[Rapunzel]

It is so much easier seeing her f2f. I thought that I would miss the email, and I do still want to e-mail her too (that's extremely limited now). When it was e-mail only, in between seeing her about every other month - less during the winter when roads weren't too good - I obsessed about therapy all the time. I always felt like I wasn't getting it right and she was frustrated with me all the time, and it would go on for weeks and weeks without getting any approval for anything that I did. It made me miserable, and it affected my whole life - everything that I did. I don't know if she understands how hard that was. I was so desperate for a sign of approval and for her to show that she cared about me or liked me or thought that I was worthwhile.

It is so much easier to feel that now that I see her in person every other week. I wish it were every week though, or even twice a week would be good (although I couldn't go that often). I can hang onto it for almost a week before I start forgetting everything. When I see her f2f I feel more like she actually cares about me. Even when it was email, part of me knew that she cared, I think, but most of me kept thinking that I was a bother and a nuisance to her and that she wished I would disappear.

What I am wondering if I should tell her (part of me wants to tell her and the rest is very afraid) is that last Fall when I was suicidal, it was all about her. She was going to terminate me because I wasn't getting anything right and I was getting so frustrated that she kept saying it was wrong (we were working on CBT exercises, but she's primarily psychodynamic and I don't really do so well with CBT, and I think she was trying to add a psychodynamic twist in there that I was missing). She apologized for not listening when what I kept saying was that I couldn't do it (I didn't say that in so many words, but I was begging for some approval and acceptance or even a bit of casual chat). I was suicidal because she is my last hope, and if she gives up on me, I will have nothing to hang on to and I will give up too.

The thing that pushed me towards the edge was not being able to get an appointment when I really needed to see her. I remember that I had an appointment on Oct. 7th, and had to change it because a class was changed to the 7th from the 14th in order to accomodate a classmate who was going to be out of town. I could have said no, that doesn't work for me, but I couldn't do that to my classmate - he would have had to fail the class if he had to miss that weekend. So I told T I couldn't go on the 7th, and said maybe the 14th would work. I assumed she would schedule me on the 14th, but she didn't respond, and when I finally asked her why she didn't give me a time, she said that I had never asked for an appointment and it was too late - she had none available. The next that she had was 3 weeks away, on November 4th. All these dates are stuck in my head now, probably permanently (I still remember that the first time I went to see her it took 3 hours and 17 minutes to get there, and that was more than 2 years ago now).

Since I had told my husband I had an appointment on the 14th, I was going to just not tell him that I didn't afterall, and I was going to drive out as if I was going, and just not make it. I had convinced myself that she would be glad that I was gone and wouldn't bother her anymore. I want to tell her that I was thinking that way (5 months ago now), and that I think that my thinking was really messed up, but I want her to confirm that I would have been wrong, and that she wouldn't have actually been relieved that she didn't have to bother with me anymore. I want to be reassured that she really does care about me. And I also want to confess that ever since then, when I drive over the mountains on the way to and from seeing her, the thought of having an "accident" keeps popping up even though that isn't something that I want to do now. It's a little bit scary, and I worry about what if she said she was going to terminate me again, and I'm not ready. It would be too easy, but I don't want to sound like I am threatening anything. I heard on the radio about that same highway being closed due to an accident one morning, and that was one of the thoughts that came up then too. I think it just takes a while for the idea to go away, but maybe it shouldn't take this long. I'm not doing so bad now.

What do you think? Should I tell her? I know she won't like it, and it is scary.

[__zh]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>

What do you think? Should I tell her? I know she won't like it, and it is scary.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> yes it is scary. but you're not in therapy to protect your T are you?

you're in therapy to deal with your issues, your stuff, your work, whatever it is you call the work you do in therapy..........you go for YOU, not for her, not for hubby or family but for you.

