I've been having some issues with my current therapist (CT) around my feelings about being just a client to him. We have talked through and mostly resolved it, but I have some lingering hesitation about continuing therapy with him. I think it would be a huge relief to start over with someone different, and this time hold on harder to the boundaries in my head -- to always, always keep in mind that this other person is not really emotionally invested in me and doesn't actually care about me in real life. On the other hand, the thought of starting over and rehashing some of these things and having the other person get family with my issues seemed kind of overwhelming.

I met with another T yesterday -- let's call him PT for potential therapist. PT seemed like he understood me pretty quickly. He was really astute and observant. He made connections quickly, like when I talked about my mind going 'dark places,' he immediately knew I was talking about being suicidal, AND remained calm about it, and didn't go into panic mode, asking me if I have a plan, etc. He also seemed to really understand where I am coming from with CT. He said that he thought the therapeutic boundaries had become somewhat blurred, but not in a boundary violation way. He discussed how it can be therapeutically helpful for the T to discuss his feelings for a client, and it was very helpful in moving me forward in addressing issues, but my T having done so was what was continued to this kicked in the gut feeling I was having about the whole just a client discussion. He had picked up on the fact I have significant intimacy issues, and we discussed how those had improved a lot during therapy with CT, and he said he thought I would likely to continue to improve if I remain in therapy with CT. HOWEVER, he said he was also sure that if I continue with CT, I will periodically have to contend with the that kicked in the gut feeling when I bump up against the fact that I am always and forever just a client, and CT keeps me in those whole separate category in his head and never lets himself think about me in real life.

PT said that starting therapy with someone new would lead me in a very different direction in therapy. He said the intimacy issues probably would not come up (probably because I kept emphasizing how I was going to hold on hard to the idea that this was a professional thing only and never let myself lose sight of that). He said I already knew the pros and cons of changing and just needed to figure out if I wanted to continue the direction I am, working on the intimacy thing as well as the trauma issues, or change focus to be primarily the trauma issues.

So, I don't know what I want. I don't know what to do. Not seeing CT seems like it would be a huge loss and I will miss him terribly. I know that my relationships have improved dramatically as I become better equipped to deal with emotions and being close to people. Seeing PT seems like it would be a huge relief and a chance to be on more equal footing emotionally. Also, I think it would be easier to tell him some of the truly horrifying things because I am not at all invested in what he thinks of me. Seeing both isn't really an option for financial reasons.

If anyone has managed to read this huge book of a post and wants to share thoughts, experiences or suggestions, I would welcome that.

[Leah123]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

I think it would be a huge relief to start over with someone different, and this time hold on harder to the boundaries in my head -- to always, always keep in mind that this other person is not really emotionally invested in me and doesn't actually care about me in real life.

Are you sure of that?
It sounds like defensiveness.
Has he told her you has no investment in you and doesn't care about you?
Is your job not part of your real life?
Just because it's his vocation doesn't mean it's insignificant to him or that you are insignificant to him.

P.S. Later in your thread it sounds again like you're defending yourself from vulnerability which can be very healing, when you talk about wanting to be on equal footing and shy away from intimacy issues. It's hard for me to conceive of doing trauma work without having an intimate connection building. Trauma, unless we're talking due to a natural disaster or something, is a most intimate relationship wound, and I find my healing is about having an intimate healthy therapeutic relationship: I can't separate the healing from the intimacy past a certain point at least.

Originally Posted by Leah123

Are you sure of that?
It sounds like defensiveness.
Has he told her you has no investment in you and doesn't care about you?
Is your job not part of your real life?
Just because it's his vocation doesn't mean it's insignificant to him or that you are insignificant to him.

P.S. Later in your thread it sounds again like you're defending yourself from vulnerability which can be very healing, when you talk about wanting to be on equal footing and shy away from intimacy issues. It's hard for me to conceive of doing trauma work without having an intimate connection building. Trauma, unless we're talking due to a natural disaster or something, is a most intimate relationship wound, and I find my healing is about having an intimate healthy therapeutic relationship: I can't separate the healing from the intimacy past a certain point at least.

