Advice on boundary setting?

My T has said that I am not good at setting boundaries for people. I see this and am trying to understand how to set boundaries and how to improve my ability to do so.

If someone crosses your boundaries and you tell them not to, and they still do it, what should you do? That's the piece that I am missing. I have many instances of trying to set boundaries in my life but people just ignore them. I don't know what to say or do to get them to respect my boundaries. So I just give up and don't try to set boundaries.

Recently, my T said I set a boundary with him in therapy, and he complied, and he congratulated me on this. Well, that's great, but when I set the boundary, he respected it. He responded well! But it has not been my experience in life that people will listen to me and respect my boundaries. My world has not been filled with people like my T.

I think my approach has just been to give up when people won't respect my boundaries and then be in these miserable relationships in which people walk all over me. I take responsibility for this. I don't know how to get them to comply. I need to learn.

My big success recently is that after 20 years of marriage I'm getting a divorce. This is the ultimate boundary setting, to abandon someone who won't respect your boundaries. However, I would like to learn things I can do that are not so drastic. How can I enforce my boundaries without walking away from a relationship? I am thinking here not just of future romantic relationships, but current relationships with other family members, friends, etc.

All advice is appreciated! Please don't hesitate to say something that may seem really obvious to you, because it may not be obvious to me at all. I feel like I'm in pre-school when it comes to the subject of boundaries.

You're so right! When I set a bondary with T, he gets very excited and says how pleased he is. It doesn;t work that way in real life! But T is my practice.

I think the hard part is realizing we can't force people to comply with out boundaries, we can just set consequences we can live with. That doesn't mean having to walk away from every relationship, but I think it does mean changing relationships.

For example, I have a friend who often criticizes the way I do my job. I am working up the nerve to say, "When you say X, it hurts my feelings because I feel like you don't think I'm good at my job." The harder part for me is saying what I need and what I will do if I don't get it. "Please stop saying I am X. If you can't, then I'm not going to discuss work with you any more." I worry that my friend will walk away from our relationship. Sometimes setting boundaries ends in what feels like disaster.

Its hard to put into words, its a feeling I have inside of me when I am holding firm to what I have said or believe in. For instance I dont like to gossip and when people come to me and want to start gossiping I just simply smile and say, "I'm really not interested in hearing this" and if the person continues with this action, I just smile and say nothing and that way the other person gets to decide what they wish to do with their behaviour. I dont necessarly walk away from relationships now as I dont become over involved in anyway that feels to emeshed. SO by me remaining firm, its up to others how much they wish to continue with their behaviour and sometimes it does take time, but I think if the other person see's that you dont judge them on that 1 action and that your there but wont' be pulled into their behaviour they eventually change how they are with you. Well this has been my experience with a certain work collegue. If I kept saying I don't like it when you do this or that, I think that can seem judgmental and like one-upman-ship, but a small smile and no reaction does the trick.

Hey! Since I'm majorly lazy, I'm too lazy to attach all the links that Clyde gave me... but I actually asked the same question down in Clyde's Corner a while ago. I have boundary setting problems too.

link here - click!

Hope that helps.

Thanks, I am learning a lot already.

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skeksi said:
I think the hard part is realizing we can't force people to comply with out boundaries, we can just set consequences we can live with.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I think I'm having a hard time deciding what I can live with. Am I willing to give up on the relationship just for the sake of my boundaries, or is it worth it to let them walk all over you just so you can have them in your life? And what if this is your child and you can't abandon them? Do you just shut them up in one room and go into another, fix them meals, and call it a day? It's really hurtful to me to live like that and I don't understand why anyone would want that. I frequently feel bewildered.

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"When you say X, it hurts my feelings

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I've tried that approach with several people throughout my life, and the response is "I don't care if I'm hurting your feelings." How do I respond to that? I think that the "hurting your feelings" statement can make people feel you are trying to get sympathy or something (ahh, poor little sunny, her feelings are all hurt) and that brings out the bully in people (at least the people I've tried that with). It seems to make them want to treat you even worse and be disgusted by your weakness and vulnerability. You lose all respect by saying your feelings are hurt. By saying my feelings are hurt, I'm not trying to get sympathy or be a wuss, I just want not so much hurt in my life and to be treated respectfully. Skeksi, I hope this approach works with your co-worker. I think some people respond very well to it.

