[purplemystery]

I've always been afraid that I'm hopeless, and yesterday for the first time, it seemed like my T no longer believed in me either. I have a lot of trust issues, and things built up for the past few weeks:

-Two weeks ago I told my T something that I was angry about (not related to her), which was a big deal because I don't often feel or express anger. I also showed her a music video that I made of my sister's wedding (she had asked to see it).
-One week ago was one of those dreadful silent sessions where I barely said anything. It was like a backlash bringing me backwards after not censoring myself the week before. I told my T that I was embarrassed for everything that I had expressed last week, and I was afraid that she saw me differently after the video (she saw pictures of me and my family for the first time).
-This week I admitted to my T that I had sort of tried to sabotage the relationship the week before; I almost wanted her to get mad at me since I wasn't saying much. I also told my T that I sensed she was annoyed with me last week, and she admitted she was frustrated.

She expressed how hard it was to have seen me for hours upon hours (3+ years), and for me to have somewhat of a breakthrough, and then to regret telling her what I did and showing her the video. I feel terrible and like I let her down. I think she was using the video as a chance for us to bond, and she was really excited about it (so was I), so it must have hurt to hear that I was worried about what she thought. I didn't regret showing it to her, but I didn't say that.

Anyway, then she said the most hurtful thing. She had been thinking a couple days ago about me and was wondering this: if I was just meeting her for the first time right now, would anything at all be different (in terms of how I act; I cannot look at her at all even though it's been 3 years, and have really bad posture to hide my face). Basically, she was saying that she wasn't sure if I had internalized the relationship at all or made any gains in my trust for her. I told her that I didn't think this was true and gave a few examples, which I think she believes. But this has made me really worried and devastated.

She has always thought things would get better in time, but it seems like she doesn't believe that they will anymore. I'm not sure if she is giving up on me? It was also so strange to hear her tell me her real feelings of frustration, though I was glad that she was honest with me. Maybe she doesn't think I'm trying hard enough? I feel heart sick, and like I betrayed her because she doesn't deserve this. A lot of my relationships have ended because of my inability to trust, and I'm afraid this is another person getting annoyed with me. I feel very hopeless, terrified that I caused permanent damage to our relationship, and stuck. It just seems so hard to make eye contact and to act normally, but it's what I want more than anything. How can I improve?

P.S. Sorry this is so long! Thank you for reading!

[ThisWayOut]

I'm sorry it has been so trying.
This may not be what she was doing, but Do you think maybe her admitting to her frustrations could be a way to motivate you to trust her a bit more? I'm sure there is genuine frustration, but most t's don't bring up things like that unless they believe it had a chance of being a push towards a breakthrough. I think it at least might warrent another conversation. I have had t's tell me things that upset me quite a bit initially. I agonized over them a whole lot more than necessary, but that's just the way I am. In fact, a similar thing happened with me and my t earlier this week. I was able to write my thoughts out, and eventually able to communicate with her about it (I did very little actual talking because it was very difficult). What she said was meant to bring my attention to things that were problematic and frustrating barriers to therapy. my upset over what she said promoted a change in the way things are going. It's not the kindest way to do things, but sometimes clients have a way of ignoring the kindness (at least i do). It's also not meant to be detrimental, but to "shock" us into some sort of motion again after We start to stagnate. Keep in mind, this is just a theory. It still may be worth talking to her about it... change, attachment, and trust are all very risky. It's understandable to sabotage it at times. I think I'm the queen of sabotage...

Good luck. (Hugs)

[blur]

I think it is pretty normal that after you opened up a bit you got scared and retreated emotionally. If we weren't scared we'd be more open normally. So I'm a bit surprised your T is surprised you retreated and got quiet. It's a process so try to be gentle with yourself. To tweak an expression I've heard to fit the context of therapy I'd say: how do you spell trust? R-I-S-K. At some point we have to start taking risks if we are ever going to learn to trust. You did and that is great. Just keep talking to your T about what is coming up for you now.

