I have been struggling lately to understand my gravitation and transference towards not only my T, but other male figures as well. At first I couldn't accept my transference with T. I assumed that since I had a bad relationship with my mom and a good relationship with my dad, then transference on my T didn't make sense since he's a male. Now I realize that obviously you can transfer your feelings towards a female figure onto your male T.

The issues surrounding my mother are endless. I have always been extremely close with my father. I theorize that this was the beginning of my black and white thinking-- my mother was "bad," my dad was "good." I came to idealize my dad. I still do, to this day. I cannot admit anger towards my father. I cannot admit his shortcomings. I know that these things exist, but I continue to use every defense mechanism possible so that I won't have to see my dad as "bad." At this point in my life, it is impossible for me to hold multiple feelings for my father at the same time. I am not ready to accept that anger and love can exist at the same time.

As I type this, I see how this plays out in transference with my T. I idealize my T. I am afraid to admit when I get mad at him. I don't want to "ruin" the relationship, I don't want to see him as "bad." And above all, I don't understand how I can have multiple feelings for him. I am scared because I got really mad at him last week. In 2 days, it will be time to admit this to him. I have never admitted anger to my father.

The really confusing part is this: I continue to seek out males and turn my back on females. It is easy to assume that I do this because of all the bad stuff surrounding my mother. I think that's part of it, but not all of it. How does my father fit into all of this? I have always had a thing with dating older guys-- In fact, there has only been one time when I had a boyfriend who was my age. And as far as all of my flings (there were a lot more of those than boyfriends), there were barely any that were near my age. It started out when I was 15, 16, 17--- being with guys who were 3 or 4 years older-- to when I was 19, 20-- being with men who were anywhere from 5 to 15 years older. I had an immediate distaste for any guy who was near my age.

I ended up marrying someone who is 7 years older-- and like my father in ways which are strikingly similar.

I reject female doctors, teachers, etc. When I find out that a professor for the upcoming semester is female, I immediately "hate her."

I understand that this does have a lot to do with the issues surrounding my mother. BUT-- there is more, I know there is. It's not just reject the female, accept the male-- I have always gravitated towards males, not just as a natural answer to rejecting the female. Why? This is where it gets confusing. I would think in a lot of situations people do this because they didn't have a father figure-- they are seeking one out, they crave this attention from older men. But this is not the case for me. I have always had a close relationship with my father. Yes, it is true that I idealize him. I also spend a fair amount of time surrounded in the anxiety that one day I am going to lose him. He is 65 now. I even did a free association journal the other day about this. Have I been unconsciously preparing myself all of these years for the loss of my dad? Trying to seek out a male figure prematurely? This could make sense. It's like the opposite of not having a dad-- being so attached to my dad that I am seeking out a male figure years before I could lose him? Or unconsciously believing I could lose him at any time-- that's it. Maybe I have been preparing myself. I have been noted as "prematurely mourning" my father-- talking about him as if he's already dead. Talking about him as if he has a terminal illness. He does not. But I am so scared to lose him.

I wonder if the connections I made are true? Am I reaching too far? I don't know. I normally trust my unconscious-- it will let me know if the conclusions I draw are wrong-- something will just "not sit well" and I will continue to search until I hit upon something that does. And if my conclusion settles, then I know it's right. With this-- it's too new, and contains too much painful stuff for me to hold onto it for too long. It's one that I am going to explore in pieces. And it's going to be damn near impossible to talk about it with T because I am in danger of crying when I talk about it. I have never cried in front of him. I want him to think I'm strong, tough, smart. Just like my dad thinks.

These days, I carefully pick and choose what I tell my dad about my mental health stuff. He has seen me at my worst, when I lived at home with him and my mom. He is proud at how far I've come, and I do not want to disappoint him in any way. I do not want to upset him or make his stress levels higher.