PT did talk about vulnerability and how it can be good for some reason. I cannot seem to remember what he said about that no matter how hard I try.

[Leah123]

Well, in one way, having a good experience discussing your trauma and receiving caring support and skilled guidance creates a corrective experience.

Of course you can't undo the original experience, but you can re-experience it to a certain extent by sharing it and sharing how it troubles you, and the healing is in doing that with the right person, having a witness, skilled guide and sympathetic presence to share your story.

That does involve being vulnerable, which is very very hard for me and many, but necessary and healing when done with the right person/people.

[rainbow8]

I'm not sure what you should do, but when you talk about how hard you're going to try to keep the boundaries and remember you're "just" a client( I disagree with that idea anyway), it strikes a chord with me. My pattern. Anyone's pattern, for that matter. Part of me wanted to repeat it with4 Ts, but for sure I was NOT going to let it happen with my current T. You know the rest of my story.

Until we work through why we repeat ourselves, it's likely to happen again, even if we try hard. I'm talking about feelings for Ts, not behavior we're changing through our therapy.

I could be wrong of course, but wanted to warn you about repeating patterns. I don't think changing the T changes our wants and needs.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

I had no choice but to find another therapist after seven years with the first one. The new one is a breath of fresh air compared to the old one. He's really helpful and sees things so differently and has such a different approach. It is SO SO much better than the old one. I never thought I could have this with a therapist especially after the disaster of the last one.

I think either way you decide would be fine, but starting over with someone CAN work. It can lift a HUGE weight off your shoulders. I don't necessarily think we repeat things over and over until we resolve them. Wishing you the best in whatever you decide. Just know that it can be ok to go to someone new.

[tinyrabbit]

If you have issues, they ARE going to come up.

If you have issues with what you mean to a therapist, they ARE going to come up.

The direction comes from you, not your T.

I don't know why PT is trying to predict anything about what will happen in therapy for you with him or anyone else.

CT does care about you. Sure, it's a job, but as my T says you can't just care about someone for an hour a week. On the other hand the limitations of therapy need to be acknowledged and, where necessary, grieved over.

I don't think you do know the pros and cons. I also don't think these are the right reasons to switch T.

"I think it would be a huge relief to start over with someone different, and this time hold on harder to the boundaries in my head -- to always, always keep in mind that this other person is not really emotionally invested in me and doesn't actually care about me in real life."

I don't know. I get the feeling you are trying to run away from apparently a very good therapist because you are trying to escape something that I'm not really sure is possible to run away from.

[swimmergirl]

MKAC.................you don't me know me but I have followed your story off and on. A lot of what you have shared in the past has helped me quite a bit with my relationship with my own T and I value that so much. How long have you seen your CT?

Of course in the end you do whatever you feel is best. I honestly think you are running from a great opportunity. It took you a long time to build up what you have with CT, a lot of risk on both your part and his part. You are mistaken when you say he doesn't love you or that you are not special to him. It is possible for a T to love someone and keep them as just a client............simply because if he didn't keep you as a client it would change the dynamics of your relationship and thus hurt your ability to further heal and make changes. He means a lot to you, from what you have shared, and I believe you mean a lot to him as well. He took a personal risk to share his feelings about you, with you, knowing it would help your therapy along...........which it did. My own T has done the same with me and as someone who has intimacy issues myself, it has made a world of difference.

I know it is hard to reconcile the money stuff. I think your T didn't handle that in the best way. However, your PT is wrong when he says your intimacy issues will not surface there. It is impossible in my mind for therapy to work(unless you are not wanting to deal with the intimacy issues) unless I mean something to my T and vice versa. My T's willingness to talk about his feelings for me has made all the difference in the world to my therapy. I believe your CTs willingness to do that with you has as well. He will let you email him(as you don't abuse it), he has discussed extremely personal things with you that other Ts would run away from because I believe he knew it would be beneficial to your therapy(like whether he found you sexually attractive and the whole I love you thing).