[purplemystery]

MdngtRain- I hope that's why she shared that she was frustrated. It wasn't exactly that she volunteered the information. I brought up that I thought she was annoyed, and then she asked if I thought that there was something else she could have been feeling. When I said frustrated, she confirmed it. I think she kind of had to be honest. Though I guess she could have avoided the question. Maybe she is hoping that this will bring a change when nothing else has though. I will admit that I am more motivated to try harder instead of letting myself continue the same habits. Overall this could be a good thing. I know exactly what you mean about ignoring the kindness. It's harder to believe, so the negative has a greater emotional impact. Therapy has been so hard lately. Thank you so much for your help!

[purplemystery]

blur- Thanks, I think my T was perhaps disappointed because it seemed like everything went well when I told it, and she probably thought what I said wasn't a big deal. You're so right that it's all about risk. It's so hard to be vulnerable. Truth is, I am fed up with myself too. I've heard reassurances time and time again and I don't fully understand why this is such an issue. But I will try to be gentler with myself.

[Freewilled]

I could have written your post, purplemystery. I don't understand how to be vulnerable about my internal world without the other person growing tired or getting frustrated or worse, just abandoning me altogether. It's so incredibly frustrating! I don't know if you feel this way, but to me, I sometimes feel like it takes so much for me to finally trust someone and then that moment I think I'm finally there, the rug is pulled out from under me and it is like what I said all along seems to be proven right: I'm too much.

I'm sorry you're experiencing this with your T. I know how it feels as my T told me of his frustration as well. I feel like telling my T I told you so. Cause I told him that I can be difficult (not that I'm intentional about that) and I was afraid of becoming too much for him.

I'm sorry - I really don't know how to work through this either right now

[ThisWayOut]

Originally Posted by Freewilled

I could have written your post, purplemystery. I don't understand how to be vulnerable about my internal world without the other person growing tired or getting frustrated or worse, just abandoning me altogether. It's so incredibly frustrating! I don't know if you feel this way, but to me, I sometimes feel like it takes so much for me to finally trust someone and then that moment I think I'm finally there, the rug is pulled out from under me and it is like what I said all along seems to be proven right: I'm too much.

I'm sorry you're experiencing this with your T. I know how it feels as my T told me of his frustration as well. I feel like telling my T I told you so. Cause I told him that I can be difficult (not that I'm intentional about that) and I was afraid of becoming too much for him.

I'm sorry - I really don't know how to work through this either right now

I could have written that... Just had no idea how to put it into words the way you did. Thanks freewilled

A T that gets 'excited' or 'frustrated' hasn't really got the neutrality to help you.

[Freewilled]

Originally Posted by _Mouse

A T that gets 'excited' or 'frustrated' hasn't really got the neutrality to help you.

I think a T can get excited or frustrated and still be able to help. I have to believe, deep down, that all Ts experience these feelings with at least some of their clients....To me, it more depends on if they are self-aware enough to be able to identify what's going on for them and sort it out without taking it out on the client in an unhealthy way.

But the client ie op is asking has she wrecked the relationship. The T hasn't contained her own responses. Excited? Why be excited? Frustrated? Why be frustrated? I've never felt T be either of these in 10yra. Why? Because T has the skill to know therapy ebbs & flows. A client is vulnerable one session and than closed down the next.

[Freewilled]

Originally Posted by _Mouse

But the client ie op is asking has she wrecked the relationship. The T hasn't contained her own responses. Excited? Why be excited? Frustrated? Why be frustrated? I've never felt T be either of these in 10yra. Why? Because T has the skill to know therapy ebbs & flows. A client is vulnerable one session and than closed down the next.

Hmm...maybe I haven't met a T like that. You've given me some food for thought. But one more thing: did you ever come right out and say you think T may be frustrated or mad at you? Cause I think that's what the op said happened and I did the same with mine. I was open about my fear, trying to be honest, and found that my suspicion was at least somewhat correct - he was frustrated for me, with me - idk how he worded it exactly. But he shared the frustration only after being directly asked about it. Should a T then lie? Or would a T truly be able to feel no frustration at all and detach in that way? If so, I need to find that T...

