[Yearning0723]

Apparently the queer community in an area centered around a major university with 62 000 students is small. Very small. So small that you and the first potential new T you consult might discover that you attend the same weekly discussion group at your university (which is open to undergrad and grad students and faculty and alumni too).

So obviously this would never work as a therapy relationship. But this is why people need profile pictures on their websites so I could have recognized her and not gotten myself into a situation where I emailed her telling her I was seeking therapy to resolve attachment issues stemming from childhood maltreatment. I see this person every week and we run in a lot of the same circles, which is apparently pretty normal in the queer community, even when people are a lot older than you.

Thank goodness this was a face to face consult and not via phone, because I didn't know her last name and she didn't know mine, so in that case I would have revealed an excess of personal information without realizing we knew each other and a therapeutic relationship was out of the question...

Seeing her now at this discussion group is going to be super, super awkward. And it's not just the discussion group - we attended the same queer leadership conference last month and we will probably attend a lot of the same events in the future.

I now have an irrational fear that the other Ts on my list might also already know me or might know me in an academic setting in the future. They both have ties to my university. So does current T, actually, but I suppose she's too busy to have anything to do with it these days. And we've discussed what would happen if we met each other socially, like at Pride or something, and she would ignore me. (Of course she would.)

But potential T #1 also works as a counsellor at my school, but with the faculty of medicine, so hopefully no dual relationship there...even though a lot of queer events on campus are open to staff and students across faculties. Potential T #2 lectures at the faculty of social work at my school, so again, hopefully no dual relationship, but ugh, what if we ran into each other at events on a regular basis? It would be bad.

But there literally aren't any queer (or even queer positive) Ts that I could find who work in my area and do trauma work who don't have some connection to this huge research university. Current T does occasional research projects with the faculty of social work and graduated from there, but thankfully I haven't run into her there and don't expect to.

Therapy life and real life should never, ever mix.

[blur]

One thing you might want to consider is keeping your current T for your gender work and have another T, possibly even a non-queer one, for everything else.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by blur

One thing you might want to consider is keeping your current T for your gender work and have another T, possibly even a non-queer one, for everything else.

I feel like the queer-related stuff is intimately connected to all my other stuff though. Like relationships, for example. When I start dating someone, the queer stuff and the attachment stuff are going to feed off each other and multiply into catastrophic proportions. I want to keep current T for now and work with both Ts, even if I might end up weaning myself off current T, but I feel like having a T who isn't queer or at the very least queer knowledgeable might be shooting myself in the foot.

[growlycat]

Although awkward to run into the same people, T's still must maintain confidentiality. In an interview, before bringing up your issues, can you ask the T how they handle social run-ins?

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by growlycat

Although awkward to run into the same people, T's still must maintain confidentiality. In an interview, before bringing up your issues, can you ask the T how they handle social run-ins?

I know this person isn't going to tell anyone about what I told her; it's just the fact that she knows it, that she knows that I have "attachment issues stemming from childhood maltreatment", which isn't something I tell a lot of people, especially acquaintances who I see once a week.

And I know I would need to ask about social run-ins (with current T, her answer is that she will simply ignore me - of course she will, and this is why I stay with her, because she's safe; we will never have this issue). But social run-ins, ex. seeing each other at Pride, is different than running into each other regularly at school functions or her giving a workshop to my class or something like that...

[blur]

Yeah, I can see how they might be related for some things. Reading some of your threads I think a lot of your work will be on understanding boundaries, communication issues, and distress tolerance. Those things don't seem to me to have much to do with being queer but are just skills everyone has to learn. Jmo. I guess you'll have to compromise somewhere in what you want with living in a smaller city.

On another thread of yours I mentioned 12 step groups. Sometimes there are meetings that are LGBT and of course everything is anonymous so you can also get support that way without having to worry about what you say leaving the room. If your dad won't pay for another T that is a good free resource.