Mouse, I think from your post that I have to be firmer in the consequences. Basically, I have to be willing to say, if you won't respect my boundaries, I will not have a relationship with you. I don't know of any other "lesser" consequences that I haven't tried already. You sound so strong, Mouse, and so successful at boundary setting. I will try to do what you suggest, but don't have much hope. Maybe I need some ideas for what "lesser consequences" would be. Mouse, it sounds like one consequence you use successfully is not to talk to a person if they won't comply with your boundary. Any other ideas?

Christina, thanks for the link. I will check it out.

I guess that if people say to me that they don't care about my feelings (or they otherwise show me that) then I back off from the relationship. Basically... There isn't much point being friends with someone who doesn't care about your feelings... If that happens with kids or someone where you can't simply remove yourself from them, well, perhaps there are different degrees of removal.

I guess what the thing to do is depends quite significantly on the particular situation. Maybe it would help a little to look at some of the occasions where you feel that your boundaries weren't respected and to have a bit of a think / brain storm about different things that one can do from there?

It surprises me sometimes (when I was doing role play stuff in group) that there are strategies and I thought 'that will never work' and yet when I gave it a go... It did. Remarkable... I think that sometimes one needs to figure it out on a case by case basis, though.

Sunrise, I think for me its not that I dont talk to the person its that I dont react to them. If they are in their own adult role then yes conversation takes place, but if they're coming from their child part, which we all can, myself included, then I then just use the smile that says, ok this is your stuff not mine. I think its allowing the idea that a person will eventually learn what is and what isn't acceptable to you and know that you are not expecting perfection from them, but you won't always play ball with them either. I think if we take the person as a whole and not just the parts of them that we find unacceptable then we remain in control of our own reactions to them? Of course there are times, eg, physical violence or threats of physical violence that cannot be tolerated and then taking yourself completely out of that relationship is the only mature action to take, but if its just a case of boundaire pushing and testing then its your own self you need to trust that you will surivive their pushing your boundaires?? I am by no means an expert on this at all!!!!

Sunrise,

Good topic. I think many of us struggle with boundaries.

I do believe that each situation is an individual one. For example, there are boundaries about touching that I wouldn't expect someone to cross and if they did, then I would react strongly. However, there are other boundaries that I have had difficulty with also.

Recently, a person who I had a working relationship with crossed my personal boundaries, and our business relationship boundaries, with unrealistic expectations. I sort of extricated myself from the situation without saying too much at all (as Mouse said). I did tell her that she needed to communicate with me but I used my silence that followed to communicate my dissatisfaction. She "got" the message. I wanted to just tell her to f off but I held my tongue and smiled. She had her own stuff going on and it was painfully obvious that this was her stuff and not mine.

I also recently discussed something with T about my relationship with one of my sisters. At times, it is wonderful and we share the same sense of humor. At others, she is rageful and crosses many boundaries. T said I have to protect myself her when she is like that. But I realized it doesn't mean I don't see her anymore. I talk to her when I sense she is safe, and keep the visits shorter and less frequent. Also, when she "acts up" I cut the conversation or visit short.


I think you are on the right track by observing.

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I've tried that approach with several people throughout my life, and the response is "I don't care if I'm hurting your feelings." How do I respond to that?

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That's the hard part--following through with whatever consequences you set. If a boundary is a limit of what you will do or tolerate, it is established not only by our words but our actions. That might mean leaving a conversation, refusing to discuss certain topics, or something more. If someone doesn't care if they hurt us, that's fine, but we can still take steps to protect ourselves.

I found when I was studying "humiliation" with my T that you kind of have to figure out before saying/doing anything what the "consequences" will be; what the boundary is, why you have that boundary for that person or persons and what you expect from it?

