Boundary discussion

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
sunrise said:
almeda, for me, "boundaries" is not a negative, but something I need to learn to set better for myself. We talk about this in therapy a lot. My T has boundaries too, but they are not a negative, just something to keep both him and me safe. If I cross them, I would expect him to tell me, and then I would back off.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Of course, I have more to write on this topic and did want to completely hijack Jannie's thread...sorry Jannie...

Sunrise, why do you have to be so logical and right? This makes sense now I think. I see boundaries as a negative...something to overcome and not comply with.

If I apply this to my life out of the session, then I realize I need to be friends with whoever I'm working for or anyone who I perceive as being in a position to judge me in some way.

Using the boss example, if we are friends then I know for sure he/she likes and accepts me and will give me feedback when needed but won't berate me or belittle me.

Also, it is easier for me to work for said boss. I usually do everything I can to take care of them professionally and personally if they want to talk about anything too. This boss who could be male or female is usually older than me and not younger.

I guess I'm always looking for love, acceptance and someone to take care of me and me of them.

With the bosses that I have not been able to establish that sort of relationship with like my current one. I'm very uneasy about my job, how I'm doing the job and whether or not they are 'mad' at me.

Now that I give this more thought, I think my current boss has the same needs that I do but for different reasons. My boss is nasty, moody and very devaluing to most people in the office. She has lots of highs and lows. One minute she's loving me or someone else and the next minute we're nothing.

She jumped right on the friend wagon and it worked for awhile. But lately, we've been clashing on work issues. I'm kind of black/white in my thinking (I am an auditor) and this isn't the political environment for that. Anyway, I haven't been backing down because it will be my 'you know what' on the line if something goes wrong later on. So the friend wagon has crashed and burned.

Now, I'm trying to get out of here. I'm uncomfortable every day that I come in to the office. See the pattern?

For me, boundaries keep me safe. I welcome boundaries, because the protect me from unpredictability, from something negative that might happen.

I like boundaries also. I think that this is due to the complete lack of boundaries in my family when I was growing up. Boundaries allow me to protect my personal space and privacy.

Havng said that, Almeda, I have also crossed boundaries like you have, in the workplace. I like it when my boss likes me and I always try to be friendly but I don't want that friendship to go beyond the workplace. I always liked keeping home and work life separate. (That's another whole issue altogether having to do with shame...Yikes).

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
sister said:
Havng said that, Almeda, I have also crossed boundaries like you have, in the workplace. I like it when my boss likes me and I always try to be friendly but I don't want that friendship to go beyond the workplace. I always liked keeping home and work life separate. (That's another whole issue altogether having to do with shame...Yikes).

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Hey sister, you shouldn't feel shameful. I've given this more thought and maybe this is me just trying to rationalize my feelings on this but I'm not uncomfortable with how I am in this area.

I think this is part of what makes me unique. One thing I am careful not to do is push myself on someone who doesn't reciprocate. I'm not the type to do that, the rejection would be too much for me

For those who go along though, it usually doesn't cause problems in fact most of us still have great friendships. This is the first time it backfired on me in the boss arena.

I felt kind of stupid the first time my T used the word 'transference' and 'boundaries'...I was like huh? It really threw me for a loop. I never knew there were guidelines like this for our T's and us...now after all the discussion about this and research, I can't believe all that I didn't know. I can be embarrassingly naive at times.

Well thanks everyone for discussing it. nighty night!

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Hey sister, you shouldn't feel shameful. I've given this more thought and maybe this is me just trying to rationalize my feelings on this but I'm not uncomfortable with how I am in this area.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Hi -- I didn't intend to imply an inapropriate crossing of boundaries. I believe your actions are good and healthy and okay and I am glad that you are't uncomfortable! My shame is one of my core issues and has to do with growing up in a very dysfunctinoal alcoholic home where I had to hide what was going on--it's even hard for me to share beyond the surface here....So, carry on and enjoy these friendships, i think they are admirable!

