Do you push/pull?

I tend to pull back when I feel overwhelmed or like a person is too close to me emotionally. Mostly I just shut down, get really polite, talk about superficial things, or something we've discussed before that isn't very emotional or "hot" for me. Then I calm down and move back to the emotional space we had before.

My T and I have discussed this and the analogy that worked best for me was one to how I rehab abused horses. When a horse has been abused, he (or she) often panics when tied up. So I never actually tie up a previously abused animal. I have a tree with a fork in it in my yard. I use a really long rope, take the horse to that tree and just throw the rope through the fork of the tree. When the horse gets frightened and pulls back, I let him go backwards as far as he needs to feel safe, just keeping a light hold on the rope so I don't lose the connection to the horse completely (can't let him get out on the road and get hurt). When the horse calms down, I slowly take up the slack in the rope as he moves forward to stand beside me again. As the training progresses, I push the rope down a little harder into the fork, so there's more pressure on the rope when he pulls back, but not so much he gets more frightened, or can't actually get away to a space he feels safe. Eventually, the horse realizes that I am not going to force him to stay or hurt him, and he just stands there and lets me work with him.

T says, other than the use of ropes (haha), that is exactly what he does. He stays calm and quiet and lets the client pull back, flee or whatever, but he maintains a light contact until the person calms down and is willing to do the work again.

MKAC this is such a beautiful analogy.

And what amazing work you do with abused Horses. So glad there's people like you in the world.

I do this, but I realize that even when I pull back, it's because I really want T (or whoever else) to follow me and meet me where I am. I realize that when I pull away, that's when I need people the most, which can be confusing for other people who see me pulling back from them and think that's actually what I want, when what I really need is for them to come closer. When I'm being angry and withdrawn, that's when I need the most reassurance and care and gentleness and support. It's contradictory, because my way of trying to get my needs met is to act in ways that are the least likely ways to get my needs met.

T calls this "miscuing" people (attachment term, apparently), but I don't think she actually sees that I do this with her too.

Yearning, maybe the analogy doesn't work for people so well, but with any animal, abused or otherwise, I make a point of ignoring behavior I don't like or that is not productive. Abused animals often have weird, quirky things they do. I had one mare that would rear in place when upset. I never corrected her for it, but I never, ever petted her or went up to her while she was doing it either. I ignored it and when she stopped, I gave her attention and we went back to what we were doing. For me, it's all about not reinforcing behaviors that are problematic. If my daughter is angry and withdrawn, I let her withdraw, but let her know I'm available if she wants contact.

I think if your T were to follow you and give you reassurance and care and gentleness at that point, it would be reinforcing a behavior that is counterproductive in your real life.

Probably. But I think when I'm withdrawing, that's me trying to protect myself from the other person, so I need them to show me they're not going to hurt me. I remember with former CBT, the thing that led to termination (other than ridiculous maternal transference) was her telling me that she wasn't going to chase me; she wasn't going to make me do the work if I didn't want to do it. She told me she wasn't going to book another appointment with me right that very moment and to call her to book an appointment when I was ready. I took that as my excuse to never go back.

If instead she had empathized and tried to connect more with me and been like, "I can see that it's really difficult for you to open up to me and I can see that it's really hard for you to trust me, and it's okay; I'll wait. I'm here and I'm not going to abandon you. What can I do to make this easier for you?" I might have actually engaged with her and considered what I really needed to be able to do the work. Instead, I interpreted her not "giving in" as her not caring about me and not wanting to work with me anymore, so I figured here was my excuse to leave. (I was also fifteen at the time, but there you go.)

I also feel like part of parenting (I know T isn't a parent, but as an analogy) is giving your kids love even when they're acting the least loveable. When I was a kid and I was having a tantrum (I suppose tantrum really = anxiety fit), the one thing that would have calmed me down would have been one of my parents giving me a hug and telling me they loved me instead of threatening/punishing/ignoring when I was literally crying out for help; the behavior was just manifesting in an incredibly unpleasant way. But you're not supposed to "give in" to your kid's tantrums, so they never did, and instead I was stuck trying to deal with my anxiety (which manifested in a tantrum-like way) on my own, because giving your kid attention when they're behaving "badly" is apparently bad parenting.

That approach did not serve me well in the slightest.

"Tough love" might work for other people, but it never has for me, and for me, withdrawing = I am in so much pain right now that I need you to help me through this, and withholding attention from me at that point would be counterproductive and would just reinforce the guilt I feel over not being able to get out of this myself. I've had people do that to me all my life, and it has only made things worse, so I feel like for me, I need something different.

Ah, I think we're having a miscommunication actually. I thought you meant something else by the other person having to follow you. My T, when I'm pulling back and emotionally withdrawn, would never refuse to make another appointment for me. I have my regular appointments and he just gently reminds me that he isn't going anywhere. I can come and go physically and emotionally as I like, and he will always be there. He has used almost the exact words you suggested -- telling me he knows trust isn't easy, and I have no real reason to think that people in general are trustworthy, and he has asked me specifically what he can do to make things easier for me. But if I were to tell him I was leaving and tell him not to follow or call, he would let me leave and he would not follow. He would, however, probably call after a few weeks.