A lot of boundary setting for me is telling people "where" I am with "I" statements that say what I like/don't like. If the people love me or care about me (adults), they're going to be paying attention? If they don't, then I don't want to be around them.

When I had a boss disrespect me in front of others, I was humiliated because what he said was true enough but what he criticized was a personal failing I was working on in therapy hard so it hurt for him to be making fun of me instead of going "slow" and trying to help. In addition, he was being critical when I was literally trying to help him! There was no "thank you" or indication that he was appreciative of my efforts. I went back to my office near to tears but the more I thought about how things truly were, I got angry! It was wonderful! And I started thinking about what I could do/say if he ever did it again and how to "solve" the problem the best I could.

I immediately decided to not try to help him! He could ask for my help if he wanted it but I would no longer volunteer, friendly helpful soul I am :-) but would try to steer clear of him. If he ever made fun of/humiliated me again, I decided on a little speech to the point with an ultimatum; he'd get the one angry warning and be told that if he ever did any such thing again (a third time), I would quit.

It sounds a little bit to me that people don't respect your boundaries sometimes because maybe you don't establish them forcefully enough? It can't be casual; usually boundaries are established becuase someone has stepped over one and we learn we don't like that? So at that time one needs to take a moment and figure out what to say/do and set up the boundary. If we just set up "arbitrary" boundaries with no references to another's behavior at the moment, it might look out of place or even bizarre?

I once got a PM here from someone I didn't know telling me to not reply to their posts anymore. I almost laughed because it made no sense to me as I had no clue who this person was even! I politely responded that I'd try to do that, it didn't hurt my feelings or make me feel as if I had done something wrong because. . . I didn't know them. I think if we arbitrarily, out of our little heads, set a boundary, a lot of people won't understand what's going on and maybe that's where some of your trouble lies? I had to work to remember this person's name and pay attention so I didn't accidentally respond to a post of theirs! But I don't think most people are going to do that. I think a lot of the time I know in my head what I'm thinking and it all makes sense but the people around me have no clue so I'll say something and it will be nonsensical. So when you set a boundary, make sure you are serious and everyone is on the same page and knows what's going on? If they're inattentive or cross the boundary, you can bring them up short with a, "Did you not understand what I said the other day about doing/saying X in my presence?". But if people keep crossing boundaries, you have to have your "action" plan consequences figured out.

Great topic, and one I know I still struggle with.

Mouse said: </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
think for me its not that I dont talk to the person its that I dont react to them

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IMHO, this is one of the most powerful things about boundaries. I can talk until I'm blue in the face explaining my boundaries to my partner, but that just seems to create defensiveness.

If instead, I just do not respond in the way he is accustomed to, it seems to just change his behavior.

I don't think of boundaries so much in terms of 'consequences', but in terms of 'response'.

Will an electric fence plead with you not climb it? No, it will just sit there silently doing what it does -- marking a line in the sand. If the other person chooses to climb it, they will be shocked. The fence does not care one way or another.

The part I struggle with most is not feeling guilty or emotionally engaging when I set a boundary.

I am not a good boundary setter but I have has some success with setting boundaries with my kids this year. The key for me was to think of key behaviors that I definitely needed to change and then we established a 2-3 stages consequence. House rules applied to everyone; only for H and I the consequences were different. Once written down I posted them and H and I stuck to them. Luckily the consequences I chose were things that the kids really valued and they got the message and started to comply. With my oldest, the first 3 weeks were awful, but we stuck it our. Didn't yell or scream just simply stated that it was unfortunate that he disregarded the house rules and had lost whatever privilege. What helped in this situation was that the rules we set had clear cut penalty times (2 hours, 1 day, etc) THIS WAS SO HELPFUL in avoiding being pestered every 5 minutes to get a privilege back. They knew upfront and pestering was futile.

I'm not sure how well setting rules and defining consequences would work for older kids. I would say that you really have to thing hard about what removal of privileges. Access to the car seems like it could be an effective behavior modification tool. Making them responsible for any increase in insurance premiums if they get a ticket, incur a claim, or their grades drop and they no longer get the good student discount.