[Perna]

It's a complicated thing. While reading your post I was thinking your father had all the "power" and you may not "idolize" him but be afraid of him. We often do opposite-seeming things when there's too much to deal with as children. Your mother wasn't "good enough" so you turned to your father; what if your father doesn't want you/rejects you? You have to be "good" for him and idolize him to keep him on your good side. Your therapist is just like your father in that respect; has the power and could "throw you out."

The answer, of course, is to take back our personal power; no one else should have that "control" over you. Seeing people for who they are -- your father is just a "man" as is your T -- and not as protection from "bad" mothers or from being abandoned, etc. is the goal. Neither your mother nor your father (nor your T :-) are part of your "current" struggles in life now that you're an adult. That's what the end results will be, the comfort of being here-and-now without the heavy transference and memories weighing you down and pulling you sideways :-)

Pinksoil I agree with Perna's post. You know I always felt I idolised my adoptive father too,. Then one day I was talking about my fears of wasps and bees and remembered how my father would catch them and chase me with them.

I was all of a sudden sad that my father did this, that he wasn't the caring safe person I'd always believed him to be.

They say its not until a client is well into the therapy process do they let go of the idolised father figure. If indeed they ever do, hence we have a world that idolises "gods".

I see what you guys mean... I definitely saw him as having power, a heroic quality, if you will... But I was never afraid of him. I am afraid to disappoint him. I am afraid to lose him. I am afraid to let him know if I am angry with him. However, I don't see this as being afraid of him. With all of my issues aside, my dad and I really do have a wonderful relationship. We always have. I think a lot of my fear of losing him comes not only from the obvious, but from the fear of being left with only my mother. That would suck. No other way of putting it. In childhood and adulthood-- that. would. suck.

[lauren_helene]

Pinksoil, I agree with Perna too. I got the same sense of power that she referred to when I was reading your post. My T and I have discussed this and he feels my dad and those unmet needs are the biggest issue I have.

For most of the first year with T though, I never said a bad word about my dad. It was mostly mom and other women like my boss. Once the transference took hold on me and I started frantically researching the subject, talking to T and you gals, I've realized that this is what I do in my personal life with other men and it is derived from my dad. The father-daughter relationship is far more important than I ever realized.

I say talk to your T about it. I haven't cried either in front of mine but I wish I could. Maybe it would advance me further personally.

I think since your last session, you have had many many insights! This is good but I know it is painful.

[sidony]

Hey Pinksoil,

You and I are awfully similar (as I've said before). I totally idealize my therapist and haven't yet managed to be mad at him. I also seek out men in life and avoid women. My mother wasn't evil at all, but she was overbearing and didn't listen to me. If she disagreed with something I said, she always assumed that I'd just been "led astray" by people -- that I'm weak-willed or something and would never have thought whatever it was that she disagreed with on my own. My father was kind and calm, but we were not close. He loved me, but he is not a very emotionally available person. Best example I can come up with: If he's away on a trip and he sends me a letter -- it's always just a report on what's going on -- like where they went for supper, what time they met someone, etc. It's like reading a day-planner. He's never expressed emotions at all other than through buying me things, paying for my college, etc. That's how he expresses love. I've seen him lose his temper maybe 2 or 3 times in my life, and then he just yelled for a few minutes. I've never seen him cry. He always seemed to be a bit absent-minded -- you know, preoccupied with other things. He's older now and experiencing cognitive decline (has trouble remembering words or keeping the thread of a conversation). But anyway, we weren't close. I think maybe men have always been a mystery to me and maybe that's why I try to get closer to them. Like I already figured out that I can't be close to women because I see them as overbearing (do you know that the thought of talking to a woman therapist is actually revolting to me?). Maybe I try to create what I think the father-daughter relationship should have been, I don't know.

Your ideas sound really well thought out -- it doesn't seem like such a reach to me, the idea of creating a premature replacement, etc. Yeah it does sound like it will be really hard to talk to your therapist about this stuff. If you manage it I think it'll make for some really intense sessions.