In reference to the kids' tantrums thing, I did mostly ignore my children's tantrums. I would tell them I love them and to let me know when they wanted to discuss whatever it was that was upsetting. I empathized with their feelings and said their feelings were acceptable, but their current behavior was not, and then I ignored them until they stopped the tantrum. They didn't have to stop crying, or being upset: they just had to stop screaming, hitting, kicking, whatever, and then they could have all the cuddling and attention they wanted. All emotions are okay; all behaviors are not.

I didn't mean that I wanted T to physically follow me if I got up and left (although a phone call afterwards might be nice - T would never do that, though), but more like emotionally, if I'm pulling away from her and not talking as freely, it's not because I'm trying to make her react to me in a certain way, but just because I'm really feeling vulnerable in front of her and don't know how to handle that and need her help. So instead of her being like, "I can't help you if you don't tell me what's going on," or "I can't read your mind," which to me is shaming, the empathy is important so then I can feel safer.

Or even if I'm getting frustrated at T and maybe not expressing myself in the best way, i.e. being like, "You're not listening to me!" or saying things she interprets as critical, I'm not actually intending to be critical/rude or whatever, but that's just a sign that I've reached my patience threshold and am getting very frustrated and uncomfortable and feeling vulnerable, and instead of T (or anyone) being like, "You're just criticizing everything I say," or matching my tone and saying the same things back to me, what I really need is for the other person to help me defuse the situation and get my emotions back under control with compassion and without judgement, because I'm doing the best I can.

What I need in moments like that isn't harshness and for the other person to pull back because they don't like how I'm treating them or they think I need some space. Instead I need them to try to connect with me, because in those moments where I'm either pulling away from others or lashing out at others that's just because I'm in so much pain and so frustrated and upset at myself that it's manifesting in counterproductive ways. I need that person to empathize with that pain and reassure me that they're still here for me, even if I'm not behaving in the most perfect way right now.

To be clear, there are certain behaviors (ex. hitting, insults, threats) that should never be tolerated regardless of the circumstances, whether from a kid or a client or whoever. That's not really what I'm talking about. What I mean is just withdrawing, frustration, short-temperedness - those things can be worked through if a T (or whoever) responds gently, patiently, and skillfully. Whereas if I was doing manipulative things like trying to bait her into reacting a certain way or inappropriate things like yelling at her, that would be a different story.

What I need in moments like that isn't harshness and for the other person to pull back because they don't like how I'm treating them or they think I need some space. Instead I need them to try to connect with me, because in those moments where I'm either pulling away from others or lashing out at others that's just because I'm in so much pain and so frustrated and upset at myself that it's manifesting in counterproductive ways. I need that person to empathize with that pain and reassure me that they're still here for me, even if I'm not behaving in the most perfect way right now.

I think in absence of a (good enough) parent the only person who is willing to do that is a therapist. Most people will react rather than respond to bad behaviour.

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How I "push" in therapy:
Not communicating
No eye contact/looking at the floor
Holding back information
Changing the subject
Restricting her from a topic
Telling her I don't want to continue therapy with her
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How I "pull" in therapy:
Telling her that I feel like she's pushing me away
" " like she is rejecting me, abandoning me, not giving me credit
Throwing a pity party: "Everyone fights, but why do I have to fight just to live"
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I can't restrict physical contact with my T because I'll never get it again. But with other people, I do restrict physical contact when I want to "push". I also insult sometimes, but again not with my T.
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* Sometimes when I "push" it tends to pull; and sometimes when I "pull" it tends to push. Never can guarantee a reaction from anyone

I think this demonstrates really well the confusion we have inside about connecting with our T's.

Yes - I do this Not purposely, but I see it now that I'm thinking about it. I knew that I pushed my T, but didn't realize my pull behavior. I will try to get him to agree with me that he can't help me, he's really not wanting to help me or hates me, yadda yadda. Then lately I sent him an email saying I do really appreciate him and need his help....WTF? My poor T. I don't get why I do this stuff.

T says I'm testing him and it's perfectly understandable. Eh. I don't want to do that, especially to him.

I do sometimes pull and shut down from T. Usually it is when she has touched on a painful subject. I don't know how much she recognizes it because I continue to talk to her but I will only tell facts and will completely minimize my feelings and emotions. Even if she says "what are you thinking right now" I might make something up. A few times she has mentioned that I am closed emotionally by my body language (crossed arms). Shutting down is in no way intentional I think it is something I learned to do as a child in order to protect myself.

Also T also realizes that words can definitely shut me down even if they weren't intended the way I interpreted... For instance one time pcp mentioned that she could understand why I am stressed out because I have two boys with behavioral issues. I took that as they are bad and trouble makers...what she MEANT was that I have two boys with ADHD and while they are very well behaved it has taken A LOT of work to get them there and well ADHD falls under behavioral health... I talked with T for a while about this as I had such a great relationship with pcp but pulled away because I felt like she was putting my boys down.

As far as everybody else I tend to do react this way. I often misinterpret things as meaning them I am to much for people to deal with so they are going to walk out (like my dad did). However, I never say anything to people other than to vent to hubby.

I push and pull on my T's quite a lot. I will pull close to them, push them away, and pull them back within a single sentence. I actually sometimes do this completely intentionally so I can judge a) how they handle being pushed away and having their methods questioned b) how intelligent they are/quick on their feet c) if they are willing to "play" with me.

I also do it unintentionally