With my H the best move I made in setting a boundary was during one of his "Where the F are you?" rants. I simply said without any anger, "Call me back when you can address me with respect." and hung up. He never called back or apologized, but he has yet to jump all over me like that since. When my kids start demanding things instead of politely asking for them, I usually acknowledge them but do not consider responding until they rephrase.

My biggest problem is making it clear how I want to be treated. I can set the intolerable boundaries such as I clearly and directly stating, "If you strike our children again in rage, I will begin divorce proceeding immediately." This I totally mean, and he knows it, and luckily he has chosen not to test this boundary. However it the smaller less black and white issues I struggle with. I have a very large areas of gray. I often don't speak up and say when things bother me but then get resentful. I think this is kind of like what Mouse said.. I don't react when I've been mistreated. If I could only make these areas more clear, I would be so much better off.

i just remembered that we did this thing in DBT group on boundaries. it was focused on 'making a request' since we all seemed to have trouble with that...

the thought was that you had a think about the request and your reasons for it and you figured out such things as:

- is it in the persons power to do it?
- is it something that is hard for the other person to do (how hard)?
- is it something that is likely to involve impinging on their boundaries (how much)?
- how important is it to me?

then... if it was something that was relatively easy for the person, and something that was really important to us, then the notion was that we could ask... but be less likely (more hesitant) to take 'no' for an answer. whereas if it was harder for the other and /or not so important to us then we should be more accepting of a 'no' answer. and... same goes for the requests that others have of us.

i guess the other part to it is figuring out how to deal with the 'no'. i guess friendships are SUPPOSED to suffer if one friend won't do something that is really important to the other when there is little cost involved for themself. you realize... that friend isn't really there for you. if people keep crossing your boundaries maybe it is because: 1) they aren't such good friends or... 2) maybe it is because they have never heard a uni-vocal 'no' from you before. people will push when they sense hesitancy or vacillation (nobody likes to hear 'no). i guess... i'd try and work on the latter before writing off the friendship... but then... depends how much the friendship means to you (and what it is that you do get out of it, i guess)

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chaotic13 said:
I often don't speak up and say when things bother me but then get resentful. .. I don't react when I've been mistreated. If I could only make these areas more clear, I would be so much better off.

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Hi Chaotic, you have been doing a lot of great work here!

Above ^, do you think that you might have some gray areas because you haven't been meeting your needs yet?

I think to set good boundaries it is not only necessary to intellectually understanding that it is OK to have needs and wants, it is important to actually "get this" on an emotional level as well. I think for me setting some of these more personal boundaries is difficult because I frequently tell myself things like... "I don't really NEED that." or "I don't really care that I've just been called something or disrespected." or "I shouldn't need or want that person's approval, attention, connection anyway." or "I'll survive with or without that person's love or appreciation." or "I'm immuned to these insults because I'd cold, hard, incapable of caring." These statements are really good at quelling angry outbursts or suppressing outward responses. However, they ignore or deny the basic human need to feel important or valued by others.

When you don't respond and appear indifferent people just walk all over you. And you no matter how you rationalize it...or how good you are at hiding it from yourself and others... it likely affects you on some level.

I know this...but I still often refuse to react and deal with the issue.

Sunrise,
Can you imagine helping a friend set boundaries? What boundaries would you recommend to them? How would you advise your friend? If you saw a child verbally abuse your friend, how would you speak-up and defend her? Maybe if you made yourself a 3rd party, you could come up with some good boundaries and then responses or consequences. Then you could try and practice implementing them in your own home.

Chaotic, so you are basically telling yourself that you don't need these needs then even though deep down you know you do?

Yes... maybe it is the left brain telling the right brain to stop wanting thing you cannot have.

Thank you all for posting your ideas. I must admit I'm kind of overwhelmed. The posts have served to reinforce that I am very inept at setting, communicating, and enforcing boundaries. The process seems very complicated to me and now seems even further out of reach than I had thought. I am hoping my new therapist can help; I will see him later this week.