You'll figure out the right combination of support. It will just take a bit of time and creativity.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by blur

Yeah, I can see how they might be related for some things. Reading some of your threads I think a lot of your work will be on understanding boundaries, communication issues, and distress tolerance. Those things don't seem to me to have much to do with being queer but are just skills everyone has to learn. Jmo. I guess you'll have to compromise somewhere in what you want with living in a smaller city. On another thread of yours I mentioned 12 step groups. Sometimes there are meetings that are LGBT and of course everything is anonymous so you can also get support that way without having to worry about what you say leaving the room. If your dad won't pay for another T that is a good free resource.

You'll figure out the right combination of support. It will just take a bit of time and creativity.

The issues I'm working on now have very little to do with being queer. But these things come in phases; six months ago, a lot of the work we were doing was around being queer and coming out to people and becoming more comfortable with that part of my identity, and I feel like as soon as I start dating, this issue will come up again, so better to be prepared for it. I have a support group I go to already, but it's not the same as therapy.

And my father will pay for two therapists, at least for a short time, based on the creatively rendered story I told him regarding why I needed two for now. Which is maybe not fair, but also, reality. I don't know if I'm ready to leave current T, but I also know that she isn't enough for me right now.

[growlycat]

I personally find it hard to "split issues"--somehow everything can be related!

[HazelGirl]

I get why you might find it awkward (and if you're in the same group, it's a definite no), but running into someone at an event a few times a year isn't a big deal. If you don't see them regularly, it shouldn't be too awkward as long as you talk ahead of time about what to do.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by HazelGirl

I get why you might find it awkward (and if you're in the same group, it's a definite no), but running into someone at an event a few times a year isn't a big deal. If you don't see them regularly, it shouldn't be too awkward as long as you talk ahead of time about what to do.

Okay, I'm probably blowing the "same thing might happen with other potential Ts!" thing out of proportion, probably because this experience really shook me and is sort of making me want to stay exclusively with current T since that would never be an issue with her; if we ran into each other, she would simply ignore me and I would go about my day without worrying about it.

But I feel so upset about this person who I have to see every week knowing this "secret" about me - I know she won't tell anyone; I know she's a therapist and she's definitely heard worse; I know she's not judging me. It's just that to the world, especially in this group, I am competent, confident, and in control. And not the sort of person who needs a therapist to work out attachment issues stemming from childhood maltreatment. I feel exposed and unclean and I don't like it.

[Yearning0723]

The thing about current T that makes me not want to leave her is that she's like a box. A box that's completely shut away from the rest of my world; a box that I can close and leave if I desire. She's not part of my real life and she never will be. Whereas another T who might run in the same circles...or moreover, another T who would have no problem with out of session contact or who might be more lax with boundaries or who might in some way bleed over into my real life...this would be completely unsafe.

Current T is safe; she and I will never have a relationship that feels even a little bit real. It exists in a vacuum in its own universe. But a new T, a more relational T...yikes.

[HazelGirl]

Originally Posted by Yearning0723

Okay, I'm probably blowing the "same thing might happen with other potential Ts!" thing out of proportion, probably because this experience really shook me and is sort of making me want to stay exclusively with current T since that would never be an issue with her; if we ran into each other, she would simply ignore me and I would go about my day without worrying about it.

But I feel so upset about this person who I have to see every week knowing this "secret" about me - I know she won't tell anyone; I know she's a therapist and she's definitely heard worse; I know she's not judging me. It's just that to the world, especially in this group, I am competent, confident, and in control. And not the sort of person who needs a therapist to work out attachment issues stemming from childhood maltreatment. I feel exposed and unclean and I don't like it.

I hear you judging yourself and others who need therapy. It wasn't your fault that you had terrible parents who messed up the whole attachment thing. And you shouldn't be blamed or judged for needing to repair it. In fact, you should be applauded for being brave enough to face it and get the help you need.

[Favorite Jeans]

Here's my 2 cents:

I've had pretty good luck just asking T's over the phone if they're queer positive. I've stopped looking for them in pink pages type listings or even looking for people who write that they're queer positive on their website. I think it's usually pretty easy to tell early on when someone feels awkward about my being queer (or is actually homophobic) and just not go back. I mention this because this way i can widen my search and minimize my risk of the kind of awkward situation you just had. Plus I really just want a T who is skilled and compassionate and accepting and being queer is no guarantee of having those qualities. (Bonus: I'm rarely attracted to straight women, and have managed to avoid feeling like I'm in love with current T. I still want her to adopt me and that sucks but I don't know if I could manage also having romantic feelings for her as I've been there, done that and found it to be incomparably suckier!)

