is ashamed of something, it's not all of me. Only a part. I haven't read too much about IFS; it's hard to find information. I know sunrise has done ego state therapy and it's similar to IFS. But now my T is studying SE--somatic experiencing, so we do more of that, but still talk about my parts.

Good luck with your therapeutic journey. Yes, sometimes people can give us what we need, but sometimes not. Anger is an important feeling but I've found sadness underneath it.

Originally Posted by hankster

Torn mind - you've clarified a couple of things for me. Recently t and I spent part of a session laughing over the new at&t commercials of the guy and the little kids, where he throws out a question like, which is better, less or more? Then I was like, why are we talking about this? I see now it relates back to getting our needs fulfilled. My t IS wily!! Less is more.

When I was in the hospital in september with crosseyes - they think a minor stroke - I called to cancel t, but then he said to call him and keep him informed. I didn't call anyone else. And after a while, it was like, okay, this is dumb, I'm running out of things to say to him. I realize now what he was doing. Just being there for me, being supportive. Last time I was in hospital with food poisoning or gall bladder from my mother's home, she would call me, telling me I wasn't really sick and to go back to work. Wtf?? Total denial of my reality.

Then when I was back at sessions, t said he WANTED to give me a ride home. I took a taxi, as he lives way the other side of town. Anyway, his earnestness puzzled me. It was like when he said he WANTED to get me a birthday present - yet, no gift? Now I get it! I can be pretty dense. Hopefully some part of me is hearing his messages, because I am being somewhat less destructive.

You mean he WANTS to do those things and expresses them even though he can't, since he's your T? I'm sorry your mother was so unsupportive to you. That hurts. You've got a great T, though.

[rainbow8]

ultramar, somewhere you posted that I've been in T for "decades". It's about 18 years. I know that's close to 2 decades, but it's not decades. I feel embarrassed by people thinking I've been in T for30 or 40 years, or something. It's not THAT long! I'm sorry if I gave that impression myself.

[unaluna]

No, I think my t just SAYS he wants to. He says it therapeutically? Symbolically? magically? We just have to fool my dinosaur brain into thinking it's been cared for, so it quits acting like a doofus in public. So that my first impulse is to act like a lady, not like a needy child. Speaking figuratively.

Eta: psychologically, we're replacing superego messages? Or a bad introject with a good introject.

Eta2: I'm the one who's been monkeying around in therapy for 40 years!

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

Hi Rainbow,

I can't find the quote, but what struck me in this thread was your statement about how you realize that nobody can really be there for you in the way you want (and the grief about that).

I think there's a piece in that grief-- and grief is such a butt-kicker and I think at the center of the resolution of most neglect and abuse in childhood-- that's about building up yourself and connecting with that part of yourself that can "do it yourself", not as substitute for other people meeting your needs, but because that part of ourselves (I think a child part) needs to be developed too.

What I mean is that kids both want to be nurtured by others and they want to "do it myself." I recall some of the bittersweet moments from my son's toddlerhood, when he was so proud to be able to "do it m'self", like putting on socks, and shoes. At almost 12 now, I am more attuned to asking him if he would like help or he would like me to get X for him, because he still likes to have me do things for him that he is perfectly capable of doing, that's partly how he feels cared for, but also giving him space and not suggesting that he can't do these things by himself. He needs both his independence and his nurturance.

I don't think it's any different when we're adults. Our child parts need to be nurtured and they need to develop a sense of mastery about what they can do for themselves-- the things that bring them joy, fulfillment, peace, etc. I suppose this isn't any different from those adult parts as well.

I guess I have felt that my child part(s) are not just limited to what I would identify as "needy" of the love and attention from others, but they are also part of my drive to do the things I love and that bring me joy-- being in nature, doing artsy things, writing, hanging with my dog, etc. As I have built up this part of myself, I feel like I need *less* from other people-- not in a "screw you, I can do it myself", but just that I don't need a specific thing in a specific way. Somewhat paradoxically, I am both better at asking for what I need and I find what people offer me (when I can accept it, which isn't all the time) more satisfying.

For me, the other side of grief is developing what wasn't able to flourish as long as I was holding onto wishing it was different or feeling a deep sense of loss for what I never had. Grief has been an opportunity to look for and nourish those parts of myself that were sidelined. As I've continued to build myself up, the grief has given way to peacefulness and satisfaction.

Thanks very much for your post, Anne. You sound like my T! Yes, she and I are trying to build up the parts of me that will bring joy and peace into my life. I'm like you. I love art, nature, and writing. I also love the lake and beach-any water soothes me! That's why I'm painting again, and writing more poetry. I'm taking yoga and zumba. I'm practicing mindfulness, and trying to enjoy each day. I'm doing all that, but I'm grieving for what I can't have, at the same time. Sometimes, like now, it gets lopsided and I feel like I have to feel the grief very deeply, and I have to tell my T how it feels. Her motto is "the only way out is through" and I am going through it again. Maybe this time I will make my way out! Again, I appreciate your posts, especially because you share how it is with you, and what helped.

[feralkittymom]

Thanks for this, Anne.

Perhaps part of what's always felt off-putting to me about the whole "parts/inner child" approach to therapy (besides the fact that intuitively it didn't reflect my self-perception) is that it so often is reduced, probably unfairly, to child=need, adult=mastery. As you say, that really is a fallacy.

Of course, babies and young children are bundles of needs--that's their job. And when caretakers can't rise to the challenge of meeting a "good enough" number of those needs, for whatever reasons, the child doesn't get what is needed for healthy development.

But so often it's assumed from this that those deficits simply mount up like bad debts. That's not always the case: some deficits remain unaddressed, some are overcome, and some are the impetus for the development of other coping skills and talents. And it all begins in childhood.

Certainly, those injuries sustained as a child which resulted in needs that remained unaddressed, can be met--but I think only by me, with the temporary help of another person. But they can't only be met by another person; without the goal of becoming able to meet my own needs in the forefront, that feels more like dependency.

[rainbow8]

I agree with you, ferralkitty.