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I felt kind of stupid the first time my T used the word 'transference' and 'boundaries'...I was like huh? It really threw me for a loop. I never knew there were guidelines like this for our T's and us...now after all the discussion about this and research, I can't believe all that I didn't know. I can be embarrassingly naive at times.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
My T still has not used those words. I learned what these things are on my own, doing research on the net (until I found this site), because i was so weirded out about my therapy which was sooooo different from a previous experience. Now that I understand, I am more at peace with the process and the transference. Yes, the naievety is astounding at times considering what smart, educated, sohisticated people we are

My T has never used the word boundaries. I don't think he has to because when it comes to me, forget about crossing the boundaries-- I don't even come within a 10 ft. radius of them, lol. In fact, I think the closest he has ever come to discussing something boundary related is to attempt to actually lessen the barrier that I place between us, i.e. telling me 42,396 times that I can call him any time. It's interesting because as a future T, I consciously respect his boundaries. However, in my unconscious I'm crossing boundaries all over the place. It's hard to cross boundaries with a psychoanalyst, lol. It's hard to understand that he can be so unattainable, yet so available at the same time. As I write this, I can see that I have yet to find a balance; have yet to find a gray area. I think a lot of this comes from the way I grew up-- my mom was always very, very lazy. She never did much of anything, but when I would ask her to do something, she would always (and still does) act like it is such a bother. She acts as if you are asking her to do the most complicated, enormous thing ever-- how could you possibly ask her to do such a thing?? It is so exasperating and hurtful, so eventually I just learned not to ask. Not to depend. When I 1st met my mother-in-law, I was always afraid to "bother" her. She always wanted to get together, talk, go shopping, even buy me things. I wasn't used to it. I would be so careful because I didn't want to "annoy" her by crossing any boundaries. Eventually I learned that it was okay to get close because she wanted me to. We now have a wonderful relationship, and I am closer to her than I ever was to my own mother. It's still weird for me though. I think this is what might be happening with my T. I don't want to "bother" him or step anywhere close to the boundaries. I am the type of person who likes to have boundaries set; not because for fear that I might cross them, but because it gives me more of a good reason not to. I almost wish he would tell me that I am not permitted to call at certain times-- that the message has to be x amount of minutes long, that he will only call back under certain conditions. The premise that I can call anytime and say whatever I want on the voicemail (he has even specified that if I need to curse him out on there, to go ahead), is too overwhelming for me.

Thank you, Almeda, for starting this topic. I needed it. And now I'm going to print out this entry and bring it with me to my session today for some reference. I know what I want to talk about now.

Pinksoil, LOL I too haven't the guts to cross any boundarie and like you could acutally move in closer to T but can't/won't. Afraid of being seen as needy or weak or just plain shy. Man does shyness hurt LOL, what does shyness mean anyways? Is it a cover for actually being a beast underneath and wanting to bleed T dry really LOL!

Boundaries, whoa! When I first started therapy many moons ago, I didn't have a clue about what having personal boundaries meant. I thought of boundaries in a geographical sense and never considered that people have a right to personal boundaries. Not having been raised to learn about healthy boundaries, this was an arena of knowledge that was completely foreign to me. And learning about it was a real eye opener for me. It was painfully difficult to intellectually absorb. I had to face the fact that many of the harmful things I experienced was directly related to not having learned and established secure healthy boundaries for myself. It's been a wild ride learning about boundaries. For me, they are 100% crucial for my well-being. I wish I had been taught them as a young child, but as they say, "Better late than never".

I'm learning so much more from you all.

Pink, my mom was the same way everything was a bother. I remember around age 6 or 7 coming into the living room to ask her to put a barrette in my hair. She completely lost it and started hollering/screaming to leave her alone.

On weekends growing up, we learned, if mom is on the couch sleeping or reading...tip toe around the house or she'll freak out.

This is why I have an assertiveness problem. Just a simple question of 'can I go to the mall' or 'go outside' took me hours to finally get up the nerve to ask. My dad was very similar but he worked a lot so mom was the one who was around all the time.

I don't have the guts to intentionally cross boundaries with my T. I just hint around by saying 'okay martinis are on you'...stuff like that.

He always handles it with a smile. It does hurt though when transference or the word boundary is used to me by him. It feels like I do not matter to him one bit. I know this isn't true but it triggers me for sure. Look, I'm obsessing over this again.

And, now I'm still 14 days from my next session. I really need to stop counting this is making me more upset.