I did once do a phone interview with a gay T who did not have room for a new client immediately but we spent about half and hour talking and got into issues in some depth. I then found another T who could see me immediately and never ended up seeing the first guy. Fast forward two years or so and a mutual friend introduced me to a guy at a party. We had babies born a month apart and made plans to hang out at his house. Well when I got there he introduced me to his partner who was the gay T from the phone interview. I don't know if he remembered my name but I remembered his and felt pretty awkward!

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Favorite Jeans

Here's my 2 cents:

I've had pretty good luck just asking T's over the phone if they're queer positive. I've stopped looking for them in pink pages type listings or even looking for people who write that they're queer positive on their website. I think it's usually pretty easy to tell early on when someone feels awkward about my being queer (or is actually homophobic) and just not go back. I mention this because this way i can widen my search and minimize my risk of the kind of awkward situation you just had. Plus I really just want a T who is skilled and compassionate and accepting and being queer is no guarantee of having those qualities. (Bonus: I'm rarely attracted to straight women, and have managed to avoid feeling like I'm in love with current T. I still want her to adopt me and that sucks but I don't know if I could manage also having romantic feelings for her as I've been there, done that and found it to be incomparably suckier!)

I did once do a phone interview with a gay T who did not have room for a new client immediately but we spent about half and hour talking and got into issues in some depth. I then found another T who could see me immediately and never ended up seeing the first guy. Fast forward two years or so and a mutual friend introduced me to a guy at a party. We had babies born a month apart and made plans to hang out at his house. Well when I got there he introduced me to his partner who was the gay T from the phone interview. I don't know if he remembered my name but I remembered his and felt pretty awkward!

Your situation with the gay T you didn't see is like the most terrifying situation I could imagine, other than my T happening to know current mentor figure because they're both gay and about the same age. (Current T does not know current mentor figure, or if she does she doesn't know she does, but I feel like that's less because they don't run in the same circles and more due to luck/current T not having time to run in any circles not directly related to her job these days.)

The thing about queer friendly but not necessarily queer knowledgeable therapists - I mean, I don't know, because I can see how that would be a solution to this problem, but I've had several very queer friendly and somewhat knowledgeable straight Ts before and it just didn't work for me. I felt too much like they were open but didn't have enough experience in the real world and instead were asking about the rudimentary coming out story, who am I out to, how do I feel about that, which really doesn't reflect the nuances of my sexual orientation. (This might be a millennial thing, the shunning of normativity and all that.)

But for example, a straight T probably has no clue what pansexuality is. Straight, gay, even bisexual, maybe even trans, sure. But pansexual? Asexual but bi-romantic? These are just things straight Ts won't know about but many queer Ts will. (Or possibly just current T since she worked at a very LGBT friendly sexual health clinic for a few years...) I mean, sure straight Ts can learn about this stuff, but it's different. Straight Ts want to know my coming out story and don't necessarily understand that it's not a cohesive narrative; there was no big "coming out" for me. It just sort of happened in the middle of another conversation and no big deal.

I've found that past straight Ts assumed that because homophobia has never been an issue for me, then my queer identity isn't an issue, but for me, it's a big one in a lot of ways, although not your traditional self-loathing ways but in a more intersectional way. And sometimes I feel like the fact that my experience of my sexual orientation is so different and so "not a big deal but also kind of a big deal" creates a lot of distance between me and other queer people, and that is a serious issue that I struggle with all the time, feeling neither here nor there - not straight enough (because I'm not) but also not gay enough (because I'm so femme and "pass" all the time and have never experienced overt homophobia). Straight people also don't always understand the full extent of internalized homophobia or fear of homophobia, even when it's never been directed at you, or heterosexist microaggressions, or the frustration that comes from not seeing representations "like you" all over the place like straight people get to. Maybe some straight Ts could understand all these things as well as a queer T, but that hasn't been my experience.