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but I want her to confirm that I would have been wrong, and that she wouldn't have actually been relieved that she didn't have to bother with me anymore. I want to be reassured that she really does care about me. And I also want to confess that ever since then, when I drive over the mountains on the way to and from seeing her, the thought of having an "accident" keeps popping up even though that isn't something that I want to do now.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> sounds like you're clear on what it is you want from her.

now on to the more challenging aspect....how to tell her such

you've identified your wants, now how are you going to go about getting those wants/needs met? and what are the plans if things don't go as you want above?

that's the kind of thing we'd be looking at.....how to tell, contingency plans for how to cope if response wasn't what we wanted/expected, etc.

good luck Rap. you've certainly been dedicated to your process and it is showing in your posts over time. hope you're able to see your growth too.

[withit]

Rampunzel, I hear you...Last time I felt suicidal was also because of t...I just wish t's would explore the transference there instead of rushing to be critical of our 'poor thinking' mechanisms....One time I felt suicidal when I called her for comfort, I was in terrible physical pain and turned to her for the comfort she always doled out so generously...but on that particular day I felt she shoo'ed me away, she said, 'call a friend...' not so much as 'I'm so sorry you're in pain...I'm here for you'....I hung up the phone and turned to my stack of o/d pills..
So now about you...telling her about the time you were suicidal...that it was about her...hmm...I wonder about that...you know your t better than I do....can you foresee her response/reaction? You say she is psychodynamic so I hope she would hear you out and empathize....what kind of response do you hope for? I would hope for a generous dose of empathy....
Say, would you like to take a risk?
I also find f2f a lot more beneficial...something about being the center of another's attention for just a short time....to be listened to without having to give anything back in return (except the monetary fees)...
Perhaps consider once weekly sessions f2f for now....might help you re-center yourself.

[sunrise]

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I always felt like I wasn't getting it right and she was frustrated with me all the time

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
She was going to terminate me because I wasn't getting anything right and I was getting so frustrated that she kept saying it was wrong

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Rapunzel, to me those statements sound a warning bell. Did your T tell you that you weren't getting it right and that she would therefore terminate you? Is there really a "right" and a "wrong" in therapy? How you were feeling was somehow not "right"? It just sounds very judgmental to me and not very therapeutic. I thought T's were trained not to do that.

I think you should share with her your feelings of not being right and not pleasing her. And the suicide stuff too, since it seems to spring from your feeling she didn't approve of you.

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I know she won't like it

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Therapy is for you, not for her.

Hang in there.

sunny

[sunrise]

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withit said:
You say she is psychodynamic so I hope she would hear you out and empathize....

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
This is such an interesting statement to me, withit. Do you think non-psychodynamic therapists would not hear a person out or empathize? What would they do instead?

[Rapunzel]

I've got a week and a half to go before I will see her again, so there is that much time to think about it. I've considered telling her about that the last few times I was there, but there were more pressing issues, and my mind went blank on this one.

I would hope that she would listen, and we could talk this through, and I could leave feeling like she does care. Then I would be fine. But if I felt rejected, or if she threatened to terminate, that would probably be dangerous and I'm not sure that letting me drive home would be smart. I would have to drive home though - there aren't any other good options.

Weekly sessions don't seem to be an option, for three reasons. My insurance would run out; and driving out there and back even though I have moved and it isn't quite as far now, it's still 7 hours for driving time and session time, and I don't have that much time every week; and her schedule fills up too - she couldn't get me in every week. Because of scheduling issues and having to cancel once for my brother's funeral, I had to wait 3 weeks once last month, and then would have had to wait 3 weeks again except that I took a day off during the week once (3 weeks is way too long). She couldn't fit me in more than she is right now.

Rap

[Rapunzel]

Sunrise, yes, she kept telling me to re-write things because I wasn't getting it. And I think that she didn't believe that I didn't understand what she wanted. I did so much better as a student taking a class from her than I ever do in therapy - she is suspicious of that major discrepancy. I guess I ought to do as well in therapy and dealing with my own life, but it isn't so easy. She knows that I'm a graduate student, in training to become a therapist myself, and she expects me to apply that to my own process. That's reasonable - I should be able to use my own training. Why I don't is a big puzzle we're working on.