[ThisWayOut]

One school of thought teaches the value of modeling appropriate emotional responses to clients who may have trouble with it, or clients who are very cut off from from emotions. It can be very powerful for a t to say/show that they are angry about a client's abuse if the client is unable to accept that being hurt in that way would generally elicit a response of anger.
There are other schools of thought that believe a client needs to reach their own milestones without interference from the t, and yet others that teach total detachment. There are still other methods that focus solely on behavior modification. Most t's will use a combination of approaches to find what works best for a client, though they may be more apt to favor one or another theory. Generally, the psychoanalytic approach is the most detached (Freud's brainchild) and client-centered theory is the most concerned about the therapeutic relationship in the role of therapy. I think I would find a more psychoanalytic-style of therapy maddening, but it seems like that detached style works really well for you _Mouse.

Sorry, I went off on a tangent...

[Asiablue]

I had a T who was neutral. Hate it and never trusted her, never believed she cared, i felt she was cold. I was just shut down the while time.
I need to have emotions mirrored to me at times, i need to know my t cares enough to hve any sort of emotion about me or my situation. And this T only volunteered how she was feeling once asked by the client which i think is good practice.
Also i think that it has spurred you on to reach out a bit and risk connecting with her which is a good thing. To have let you continue to stay in your safe protected little huddle and not say a word about it would have been wrong in my opinion.

I think there is a difference between showing appropriate emotions, and expressing frustration with a client who very reasonably feels exposed and uncomfortable after sharing private information. My T is great about expressing his feelings generally, BUT if he feels frustrated with me when I shut down and pull back after telling him something difficult and private, he NEVER tells me that and I would feel horrible if he did.

He tells me how normal it is that I feel that way given how I grew up and that this is a slow process and not to beat myself up about how long it takes, etc. He leaves reassuring voicemails when I ask him to, letting me know that the exposed feeling is normal and will pass and the information I gave him does not change how he thinks of me or feels about me.

Midnight, there is nothing detached in my therapy.

[unaluna]

I read in The Quiet Borderline that this type of patient will kinda latch on immediately. That's what I've always done, but at the same time I've held back. This t is the first time I've ever made it through that holding back, and I think it came after 5 years. Figure - the t is attaching thru fairly good stuff on their side, but we are digging thru a garbage dump on our side trying to find some solid ground - what do they expect??

[TheShins]

I'm sorry your T reacted in a way that left you feeling more exposed and unsettled in your relationship. I've been through this same cycle with my T many times over the last 4 years where I finally disclose a little more and then have a vulnerability hangover and retreat. It is hard for me to believe he doesn't feel impatient and frustrated. But for me, personally, I find it honest when he admits it (after much pestering from me) because it also makes the kind/ reassuring things he has to say more believable (trust issues often get in the way of me taking in the good stuff).

My point is that your T could really care about you, feel dedicated working through your issues with you for the long haul, and also occasionally feel frustrated. I would try not to interpret her frustration as a sign of her giving up on you. The two aren't necessarily linked at all. It would have been much more helpful is she had followed up her admission of frustration with reassuring words. Something like, "it is frustrating to me because I'd felt we'd had a breakthrough, but this just shows me how strong your defenses are and how difficult it is for you to trust me. Even though you retreated afterward, it is still progress that you were able to open up to me the way you did."

Also, for what its worth, in my therapy it got much much more difficult to disclose the more I got attached to my T. Seriously, about 2 years in I really had a much more difficult time talking with him than in the very beginning. So yes, we hope to learn to trust more and work at doing so. But sometimes the cliche is true that it gets worse before it gets better. Hopefully your T understands this and will show you the patience you deserve. I think it sounds like you are working really hard and that you showed a lot of bravery in showing her a video of you in your world. That is definitely more than I could do.

Best of luck.