I've never cried in therapy either. I told my therapist that I waited until I could cope with my breakup (what originally drove me to therapy) before showing up because I couldn't stand the thought of just coming into his office and bawling. I was always struck by his reaction to that -- that he would have admired my being so emotionally open if I had done that. That seems so weird to me. But maybe that's the way your therapist would see it too. As a breed they seem to have a different take on emotions....

Sidony

[lauren_helene]

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sidony said:

I've never cried in therapy either. I told my therapist that I waited until I could cope with my breakup (what originally drove me to therapy) before showing up because I couldn't stand the thought of just coming into his office and bawling. I was always struck by his reaction to that -- that he would have admired my being so emotionally open if I had done that. That seems so weird to me. But maybe that's the way your therapist would see it too. As a breed they seem to have a different take on emotions....

Sidony

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Sidony, I'm glad your T said that. He is in a sense telling you it's safe and okay to be so open with him. I think that is so important. Perhaps that is why I haven't done it yet either.

Besides, what will crying with my T accomplish? He isn't going to come over, hug me and say it'll be okay is he? I feel stupid crying and have him sitting there staring at me...why or why can't we sit side by side! Wouldn't that be easier? Well, it would for me.

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almeda24fan said:
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sidony said:

I've never cried in therapy either. I told my therapist that I waited until I could cope with my breakup (what originally drove me to therapy) before showing up because I couldn't stand the thought of just coming into his office and bawling. I was always struck by his reaction to that -- that he would have admired my being so emotionally open if I had done that. That seems so weird to me. But maybe that's the way your therapist would see it too. As a breed they seem to have a different take on emotions....

Sidony

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Sidony, I'm glad your T said that. He is in a sense telling you it's safe and okay to be so open with him. I think that is so important. Perhaps that is why I haven't done it yet either.

Besides, what will crying with my T accomplish? He isn't going to come over, hug me and say it'll be okay is he? I feel stupid crying and have him sitting there staring at me...why or why can't we sit side by side! Wouldn't that be easier? Well, it would for me.

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THAT'S IT! THANK YOU.

What's it, you ask?

I'll tell you!

I defend myself against crying in 2 different ways when I'm with T.

1. I am able to emotionally disconnect myself from *most* of the things I talk about. When I talk about certain stuff, I feel like I'm talking about a case study-- like these things happened to someone else.

2. There is some stuff I can't emotionally disconnect from. When I talk about this stuff, I just stop myself as soon as I feel like I'm getting too upset. I quickly build a wall, and refuse to let it down.

In both of these instances, I tell T that I won't cry with him there. I know that he wants me to. He wants me to take the walls down.

He always asks why it's not OK to cry in front of him. I never have much of an answer besides, "Because it's stupid." (Very intelligible, I know).

ALMEDA-- you have laid out the words I wanted to say, but never knew how. (That's what I said: THAT'S IT!!)

I'm not going to sit there across from him, completely vulnerable, crying like an %#@&#!. No way. There is too much space and openness in the room-- I feel exposed, there is space between us... It's not like if I cry, he is going to come over and close up some of that space. I will be left in the open space, crying.

[MissCharlotte]

Pinksoil,

Your post was interesting. First of all, you have to trust your conclusions. Because it's only your conclusions that really matter, right? However, I don't think it's so unusual for women to choose men who are a few years older than them. Really, 15, 16 17 year old girls are years ahead of boys their own age who are so immature. I have a strong regard for my T (a guy) but had a very difficult relationship with my father when he was alive. In fact, I hated him for many many years. I had a T who was a woman many years ago and never thought I would be able to work with a male T but now I am and it's a really good relationship. So, I am confused as well. Accepting the anger and love simultaneously is our biggest challenge and one that I am working on a well. For me, it is difficult to release the anger because I am afraid of it. By the way, I have never cried in front of my T either, feelng too embarrassed for that degree of emotion. Anyway, I hope to be able to someday.

maybe it is partly about a concern that your father isn't able to hold / accept some of your stronger feelings. that he isn't able to face his weaknesses and the like without it destroying him.