And it's also just a comfort thing for me...but perhaps something I could overcome. Ugh. Even in the city, the queer community is quite interconnected.

I could also just be using queerness as a heuristic for something else, but on a gut level, seeing a queer T feels right and seeing a straight T feels not right, and perhaps my reasons for this are completely irrational, but that's how I feel, and 99% of therapy's successes are directly or indirectly the result of the therapeutic relationship, and your attitude towards the therapeutic relationship is a pretty good predictor of how well said relationship will go. So I might have a more positive attitude towards a queer T who meets other specific irrational criteria (ex. not having the same name as my mother, former teacher, or current mentor, being a certain age), and there might be nothing wrong with that...

This is all so overwhelming. Part of me wants to give up and just stick with current T so I don't have to think about all this stuff and deal with it in a rational way. I'm not equipped to make these kinds of decisions.

[OneWorld]

I'd go with my gut and see the type of T that fits for you ... male, female, gay, straight ... Whatever makes you most comfortable.

However, all of those things you mentioned are all things that a straight T might not understand but they would understand the underlying issues of not feeling accepted, etc.

Not going to a queer T because you are queer seems like it could be the same as someone not going to a T who had to deal with CSA if the patient wants to process their stuff in light of having to deal with CSA themselves.

But it is your therapy and you should go to whomever makes you comfortable. That's the most important part.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bill3]

How accurate is this as a summary for you?:

Straight Ts can provide a sealed world but, at a minimum, in your experience, need to be educated.

Queer Ts can't likely provide that sealed world but you feel better about them and they will understand you better.

[blur]

I actually think you would be wise to stick with your current T, not primarily for the reasons you are mentioning here although they do contribute, but because I think you need a T with really firm boundaries. Jmo. If you need more support then you could find additional support like with the DBT group.

[Favorite Jeans]

I hear you. It's kind of a funny thing what I want my T to just get immediately and intuitively and what I'm glad that she doesn't. There are things my T doesn't necessarily get about, say, internalized homophobia that have forced me to explain myself to her. In doing so I've had some big realizations that I might not have had if we'd each assumed that she knew what I was talking about.

(Just the other day I was explaining the term micro-aggression to her and instead of letting it be a theoretical discussion she asked me to give some examples from my life. She asked how recently and often I felt I encountered micro-aggression and after thinking about it, I gave an example from the day before. It was a helpful conversation.)

Really internalized homophobia feels to me like a specific manifestation of shame and low self esteem. I feel like she really gets shame and low self-esteem quickly and intuitively so it works out.

What I feel like she doesn't get so well is the notion of depression as an illness rather than a feeling. She has had to really stretch sometimes to see where I'm coming from and I appreciate her effort but really, really wish she just got it. I've felt frustrated to tears about it at times. I've felt like finding a T who suffers from depression, someone who wouldn't say shite like "how you're feeling is a feeling... not a fact" that makes me feel like throttling her. We've worked on the issue and I stay with her because, apart from working well together in general, I appreciate how much effort she makes to get it and how much she cares about my frustration and sadness when I feel she doesn't. But I feel like in a perfect world she'd just know.

It sounds like that's how you're feeling about having a queer T. Various aspects of our lives, experiences and identities need specific kinds of understanding and care at different times. Right now, for you, sounds like it's important to have a T who just knows queer.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Bill3

How accurate is this as a summary for you?:

Straight Ts can provide a sealed world but, at a minimum, in your experience, need to be educated.

Queer Ts can't likely provide that sealed world but you feel better about them and they will understand you better.

Yes...I think I would feel safer discussing stuff about (potential) relationships with a queer T rather than a straight one. Even if it's just in my head...

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Favorite Jeans

I hear you. It's kind of a funny thing what I want my T to just get immediately and intuitively and what I'm glad that she doesn't. There are things my T doesn't necessarily get about, say, internalized homophobia that have forced me to explain myself to her. In doing so I've had some big realizations that I might not have had if we'd each assumed that she knew what I was talking about.