You have said you will only remain "just a client" to him. I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that............but it sounds to me like you are feeling vulnerable in the relationship and that with your past experiences may be clouding things a little? Which is a wonderful opportunity to explore all of that in therapy(even though I know it is super scary and hurts like hades).

Honestly I would urge you to stay with CT. I was lucky enough to find one like yours for myself, although he doesn't share the looks of John Stewart, and his willingness to openly talk about "our relationship" has done wonders not only for my therapy but all the other relationships in my life as well. I have never experienced anything like it, not even in my very long marriage, and sometimes we just need to go with it and not overthink things too much.

Good luck in your journey and thanks so much for sharing, I really can relate and I wish you all the happiness and success you deserve.

[TheShins]

Hi MKAC -

I don't post much at all, but I felt the need to respond to your post. I can really relate to what you're going through. I've been with my current therapist for 5 years and struggle in a big way with intimacy and vulnerability. And, for about a year therapy with him was very, very difficult and painful for a variety of reasons. Whenever he helped me with life issues, he was great. But, I was struggling with our "relationship" and attempts to talk with him about it only made it worse. His answer was always to talk about it - but for me, talking it wasn't working. He made some mis-steps like your CT made in what he verbalized. I felt powerless and stuck and like he didn't have the ability to help me since he would always fall back on "the only way is through it by talking about it".

Anyway, I finally decided that although therapy was difficult, it really wasn't supposed to be THAT difficult and painful. I knew there was value in working through this with him but felt helpless and stuck. So, I saw a consult T. (And believe me, I struggled mightily with setting aside how insane I felt seeing a second therapist to talk about my relationship with my current therapist. I felt one step away from a Woody Allen movie!) At first I just saw her only a couple of times and it helped. But about 2 months ago I felt like there was still stuff to work through so for now I'm seeing her regularly - every week or two weeks. She helps me process my reaction to what he says that I find hurtful in a way I just can't do with him in real time when I'm hurt by something that he's said. And after she and I have discussed it, generally I can find a way to communicate what is happening with me to my current T. I'm surprised at how productive it has been to see consult T to work on things with current T.

I fantasized a lot about just leaving my T and starting with someone new. But, I do believe those intimacy issues would've just follow me. And, I knew as much relief as it would bring, it would be very, very painful to stop seeing him abruptly.

So I don't know if you feel like seeing two therapists at once is even an option - or something you'd be interested in trying. But for me it has really been helpful in a lot of ways. Even if it hadn't worked out as well as it did, I knew I would benefit in two ways no matter what - 1) it is extremely helpful (and a relief) to discuss openly the feelings I'm struggling with regarding current T with someone who truly gets it and 2) I knew if I decided it was time to move on and see a new T, I could feel more confident that decision wasn't reactive and was well informed.

I'm not sure that this is helpful or the kind of answer you were looking for because it isn't one of the two options you presented. Whatever you decide, I hope it gets better quickly. I understand all too well the feelings you've described in your post and it is its own unique, horrible kind of pain.

[Petra5ed]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

not really emotionally invested in me and doesn't actually care about me in real life.

Did your therapist actually say this?!? If so, time to move on immediately.

But, I'm guessing he didn't say this. The fact that you're a client to him and nothing more most likely means he's just saying what he's legally required to. There cant be dual relationships, so he cant say you're his friend without violating the ethics rules. Can you ask him if he is emotionally invested in you? Maybe hearing his answer to that will change your mind.

[stopdog]

I actually think you might want to give the new guy a bit of a go for a bit. I have never felt any sort of attraction to a therapist, so I don't know what it would be like but I imagine it would not help me if I did. I actually believe you could work with new guy for a while on the past trauma and then go back to CT if you wanted after that. I have seen them have that sort of thing occur.

Here's my take....

If your feelings for your T are in line with previous feelings for other similar type people in your past, I think it's worth trying to work through. I wouldn't want to keep repeating painful patterns of attachment if it could be helped. However, I am not convinced that working through even exists, or won't take a ridiculously long time to accomplish. Or that you won't re experience the painful loss when you have to leave therapy.