[Favorite Jeans]

Originally Posted by purplemystery

I've always been afraid that I'm hopeless, and yesterday for the first time, it seemed like my T no longer believed in me either. I have a lot of trust issues, and things built up for the past few weeks:

-Two weeks ago I told my T something that I was angry about (not related to her), which was a big deal because I don't often feel or express anger. I also showed her a music video that I made of my sister's wedding (she had asked to see it).
-One week ago was one of those dreadful silent sessions where I barely said anything. It was like a backlash bringing me backwards after not censoring myself the week before. I told my T that I was embarrassed for everything that I had expressed last week, and I was afraid that she saw me differently after the video (she saw pictures of me and my family for the first time).
-This week I admitted to my T that I had sort of tried to sabotage the relationship the week before; I almost wanted her to get mad at me since I wasn't saying much. I also told my T that I sensed she was annoyed with me last week, and she admitted she was frustrated.

She expressed how hard it was to have seen me for hours upon hours (3+ years), and for me to have somewhat of a breakthrough, and then to regret telling her what I did and showing her the video. I feel terrible and like I let her down. I think she was using the video as a chance for us to bond, and she was really excited about it (so was I), so it must have hurt to hear that I was worried about what she thought. I didn't regret showing it to her, but I didn't say that.

Anyway, then she said the most hurtful thing. She had been thinking a couple days ago about me and was wondering this: if I was just meeting her for the first time right now, would anything at all be different (in terms of how I act; I cannot look at her at all even though it's been 3 years, and have really bad posture to hide my face). Basically, she was saying that she wasn't sure if I had internalized the relationship at all or made any gains in my trust for her. I told her that I didn't think this was true and gave a few examples, which I think she believes. But this has made me really worried and devastated.

She has always thought things would get better in time, but it seems like she doesn't believe that they will anymore. I'm not sure if she is giving up on me? It was also so strange to hear her tell me her real feelings of frustration, though I was glad that she was honest with me. Maybe she doesn't think I'm trying hard enough? I feel heart sick, and like I betrayed her because she doesn't deserve this. A lot of my relationships have ended because of my inability to trust, and I'm afraid this is another person getting annoyed with me. I feel very hopeless, terrified that I caused permanent damage to our relationship, and stuck. It just seems so hard to make eye contact and to act normally, but it's what I want more than anything. How can I improve?

P.S. Sorry this is so long! Thank you for reading!

Hey PM why don't you show her this post (or rewrite it in letter form) and check in about it at the next visit. I think it's important for you to check with her what she's feeling and thinking rather than guessing, forgetting that you guessed and having your fears become the "truth" in your mind. It is your job to take risks but it's hers to help you feel safe and try to meet you where you're at.

Originally Posted by MdngtRain

Generally, the psychoanalytic approach is the most detached (Freud's brainchild) and client-centered theory is the most concerned about the therapeutic relationship in the role of therapy.

There is a difference between attachment/enmeshment and detachment/ lack of enmeshment. Psychoanalytic therapy can be the most relationally oriented therapy since there is intense focus on feelings between the therapist and patient. The therapist works with the transference, which are often highly-charged emotions that arise from the relationship and the patient's past relationships. The therapists neutral stance has a very containing effect. But it is not the same as being detached.

In healthy relationships with a strong connection, however, each person can pay attention to the other without losing or compromising their sense of self. Neither changes who they are or what they think or feel to please the other person. They can be apart without falling apart and be together without losing their individuality. Love is about the freedom to be yourself and be loved just the way you are, even if it's different from your partner.

The neutrality also allows the client space to be herself without fear of rejection or abandonment. The therapist does not judge or be 'reactive'. That allows the patient to develop a strong sense of self because she now has a worry-free zone in which she can feel free to express herself in both actions and words, rather than consciously or unconsciously changing depending on what the therapist does or doesn't do/how the therapist reacts or doesn't react. The lack of judgment and emotional reactivity amounts to unconditional acceptance of the patient's emotions, thoughts, dreams and fantasies. I think this therapy is best for those of us who grew up with enmeshment, where caregivers didn't allow for the child to be autonomous. Often these parents grew up in a similar atmosphere, so the cycle continues.

Psychoanalytic therapy was the most rewarding therapy I've ever experienced, and there was nothing detached about it. It was the most intimate relationship I've ever had with another adult, and I felt loved by my therapist.