(Just the other day I was explaining the term micro-aggression to her and instead of letting it be a theoretical discussion she asked me to give some examples from my life. She asked how recently and often I felt I encountered micro-aggression and after thinking about it, I gave an example from the day before. It was a helpful conversation.)

Really internalized homophobia feels to me like a specific manifestation of shame and low self esteem. I feel like she really gets shame and low self-esteem quickly and intuitively so it works out.

What I feel like she doesn't get so well is the notion of depression as an illness rather than a feeling. She has had to really stretch sometimes to see where I'm coming from and I appreciate her effort but really, really wish she just got it. I've felt frustrated to tears about it at times. I've felt like finding a T who suffers from depression, someone who wouldn't say shite like "how you're feeling is a feeling... not a fact" that makes me feel like throttling her. We've worked on the issue and I stay with her because, apart from working well together in general, I appreciate how much effort she makes to get it and how much she cares about my frustration and sadness when I feel she doesn't. But I feel like in a perfect world she'd just know.

It sounds like that's how you're feeling about having a queer T. Various aspects of our lives, experiences and identities need specific kinds of understanding and care at different times. Right now, for you, sounds like it's important to have a T who just knows queer.

I think this is accurate, for whatever potentially irrational reason. Like I remember certain things that I've brought up with current T, who is queer, like a specific example when I brought an essay to a writing instructor who is not current mentor figure (this experience reminded me to always, always, always bring essays to mentor figure!). The essay was on the ethics of representation of marginalized groups in the media, and I had a few paragraphs on The L Word, and the writing instructor was sort of uncomfortable with it and started treating me differently(ish) afterwards and it was making me crazy because I couldn't tell if this was all in my head and my own sensitivities or if this was actually a thing.

And T just totally understood this situation, 100%, and it felt really good to me. Even though she was saying probably the same things a straight T would have said, the intent(?) was different and I just read the whole situation differently and it was reassuring. She was pretty much like, "Yeah, this is what we have to go through as gay people, and yeah, it sucks, and yeah, you can never really know if it's them or you or both, and yeah, it's tough, and I get it." (And we discussed the importance of bringing things to mentor figure instead to avoid situations like this, because mentor figure is queer and would never have that kind of reaction. Self preservation.)

Also, I'm probably overreacting to the possibility of frequent social meetings with potential queer Ts...I mean, maybe at Pride or the queer film festivals and stuff like that, but that would sort of be the equivalent to running into T at the Santa Claus Parade, right? I could ask about their connections to my school and whether they frequently attend events that might pose a problem and whether they have connections with my mentoring program or the queer organizations I want to volunteer with next term, and discuss what would happen if we met socially or if we happened to have mutual acquaintances, and then make my decision based on that...I wouldn't want a T who knows mentor figure, for example; that would be really awkward.

But it's not like I'm in a small town or something; I'm in a big city and other than the big events, there's no reason to assume a queer T and I would cross paths on a regular basis. It's just this experience that is making me very anxious.

[Favorite Jeans]

Originally Posted by HazelGirl

I hear you judging yourself and others who need therapy. It wasn't your fault that you had terrible parents who messed up the whole attachment thing. And you shouldn't be blamed or judged for needing to repair it. In fact, you should be applauded for being brave enough to face it and get the help you need.

Yeah, there's that, but I get Yearning on this one. I'm generally pretty therapy positive and don't have a lot of shame about going. But I see my T outside of session (not deliberately but for eg walking on the street, at the store) often because we live very close to one another and I often get this terrible vulnerable feeling when I see her. She knows all my needy, gross, infantile feelings. I would also find it hard to feel competent at a meeting if she were there. Not because therapy itself is shameful but because I need to able to shut off the feelings of shame that come up in therapy so I can function in the rest of my life.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Favorite Jeans

Yeah, there's that, but I get Yearning on this one. I'm generally pretty therapy positive and don't have a lot of shame about going. But I see my T outside of session (not deliberately but for eg walking on the street, at the store) often because we live very close to one another and I often get this terrible vulnerable feeling when I see her. She knows all my needy, gross, infantile feelings. I would also find it hard to feel competent at a meeting if she were there. Not because therapy itself is shameful but because I need to able to shut off the feelings of shame that come up in therapy so I can function in the rest of my life.