i've heard (take with a grain of salt) that the borderline dilemma arises from significant difficulty with the mother so that the person turns to their father but... the father is emotionally unavailable.

you said that you were close to your father. but i wonder how much of what was going on for you that you could actually share with him. i was always scared about hurting or destroying my father. i worried that i was too much for him to cope with i worried that he wouldn't know what to do with me. i worried that he would abandon me (which he did at any rate). i worried that he wouldn't be able to face up to some of his weaknesses (which i've realised in later years is a very real concern as he simply cannot face them).

i wonder if that has resulted in your attempting to be the 'good client' in order to have your therapists love and i wonder if that results in your not disclosing certain things for fear that he will be unable to cope / will abandon you.

i guess time is the answer. and taking little risks with disclosures. in my experience... there aren't many people in the world who seem to be able to respond to some of my intensities appropriately (without reacting from their insecurities) so my caution is well placed. but it might well be that there are many more people out there who are able to handle me than i think it is just that i don't really give them the opportunity to do so. and trying to keep it all pent up... might well be what results in them being even more intense (and less manageable for myself and others).

it can take a lot of practice to hold ambivalences in ones mind... literally. lists of pros and cons / strengths and weaknesses can help. i guess... we are all only human. and weaknesses and flaws... can be part of what is endearing about people.

[sunrise]

pinksoil, your post was so interesting with so many insights and possibilities. Do you sometimes feel that our time with our T's is so short as to be inadequate to sort out all this stuff? We think of so much stuff and then get one short hour to work it out a week. Totally not enough, IMO.

I completely agree--yes, it is possible to transfer feelings for your mother onto a male T. I"ve always felt that my main childhood issues were with my mother, who was openly hostile, angry, abusive. My dad was more of a shadowy background figure, emotionally unavailable but at least not overtly angry/hostile most of the time. I don't think I've yet transferred many feelings toward either my mother or my father onto my T. I think it is very therapeutic that you are able to use your transference in this way.

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The really confusing part is this: I continue to seek out males and turn my back on females. It is easy to assume that I do this because of all the bad stuff surrounding my mother. I think that's part of it, but not all of it. How does my father fit into all of this? I have always had a thing with dating older guys

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This could be me. But I have never felt it was because of my mother or father. I was very mature for my age as a teen and considered my same age boys to be so juvenile. My first lover at age 17 was a 35 year old man. It was a significant relationship in my life and after it was over, I tended to continue to seek out older men, perhaps trying to recreate this original May-December romance. But I never attributed this tendency of mine as being caused by my mother or father. So I am very interested in your analysis! BTW, my husband is only 8 years older than I am and I consider us to be "the same age" compared to so many of my other relationships.

In recent years I have begun to bond more easily with females. My T told me that this often happens to women in middle age and that it is a good thing. So it may come for you too when you are older. I did have a female therapist first and we did not bond. I strongly wanted a female as I felt a male might side with my husband as that was the presenting conflict. But I never formed a strong relationship with her. Then I switched to my current T, a male, and attached to him immediately and strongly. I just know how to attach to males better and more easily, so this makes sense. Maybe it is the same for you.

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I wonder if the connections I made are true? Am I reaching too far? I don't know. I normally trust my unconscious-- it will let me know if the conclusions I draw are wrong-- something will just "not sit well" and I will continue to search until I hit upon something that does.

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This sounds like what I do too, and it really works for me. Why not continue and let your unconscious guide? Access your dreams too if that is helpful. They are the way the unconscious sends us messages.

Please try to not be afraid to cry with your T. It's a problem right now for me too, but I know it is a good thing when I am able to do it. Part of my problem is that I often feel so dang good when I am with T because I like him so much that it is hard for the negative feelings of hurt to push through that curtain of positive feeling and manifest in crying. I think my T knows this. I don't know the solution. I don't want to stop feeling good with him just so I can cry.

Hang in there, pinksoil. I think you are making great progress. I really admire you for being able to get angry at your T, and I think you will get a lot of good mileage out of that.