[withit]

Sunrise, you got me there....my comment stems from an unfortunate experience I had with my previous t, who, when I shared my fantasy (od) with her she finger-wagged (not literally), said I need to deep-breathe (behavioral intervention) and ''you can't do that!'' ....basically did not empathize with my pain....instead, felt a need to apply cb techniques....hence my comment that a psychodynamic therapist who for the most part stays away from cb interventions would listen and empathize (instead of directing the client away from the harmful behavior)...

[withit]

Rapunzel, I'm wondering how wise it is to have a dual relationship with one's therapist: teacher-student and therapist-client. It seems to be getting in the way, eh? Perhaps discuss with her how to keep the two relationships-dynamics separate?

[Rapunzel]

The student-teacher relationship was first. I graduated, and I'm at a different university now. And she was not a member of the faculty of my school in the first place but just teaching one class via satelite, and she doesn't do that anymore. So it really isn't a dual relationship. I'd love to take more classes from her - I loved her as a teacher - but there's no chance of it. Actually, I counted on her as a therapist knowing what I am capable of academically, because I wanted to have a therapist who knew what my potential is. It still seems to come back to bite me though, doesn't it? But past therapists let me slide by and get away with not getting anywhere, and she won't do that. I still count that as a good thing that she will hold me accountable. I guess it's two sides of the same coin so I shouldn't complain about it.

I found this thing... A little while back now... On the role of facial cues for processing emotion. One notion (that I quite like) is that part of the problem with emotional instability (which I've certainly got) is 'failure to mentalise when the attachment system is active'. The 'failure' can be a bit more of a 'bias' than a 'failure' IMHO but the point is... That it can be really very hard to appropriately attribute intentional states to others when we care about them. All our fears and past hurts and the like... Get in the way.

What she might be noticing (I'm thinking) is that there is INDEED a huge difference between how I am in class when things are fairly objective and more emotionally manageable and how I am with my therapist where I'm so wired up because I care so much. One might say... I regress...

Was the sattelite class one where they projected her onto a tv screen or something like that? See, I read this thing a while back and it was talking about potential problems with online communications where we don't see peoples faces as they communicate what they have to say. We can't hear gentle teasing. We can't see the fond smile. In the absense of such cues we tend to become a little paranoid and mistrustful as to others intentions (out of fear) and add to that emotional attachment and...

Well...

This might go some of the way towards explaining why things didn't go so well by email.

I am so very happy that things seem better when you see her FTF :-)

> I obsessed about therapy all the time. I always felt like I wasn't getting it right and she was frustrated with me all the time, and it would go on for weeks and weeks without getting any approval for anything that I did. It made me miserable, and it affected my whole life - everything that I did. I don't know if she understands how hard that was. I was so desperate for a sign of approval and for her to show that she cared about me or liked me or thought that I was worthwhile.

I think it would be wonderful if you could tell her that.

> When I see her f2f I feel more like she actually cares about me. Even when it was email, part of me knew that she cared, I think, but most of me kept thinking that I was a bother and a nuisance to her and that she wished I would disappear.

And that!

> What I am wondering if I should tell her (part of me wants to tell her and the rest is very afraid) is that last Fall when I was suicidal, it was all about her. She was going to terminate me because I wasn't getting anything right and I was getting so frustrated that she kept saying it was wrong (we were working on CBT exercises, but she's primarily psychodynamic and I don't really do so well with CBT, and I think she was trying to add a psychodynamic twist in there that I was missing). She apologized for not listening when what I kept saying was that I couldn't do it (I didn't say that in so many words, but I was begging for some approval and acceptance or even a bit of casual chat). I was suicidal because she is my last hope, and if she gives up on me, I will have nothing to hang on to and I will give up too.

Yeah. I think it could help to tell her that too.

If you are worried that she will start to defend herself before hearing you out then you could email her or something... That way you get to qualify what you say (so she is less likely to take it personally when you chat about it).

Maybe...