There are often misconceptions written about this type of therapy, so I wanted to explain what I know about it.

quote from: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201301/enmeshment-in-family-relationships-111

Originally Posted by purplemystery

She expressed how hard it was to have seen me for hours upon hours (3+ years), and for me to have somewhat of a breakthrough, and then to regret telling her what I did and showing her the video. I feel terrible and like I let her down.

Anyway, then she said the most hurtful thing. She had been thinking a couple days ago about me and was wondering this: if I was just meeting her for the first time right now, would anything at all be different (in terms of how I act; I cannot look at her at all even though it's been 3 years, and have really bad posture to hide my face).

PurpleMystery, I am sorry you are feeling so terrible. I know therapists feel frustrated, and I think it's ok to tell patients about it if it's done in a way that benefits the client. Here it seems like either she was expressing how difficult it was seeing this to show how much she cares, how much she wants to help you, but the other thing that crossed my mind is that maybe she is (unconsciously) making you responsible for her feelings here?

I hope you can give her the benefit of the doubt and try to work through this. But I wanted to let you know that a therapist I once had did subtle things to regularly 'guilt' or 'shame' me (which I didn't know at the time), but now I know that behavior results from a T who hasn't worked through all her issues. If this isn't a pattern with her, than maybe the source of these difficult feelings is not her issues.

It must feel awful to fear T is giving up on you. I didn't see anything you have written here that conveys that message, so maybe it is projecting your feelings that she let you down? If so, that is a healthy thing to acknowledge and work through. I hope that is all it is. Best to you.

[purplemystery]

Freewilled: I agree that it is frustrating, and I've always wondered how in the world she could be so patient with me. But I guess I reached my limit with her. I do feel that rug being pulled out from under you feeling too. Thank you for describing it so well. It's tough when they've said that it's okay to be feeling this way, and that you can take all time time you need, and then eventually they do get frustrated (though I completely understand why she was). I've had the same fear deep down that one day she would say enough is enough. She didn't let me go, and I don't think she will. But I agree that it's tempting to say "I told you so."

_Mouse: I do still think that my T is skilled and helpful, though I agree with you that she didn't seem to understand me being closed down and silent in the session after I opened up. I don't think she understands why it's all so hard for me (a contributing factor has to do with my feelings for her). She mostly sees clients on a short-term basis, so I think she may be comparing me with others and seeing that even though I've seen her much longer, I'm much more closed off. I think overall her intentions were good, she didn't do anything wrong, and this will be a helpful experience for me. But it's possible that she could have been more understanding and maybe she let her own feelings about her performance get in the way? I appreciate your point of view.

[purplemystery]

Originally Posted by MdngtRain

One school of thought teaches the value of modeling appropriate emotional responses to clients who may have trouble with it, or clients who are very cut off from from emotions. It can be very powerful for a t to say/show that they are angry about a client's abuse if the client is unable to accept that being hurt in that way would generally elicit a response of anger.
There are other schools of thought that believe a client needs to reach their own milestones without interference from the t, and yet others that teach total detachment. There are still other methods that focus solely on behavior modification. Most t's will use a combination of approaches to find what works best for a client, though they may be more apt to favor one or another theory. Generally, the psychoanalytic approach is the most detached (Freud's brainchild) and client-centered theory is the most concerned about the therapeutic relationship in the role of therapy. I think I would find a more psychoanalytic-style of therapy maddening, but it seems like that detached style works really well for you _Mouse.

Sorry, I went off on a tangent...

I think this is what my T was doing. She has shown her anger at other people in my life. For example, when I got hit by a car as a pedestrian and didn't feel angry toward the person. I think I would rather her be honest, because people in real life are going to feel frustration with me the way I am now. I guess I need to learn how others will respond to me and see what I can do to change that.

[purplemystery]

Originally Posted by Asiablue

I had a T who was neutral. Hate it and never trusted her, never believed she cared, i felt she was cold. I was just shut down the while time.
I need to have emotions mirrored to me at times, i need to know my t cares enough to hve any sort of emotion about me or my situation. And this T only volunteered how she was feeling once asked by the client which i think is good practice.
Also i think that it has spurred you on to reach out a bit and risk connecting with her which is a good thing. To have let you continue to stay in your safe protected little huddle and not say a word about it would have been wrong in my opinion.