Look, there's only so much suffering a person can take. If you're being torn apart inside with no sign of getting better, sometimes it's best to distance yourself and find a T that you can form a different type of attachment to. I think this forum attracts a lot of people who feel really strongly towards their Ts, but I know other people who have more casual relationships in therapy.

I wasn't going to post it this way, but I actually termed with T1 today. My feelings for him were making me miserable and this has been the most tumultuous year of my life. T2 is female, and I feel much more stable and comfortable discussing things. I believe that certain personality combinations can make therapy too intense, and although some might say I'm running away, I felt in my heart I was doing the healthy and best thing for me. I definitely still have father issues, but I no longer believe I need to recreate the experience with a T. Grieving the loss will have to be enough.

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I'm not sure what you should do, but when you talk about how hard you're going to try to keep the boundaries and remember you're "just" a client( I disagree with that idea anyway), it strikes a chord with me. My pattern. Anyone's pattern, for that matter. Part of me wanted to repeat it with4 Ts, but for sure I was NOT going to let it happen with my current T. You know the rest of my story.

Until we work through why we repeat ourselves, it's likely to happen again, even if we try hard. I'm talking about feelings for Ts, not behavior we're changing through our therapy.

I could be wrong of course, but wanted to warn you about repeating patterns. I don't think changing the T changes our wants and needs.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Rainbow, this isn't an issue that has come up with Ts I've had in the past. So far, it is pretty much exclusive to this particular T. Although, I admit that in my life, my history has been to be in relationships where I love the other person more than that person loves me. The other person never seems to place as much value on my needs or wants as I place on theirs. THAT is the repeating pattern.

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

"I think it would be a huge relief to start over with someone different, and this time hold on harder to the boundaries in my head -- to always, always keep in mind that this other person is not really emotionally invested in me and doesn't actually care about me in real life."

I don't know. I get the feeling you are trying to run away from apparently a very good therapist because you are trying to escape something that I'm not really sure is possible to run away from.

I acknowledge that I am trying to get away from the pain of being in a relationship where I care more for the other person than he or she cares for me. I am tired of it. It seems more like self preservation than running.

Swimmergirl and TheShins, thank you so much for posting and sharing with me. I appreciate knowing I am not alone, so very much!

TheShins, seeing two people just isn't really financially feasible for me right now.

Stopdog, I do think the element of being attracted to him throws a wrench in the works for me. The other guy is not physically attractive to me at all. I think that will be really helpful for me and make the intimacy issues, if they reappear with him, a lot easier to bear.

So this situation does repeat the pattern for me of forever and always being in relationships with other people who do not feel as much for me as I feel for them. The majority of my primary relationships (family, spouse, certain friends) are with people who do not make me a priority. So, this situation came on the heels of other people in my life prioritizing other peoples' feelings over mine, or refusing to be on my side even in clear cut situations where the other person was clearly in the wrong and being completely unreasonable. I was already stinging from those situations, and this seemed like just one more relationship in which I love the other person and he doesn't really love me (even as a friend). And I tend to never walk away from these relationships. I am very loyal and if I consider someone a friend, I just don't walk away, even when the other person is clearly not as invested as I am. I may become more emotionally reserved from the person, but I stay in the relationship and I am there for the other person if he or she needs me.

T and I talked last week, and I think I understand a bit more clearly that he does care for me, but compartmentalizes his life and his feelings. I understand that and realize it may be necessary for him in order to be able to be a therapist long term, but this also seems like it would be an exercise in self care to walk away from yet another relationship of the same sort that has plagued me all my life. If I never get the sort of relationship where someone really loves me (in real life, not therapy love), and really has my back, why keep replaying this scenario? Why not walk away and go find someone who can understand me, but from whom I can keep more easily keep my emotional distance? As Clementine said, at this point, it just feels like I am pointlessly re-enacting a painful attachment pattern. Leaving would be breaking the pattern for me.