[Perna]

Were your situation mine, I think I would work on it myself. I don't believe we do anything because of another, I think that's an "excuse." Yes we have patterns we've grown use to or been taught, etc. but they're still our patterns, not the other person's.

Rapunzel, I think you're hoping for something "good" and specific from your T by telling her? If you don't get what you're expecting, you'll be "hurt." All that is what you are struggling with and kind of puts your T in a bind? I'm sure you have heard of/read situations/posts where someone threatens to kill themselves if someone else leaves? Communication is to find out about another, what they are thinking/feeling. Having an agenda before we start a conversation, wanting certain results from it without telling the other person isn't fair to the other person.

If you feel (you are all who matter, we do not, it's your life and therapy) you should tell your T, I would keep it in the present. I would tell her how you're feeling now (wanting confirmation you are not a burden now but she may not give that confirmation as you would only be telling her you "wish you had confirmation" -- you cannot dictate or will to another what they must say to you). If you hold on to five months ago, you build a crazy, unstable structure of flimsy plywood packing crates to climb to the moon :-) The only way I ever found to be "safe" is to stay in the present and stay "honest" at all times about what I am thinking and feeling no matter how much it hurts.

I was terminated by my therapist recently. She said I was making no progress. She did recommend marriage counseling & gave the name of someone she would recommend. I'm not ready for marriage counseling even though my husband said he would go. I'm too fragile for hearing any negative stuff.

My pdoc is now spending an hour with me weekly to talk about med changes & to talk about the low self-esteem issue.She gives me about 7 questions a week that I am supposed to write an essay about. & gives me assignments to do in regards to dealing with my husband.

So maybe it is all for the good that I was terminated. We'll see. I am resolved to really working on myself...trying to change irrational thinking, etc.--Suzy

[lauren_helene]

Suzy, remember this is her failure not yours. What is going on with the world today??

Making no progress? What did you say to her if anything?

[Rapunzel]

The class was broadcasted to sites around the state, and we could see and hear her on a TV screen, but she couldn't see me. We could talk to her over microphones, but I rarely talked during class either. The person next to me grabbed the microphone faster, and sometimes I'd tell her what to say. I don't like talking over microphones or even telephones, and avoid it if I can. But I loved each class - it was always the highlight of my week, and I would go home and email her after class. That was three years ago, now. And it was a year after that before I met her in person, since we did e-mail only for several months at the beginning of therapy.

I think that we did get a lot done through e-mail, including before it was therapy. After a while I think that the lack of facial cues was a problem. There are ways to maintain the feeling of support through e-mail, and she was good at that at the beginning and when I was a student, but it tended to slip after a while, and I was begging for some approval or a little bit of smalltalk, and the more I begged, the more she withheld it.

Now that we are doing f2f only, sometimes I do email her a picture or something the night before I have an appointment, so that she knows what I want to talk about. That's been going well, but at some point if I keep doing that I expect that she will say that I'm using email to avoid having to say things to her out loud, which I think I do. It's so much easier to say what I need to say in writing. It's just not as good for receiving the response that I need.

I got into the same pattern with my previous T. He was not so good at e-mail, and didn't always answer. I really struggled to say things that I needed to talk about during a session. So we used to mostly chat during a session, then I went home and e-mailed him, and then went to the next session to ask for his response to my e-mail. Interesting pattern, huh? I have an easier time writing to express myself, but I don't get enough satisfaction out of that mode of communication as response.

[Fuzzybear]

"That is can be really very hard to appropriately attribute intentional states to others......................All our fears and past hurts and the like.....Get in the way.


((((((((((((((( Rap )))))))))))))))

[Rapunzel]

Okay, I am having trougle letting go of the past. I tend to hold on to things, especially painful things. And there is a more current chapter to the issue too. It wasn't as painful and scary, probably because it was f2f and included support, but it's the same theme. At the end of the session before last, she told me that she likes me as a person, and that is why she hasn't terminated, but I have to start doing some self-exploration. The implication seemed to be that she will terminate if I don't start making some progress. And I was pleased that she said she liked me (and surprised). I'm not sure that I can believe that she likes me, and it reminds me of my mother saing "I love you" and I told my mom "I don't believe you."