Mostly my T and discuss boundaries as relates to me--my boundaries and how I am unsuccessful at establishing and holding them. I let him worry about his own boundaries, and I focus on examining the problems relating to my own. I feel as though I do set boundaries but don't know how to keep people from walking all over them. I need lessons in this. I do feel T is very respectful of my boundaries (maybe the only person in my life who is). If we get to a topic that is too much of a hot potato for me, and I veer away or say I don't want to talk about it, he is very respectful of that. He lets me choose the topics and the direction and doesn't walk over my boundaries inappropriately. He knows I will return to the difficult topics when I am able.

I had never heard the term "boundaries" in this context until I started therapy. My T did talk about his own boundaries once. I didn't really want to have that conversation. I had asked very early on in my indirect dream fashion for self-disclosure from him--I wasn't going to "play ball" in therapy without that. Luckily, I was with a humanistic T who was able to provide what I needed. He did tell me at one point that he wasn't going to be my friend (outside of therapy) and we weren't going to spend time in therapy talking about his problems. I remember feeling like that was really a slap in the face, as I hadn't asked for that stuff, in fact, I would have been terrified to see him outside of therapy. So I felt rejected when I hadn't even made the attempt to put myself out there. I remember kind of snapping at him that I wasn't at all confused about our relationship, that it was hard to be confused when only one of us was paying the other $125 each week. I look back on that now and laugh, but at the time, it didn't feel good.

With my current boss, we were good friends before she hired me and have maintained our friendship. We sometimes get together outside of the office, just like we used to before I worked there. I've worked there 8 years and this has not been a problem for us.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I felt kind of stupid the first time my T used the word 'transference'

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
My T has never used that term in therapy. But we do engage in it. I learned about it by reading at psych sites online and in books, such as "In Session," that book about the bond between women and their therapists. I have been floored to experience it, but T and I don't go all jargony about it. He just lets me experience it, and our bond has grown. He sometimes makes transference interpretations, and I will too. I have not had too much of the negative transference, mostly the positive. And now, I am just strongly attached to the guy, and happy in that.

Another bit of jargon: sometimes T talks about "the frame." I've read about this too, the therapeutic frame. I never question him when he uses this term, I wonder if he knows I know what it is?

Boundaries....what a bother. Some are therapeutically stationed and those are steadfast in my therapeutic world right now. Some are well defined by my childhood to the point of being unnecessarily anully* about "acceptable" behaviour. Some are not defined and I continue to wish I knew where they were. As I struggle to come out of myself and find my own voice that often is a test of expanding boundaries that others may not approve of and I have a fear of being burned and often question whether I am right or wrong.

Major struggles.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I guess I'm always looking for love, acceptance and someone to take care of me and me of them.

With the bosses that I have not been able to establish that sort of relationship with like my current one. I'm very uneasy about my job, how I'm doing the job and whether or not they are 'mad' at me.

Now that I give this more thought, I think my current boss has the same needs that I do but for different reasons. My boss is nasty, moody and very devaluing to most people in the office. She has lots of highs and lows. One minute she's loving me or someone else and the next minute we're nothing

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

almeda24fan,

Are we co-workers?!

I too look for love and acceptance everywhere. Sometimes I don't realize it until it's too late and I'm feeling rejected. It's getting easier to see, but still not at the moment, only afterwards. My manager is also very moody and negative we never know which way the wind is blowing. It is hard to work under that, but I guess it is a learning experience there for the taking. An opportunity to practice what I need to practice.

Sometimes getting out is the right answer though. I hope you do whatever it is that's the best for you. (( almeda24fan ))

ECHOES

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
almeda24fan said:
Also, it is easier for me to work for said boss. I usually do everything I can to take care of them professionally and personally if they want to talk about anything too. This boss who could be male or female is usually older than me and not younger.

I guess I'm always looking for love, acceptance and someone to take care of me and me of them.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I had similar problems when I was working, almeda, but I think some of it has to do with transference rather than boundaries; "thinking"/feeling they were parent figures?

I think of boundaries like literal ones; as if we're all a different "state"/county or some other jurisdiction and we both have to work together but also have to keep others from messing with our business -- i.e., there has to be interstate commerce and "council of governments" sorts of organizations but each has it's own police force and laws, etc. :-) Even if a law is the "same" in one county as another, doesn't mean the "other" county cop can drive across the border and apprehend the suspect.