Definitely this. Like if I saw current T somewhere, it would probably make me feel vulnerable and uncomfortable, but with a past T, I ran into her a few times over the four years we saw each other and I didn't mind because our sessions really felt more like social visits to me a lot of the time; we would sit and chat about the books she was reading or I would tell her about school and we never got to do any real work, ergo no vulnerability.

But with this situation - it's that someone who I don't know well but who I see a lot knows this part of me that is maybe shameful or maybe just incredibly private. And also that maybe I'm embarrassed for not knowing it was her...but how could I have known it was her? I didn't know her last name and we've never sat down and had a discussion; we've only ever really spoken in passing and she's never mentioned that she is also a T. But I guess it's just not knowing how to act around her now...

I know, the best advice is "act normal," but what if she doesn't, or what if I can't because my discomfort is so strong?

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by blur

I actually think you would be wise to stick with your current T, not primarily for the reasons you are mentioning here although they do contribute, but because I think you need a T with really firm boundaries. Jmo. If you need more support then you could find additional support like with the DBT group.

I would agree with this if I wasn't leaving every session feeling more hopeless and hating myself even more than ever, at least recently, and wondering whether there's even any point to it anymore. I want to stick with current T for now, but I also want to see what else is out there.

Aside from which, it was current T who suggested (multiple times) last week that I might need a new T instead of or in addition to her. And the most frustrating part about that was that she said it once; I said, "Okay, I've thought about it and I will continue to think about it," but she kept saying it, over and over again, even when I told her that her telling me I might need a new therapist felt like abandonment. She was like, "I'm sorry you feel that way, but I wouldn't be behaving ethically if I didn't keep telling you." And I was like, "I heard already. I told you I'd think about it. Let's stop talking about it now."

But no, she kept bringing it up intermittently throughout the session and then at the end asked me if I still wanted an appointment with her next week. That to me was the last straw, so I told her yes I wanted an appointment next week, but I would also do as she suggested and consider other options.

The funny thing is, having two Ts would be less expensive than having T and the DBT group...

[IndestructibleGirl]

Hmm. I have to say I think perhaps you are approaching this the wrong way. Almost in the same way some people go looking for a romantic partner with a 'shopping list'? While of course there are some things that are non-negotiable, I think the 'list' you are drawing up is going to exclude many excellent therapists who you could do great work with.

I don't see the harm in educating a therapist about your world. I'm queer (anthrosexual, masochistic, polyamorous) and while of course I don't actually know for sure what my therapist's orientations are, I have only heard her speak of male partners so I think she's straight. It doesn't matter that we have radically different lifestyles and needs. As two human beings, we click well, and as such I never feel weird or misunderstood talking about the choices I make or the preferences that are hardwired into me.

I love labels as a shorthand for immediately understanding that I have something in common with another person, but I think it's really important to not get bogged down in the labels, and not to afford them maximum importance. So, you could think on being open to a therapist who doesn't market themselves as queer.

I'm rambling, but basically what I mean is, find the therapist who is the human being that fits you, and the rest will fall into place. I really do believe that.

[Yearning0723]

Sometimes coming on PC is all kinds of confusing with all the contradictory advice...get a new T; stay with old T. You need a warmer T; you need a boundaried T. You should go with your gut re a queer T; you should be equally open to a straight T. Your T was wrong; you were wrong; both of you were wrong; everything was wrong. It's so complicated that sometimes I don't even want to do this whole therapy thing anymore...it feels like everything is just getting screwed up. There are no answers; having a queer T will suck, having a straight T will suck, having a boundaried T will suck, having a warm T will suck, staying with old T already sucks, getting a new T will probably suck even more...

I don't have the answers, I don't know how to find the answers, and I feel completely incompetent and like I'm just ruining everything all the time always. My anxiety is getting worse, not better, and I don't know if it's this T or therapy itself or my current situation in life right now or if it's just that there's something wrong with me. Probably the latter.