[Fuzzybear]

I always find it "amusing" for lack of a different word.... how different people have such different takes on our progress. Or otherwise. Seems very postive that your T says she likes you now you are doing f2f work. An excellent start I think!

Try to believe her!

xo

[Rapunzel]

Yes, it is hard, and the past really does get in the way. We tend to react to stuff from the past, and the less we have by way of cues relevant to the present situation, the more tendency there would be to fill in the blanks with past stuff.

(((((((((((( Fuzzy )))))))))))))

[sunrise]

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Rapunzel said:
At the end of the session before last, she told me that she likes me as a person, and that is why she hasn't terminated, but I have to start doing some self-exploration.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
From reading your posts here, it sounds to me like you are doing a lot of self-exploration. Why does your T think you aren't? Have you shared with her the self-exploration you are doing?

[Rapunzel]

I think that I am not very good at sharing with her anything I do that might be good. For one thing, I am afraid she won't think it is good enough. And also, if something isn't a problem it doesn't make it to the top of the priority list.

[muse]

(((((((((((((((((((Rapunzel)))))))))))))))))))

Everybody else has made such good posts that there really isn't more I can say, except that YOU are an incredibly special person, and even if your T isn't telling you you're doing well or are capeable, I AM!!!!!

From what I've been reading, you seem to have some self-acceptance stuff going on that maybe your T isn't aware of. I feel exactly the same way you do a lot of the time--nothing I do is ever good enough, I can't possibly be doing as well as some people say, and I HATE it and freak out sometimes when I feel as though I should be validated in what I'm doing and people only come back with criticism. I agree that perhaps you should share more of your self-exploration with your T--and if it would help, you might want to print out and show her the conversation you're having here on PC! This looks like progress to me, at least.

TONS of luck&amp;love,
~muse

[Rapunzel]

Thanks.

[Rapunzel]

Well, I didn't tell her. I was late getting there, and didn't tell her it was because DH said I couldn't leave until he finished mowing the lawn. The time went too fast

I wore capris, because T has commented on how much extra clothing I have been wearing (like a scarf to hide the scratches I made on my face and neck, and lots of layers). So I was making an effort not to cover up my scars, because hiding them was too obvious. I had told her about cutting last month, but didn't tell her where. She noticed my leg and commented that I had done something to it, and made me go through that whole story again. It turned out being productive because I told her about feeling like that was so long ago (last month, yeah), and not something that I feel like doing right now, and each time it happens again I'm surprised because I think I ought to be over it. But it does happen again. She asked how I can be past that, when I haven't done anything about stopping. Just not doing it for a few months doesn't seem to be enough. So now I have to write a plan for managing my own behavior, like I write behavior plans for my clients.

It was productive, but there was so much more that I wanted to talk about, and by the time we finished that topic, there just wasn't time to start a new one, so we chatted about cats and academic stuff for a few minutes instead, which is nice too but I wish there were more time. Two weeks is forever, and my list of things that I want to talk about is getting really long. I think I'll never get to it.

Oh, and she asked what updates I had for the past two weeks, and I couldn't think of anything. I didn't even tell her that I met her sister and wished that I could ask her sister for a hug, because it would have been almost like a hug by proxy.

[MissCharlotte]

Rapunzel,

I have found that when I obsess about whether to tell T something big or not, that when I finally tell him, it's much bigger to me than it is to him. Recently I shared some stuff that had been weighing oh so heavy on me and he just sort of nodded but didn't comment at all because he could see that I was in pain. I was okay with his reaction and I'm sure we will come back to this topic at this point when it presents itself. So, I think that when you get to therapy if this issue is still present you should talk about it and just see where it goes. If you have a good relationship with your T then I bet it will go okay. Please tell her about the reaction you are worried about, if that's what you need to do. My T always says, "what do you need right now?"