[mixedup_emotions]

((( MKAC )))

Leaving sounds like an incredibly brave but painful move. Yet, I can also see how painful it is to stay. I'd imagine there's benefits to both directions. I wonder if you could continue with the new T for a while - and just see current T once a month - until you feel more secure in a direction.

[InRealLife45]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

I've been having some issues with my current therapist (CT) around my feelings about being just a client to him. We have talked through and mostly resolved it, but I have some lingering hesitation about continuing therapy with him. I think it would be a huge relief to start over with someone different, and this time hold on harder to the boundaries in my head -- to always, always keep in mind that this other person is not really emotionally invested in me and doesn't actually care about me in real life. On the other hand, the thought of starting over and rehashing some of these things and having the other person get family with my issues seemed kind of overwhelming.

I met with another T yesterday -- let's call him PT for potential therapist. PT seemed like he understood me pretty quickly. He was really astute and observant. He made connections quickly, like when I talked about my mind going 'dark places,' he immediately knew I was talking about being suicidal, AND remained calm about it, and didn't go into panic mode, asking me if I have a plan, etc. He also seemed to really understand where I am coming from with CT. He said that he thought the therapeutic boundaries had become somewhat blurred, but not in a boundary violation way. He discussed how it can be therapeutically helpful for the T to discuss his feelings for a client, and it was very helpful in moving me forward in addressing issues, but my T having done so was what was continued to this kicked in the gut feeling I was having about the whole just a client discussion. He had picked up on the fact I have significant intimacy issues, and we discussed how those had improved a lot during therapy with CT, and he said he thought I would likely to continue to improve if I remain in therapy with CT. HOWEVER, he said he was also sure that if I continue with CT, I will periodically have to contend with the that kicked in the gut feeling when I bump up against the fact that I am always and forever just a client, and CT keeps me in those whole separate category in his head and never lets himself think about me in real life.

PT said that starting therapy with someone new would lead me in a very different direction in therapy. He said the intimacy issues probably would not come up (probably because I kept emphasizing how I was going to hold on hard to the idea that this was a professional thing only and never let myself lose sight of that). He said I already knew the pros and cons of changing and just needed to figure out if I wanted to continue the direction I am, working on the intimacy thing as well as the trauma issues, or change focus to be primarily the trauma issues.

So, I don't know what I want. I don't know what to do. Not seeing CT seems like it would be a huge loss and I will miss him terribly. I know that my relationships have improved dramatically as I become better equipped to deal with emotions and being close to people. Seeing PT seems like it would be a huge relief and a chance to be on more equal footing emotionally. Also, I think it would be easier to tell him some of the truly horrifying things because I am not at all invested in what he thinks of me. Seeing both isn't really an option for financial reasons.

If anyone has managed to read this huge book of a post and wants to share thoughts, experiences or suggestions, I would welcome that.

I think it sounds like you are ready to leave.

Personally, jumping out of the nest seems like something I could never do willingly, that I'd have to be pushed out in order to leave.

If you can do it bc you know its the best thing for your growth, I commend you for the strength to do so.

[ListenMoreTalkLess]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

As Clementine said, at this point, it just feels like I am pointlessly re-enacting a painful attachment pattern. Leaving would be breaking the pattern for me.

It feels like you are not being reactive, but attempting to intentionally DO something by leaving or staying with your current T. That suggests that you really can't, as other people have suggested, make a mistake when you are in this thoughtful and intentional place. First you should feel good about being here.

I have had the attachment pattern that you describe-- I may still have it now with some people. For me, it seemed like it was a holdover from the dynamics of my FOO and the CSA that was a part of those dynamics. That's kind of the heart of CSA in at least one way, that the person doing the abusing is supposed to put your needs above their own, and they obviously don't.

What I realized is that I needed to walk away from at least some of those relationships in my real life. I don't know if that is what you need to do, to use therapy to walk away from the IRL relationships that are unbalanced. If you leave your T and consider that "breaking the pattern", I'm not so sure that it really is. I don't know that it's necessarily healthy to try to corral your feelings with a new T to "break the pattern" as opposed to letting them run naturally and being comfortable with them, whatever they are.