This is how I feel too- my T can be very neutral at times, and it unnerves me because I want to know what she is really thinking. Hopefully most Ts are non-judgmental, but most of them will still have their opinions I think. She didn't share how she was feeling until I specifically said that she could have felt frustration, so she wasn't going out of her way to tell me. I agree that I will know that the positives that she says are true only if she is honest with me about the negatives. This has unnerved me, but I do think I will respond to it by trying harder.

[purplemystery]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

I think there is a difference between showing appropriate emotions, and expressing frustration with a client who very reasonably feels exposed and uncomfortable after sharing private information. My T is great about expressing his feelings generally, BUT if he feels frustrated with me when I shut down and pull back after telling him something difficult and private, he NEVER tells me that and I would feel horrible if he did.

He tells me how normal it is that I feel that way given how I grew up and that this is a slow process and not to beat myself up about how long it takes, etc. He leaves reassuring voicemails when I ask him to, letting me know that the exposed feeling is normal and will pass and the information I gave him does not change how he thinks of me or feels about me.

Your T sounds very understanding about vulnerability. That's great that he reassures you. My T will reassure me if I mention my concerns, but will not go out of her way to give reassurance. She does thank me for telling her something that she knows was difficult. I did feel horrible, not so much when she said she was frustrated (though that hurt too when I analyzed it later), but more when she said that she thought I hadn't changed at all around her since the beginning. It was like she had wiped away the relationship, saying that none of it mattered because I'm still acting guarded. I feel like I deserve that comment though.

[purplemystery]

Originally Posted by hankster

I read in The Quiet Borderline that this type of patient will kinda latch on immediately. That's what I've always done, but at the same time I've held back. This t is the first time I've ever made it through that holding back, and I think it came after 5 years. Figure - the t is attaching thru fairly good stuff on their side, but we are digging thru a garbage dump on our side trying to find some solid ground - what do they expect??

Thanks hankster, I feel better about my situation if you say it took you awhile too. I don't think she understands, and I think that's where the frustration is coming from. I think she thinks it should be easy for me by now, like I'm just not being tough enough?

[purplemystery]

Originally Posted by TheShins

I'm sorry your T reacted in a way that left you feeling more exposed and unsettled in your relationship. I've been through this same cycle with my T many times over the last 4 years where I finally disclose a little more and then have a vulnerability hangover and retreat. It is hard for me to believe he doesn't feel impatient and frustrated. But for me, personally, I find it honest when he admits it (after much pestering from me) because it also makes the kind/ reassuring things he has to say more believable (trust issues often get in the way of me taking in the good stuff).

My point is that your T could really care about you, feel dedicated working through your issues with you for the long haul, and also occasionally feel frustrated. I would try not to interpret her frustration as a sign of her giving up on you. The two aren't necessarily linked at all. It would have been much more helpful is she had followed up her admission of frustration with reassuring words. Something like, "it is frustrating to me because I'd felt we'd had a breakthrough, but this just shows me how strong your defenses are and how difficult it is for you to trust me. Even though you retreated afterward, it is still progress that you were able to open up to me the way you did."

Also, for what its worth, in my therapy it got much much more difficult to disclose the more I got attached to my T. Seriously, about 2 years in I really had a much more difficult time talking with him than in the very beginning. So yes, we hope to learn to trust more and work at doing so. But sometimes the cliche is true that it gets worse before it gets better. Hopefully your T understands this and will show you the patience you deserve. I think it sounds like you are working really hard and that you showed a lot of bravery in showing her a video of you in your world. That is definitely more than I could do.

Best of luck.

Wow, thank you so much for your comment! This has really helped me see how I could look at what happened in a more positive way. I completely agree that knowing the truth about what she thinks (the frustration) makes it easier to believe the positive things (that she wasn't angry). And thanks for sharing your experience- it makes me feel a little less hopeless. I will try to remind myself that I did show progress when I opened up and showed her the video. I am also attached to my T, and that has made it more difficult to open up in some ways because I care that much more about our relationship.