[growlycat]

This is a tough one…

I've followed many of your past threads and I feel like your bond with your longtime T is very real. It's as if he is suddenly backing down from how important you are too him…maybe he scared himself? I have a hard time believing your T thinks of you in a compartmentalized way. Somehow it is all reminiscent of that Aesop fable, the Fox and the Grapes. (fox desires grapes, is thwarted in his attempts to get them, denies ever wanting them etc.) If you aren't too hurt by his boundary-reinforcing, staying may be feasible .

However, a new T does offer a new perspective. I think it might be impossible to not get attached to someone you are seeing as a T. The old stuff is bound to come up and you may be right back where you were.

Ugh, this probably isn't helping you. Just my observations. And my window is pretty small!

[tinyrabbit]

MKAC, I think if you do decide to leave you should meet with at least one more potential new T. I'm a bit concerned that PT appears to be telling you what you want to hear and encouraging you to believe you can leave your pain and patterns in CT's office. An alarm bell rang for me when he started predicting how therapy would go. That's not something he can or should try to predict. Ditto whether, or how, your pain will follow you.

[feralkittymom]

Hi MKAC,

I'm going to respond before reading any of the replies which is something I rarely do because I want to keep my thoughts clear in my head.

I think you're struggling with a few different issues here. The good news is that I think there are several possible approaches, and they all have potential for positive outcomes.

It's good that you worked through this rupture with CT. Yes, there is a lingering echo of those feelings that may never go away. I'm not so sure that is a bad thing, providing you don't misinterpret those feelings in a way that is damaging, because it sounds as though those feelings come from the very intimacy issues you struggle with.

But to go forward from here has benefits either way. If you stay with CT, you have the benefit of hitting the ground running, but more than that, you have a potentially stronger relationship now because of the rupture. The fact that you have established intimacy doesn't permit you to run away from those feelings; I see this as a positive. If you want to work through the intimacy issues fully, I believe you can best do so by NOT convincing yourself to remain in the "I'm just a client" bubble.

The challenge is that without the distance of that bubble, it does make it more daunting to get deeply into the trauma work. But I guess the ultimate benefit is also that going deeply into the trauma while experiencing yourself as loved in this relationship can also reap the most satisfying rewards in my experience. I'm not sure that I could have healed as deeply if my trauma had remained solely "mine." I needed to have both the traumatic knowledge and the emotional pain equally shared and borne by someone else with me in relationship and experience that relationship not just survive, but grow beyond it. I do think when the relationship is parental, rather than romantic, it is an easier shift for both client and T. But your T seems up to the challenge if you can find a way to accept the genuineness of the "therapy love" relationship.

On the other hand, working with PT primarily on trauma sounds like a swifter progress. But can you do that while keeping your innermost trust under wraps? It feels like a somehow incomplete healing to me. But I wonder if it wouldn't be helpful to see him exactly for the purpose of getting whatever you perceive as the worst out? Get it on the table, spoken, examined so as to get some objectivity about it?

Would it be possible that doing so would allow you to return to CT able to revisit those aspects that seem too painful to visit currently? Would that help you to be more ready to risk and receive the kind of healing congruent with love that I think you fear?

[Nightlight]

My therapist has told me that she compartmentalises in this way...and at times it's been a really heart-breaking experience for me. I'm sorry you're struggling in this way...and I hope you make it out the other side of this a long long time before I do (because I don't seem to be in much of a hurry)!

Wow, I have received such amazing, well thought out and considerate responses. Thank you all so much! I have a lot to think about.

I did want to say, Tinyrabbit, that I appreciate your point, but in the context of what I was discussing with him, it sort of made sense that he would say that. I was emphasizing pretty hard about not maintaining an emotional boundary with a new T, so in response to that, he was predicting that intimacy would not be as much of an issue in a new T relationship (I presume he was talking about at least at first).

[tinyrabbit]

MKAC, please take as much or as little as you need from my post. I wish you luck in your thinking and hope you can find the right way forward for you. Hugs if you want them.