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I then just use the smile that says, ok this is your stuff not mine. I think its allowing the idea that a person will eventually learn what is and what isn't acceptable to you

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I guess I tried this too often, saying nothing, and trying instead to model the way I wanted to be treated. But people didn't get it and kept stepping on my boundaries anyway. My therapist said I had to be more direct with them, and tell them, not expect them to just guess by my smiles or expressions or how I act towards them. So I've tried the direct approach too, but have not had that work either.

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That's the hard part--following through with whatever consequences you set.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I guess one of the hardest things for me is coming up with consequences that are not drastic, such as leaving the person completely. Some of the stories told in this thread are helping me get ideas for different consequences one might try. Right now I'm feeling backed into a corner, like the lesser consequences I've tried have not had an effect, even if I stuck to them, so I either have to put up with the boundary crossings or maybe leave the relationship. I am seeking the therapist's help because I really don't want to give up on the relationship, but I'm getting so close... Yet I don't want to keep being a doormat either.

Perna, of all the posts, yours made me feel the most disheartened (not that there was anything wrong with it). I have told my boundaries. Sometimes quite forcefully. I am very clear on the behavior that I want and expect. But still my boundaries are ignored. Your conclusion was then just don't be around that person. I really hate to think that is what it has come to, that I have to abandon this person. You also mentioned you have to be on the same page. I have no idea how to get on the same page with someone who won't respect my boundaries. If they were on the same page, it seems like they wouldn't be crossing my boundaries. Reading your post really brought home to me what a failure I am at this. It's as if a sports coach has tried to teach me an athletic skill and I have practiced it over and over and still am completely uncoordinated at it and it is obviously hopeless that I will never learn. We can't all learn to do back flips--maybe I just need to accept my limitations.

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chaotic13 wrote:
When you don't respond and appear indifferent people just walk all over you.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I think that's true. And I have tried this strategy (not responding and appearing indifferent), but I can't say it's helped. There are some people who enjoy hurting others, and at least by appearing indifferent, I did not give them the satisfaction of knowing that I was hurt. That was important to me and at least had something to offer me, in contrast to not appearing indifferent and then getting walked on anyway.

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sunrise said:
I must admit I'm kind of overwhelmed. The posts have served to reinforce that I am very inept at setting, communicating, and enforcing boundaries. The process seems very complicated to me and now seems even further out of reach than I had thought.

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((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( sunrise ))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Don't be discouraged. I would guess that many, if not most, people in therapy need help learning how to set boundaries. I know I do. I read your post in the other thread about all of the things you have learned in therapy. This is something you will be able to add to your list eventually, I am sure of it.

Being aware of the need to learn it is the first step. It won't happen overnight....but it will happen. Hang in there.

Sunrise, maybe you won't really have to leave these relationships in the end. Maybe if you show them that you are serious and you will leave maybe they will get on the same page as you.

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chaotic13 said:
Yes... maybe it is the left brain telling the right brain to stop wanting thing you cannot have.

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Do you really believe that you cannot have this?

Sunny, I think my problem isn't so much setting boundaries, but expressing my opinion when it is different than what other people have just said. This can be similar to setting boundaries. I think I unconsciously hold back my opinion because I think that will be pleasing to other people.

However, what I've learned and observed is that (I'm mostly thinking of work settings) co-workers end up respecting and wanting to work with people who do express their opinions. In the end, they appreciate the person who is honest and open more than someone who just agrees. You might find out it is the same with setting boundaries. If you consistantly stand firm with some people (your daughter, co-workers, etc) in the end, and maybe it will take a long time, they'll respect you even more. Just a thought.....

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sunrise said:
If someone crosses your boundaries and you tell them not to, and they still do it, what should you do? That's the piece that I am missing. I have many instances of trying to set boundaries in my life but people just ignore them. I don't know what to say or do to get them to respect my boundaries. So I just give up and don't try to set boundaries.

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I find it starts in how you feel about yourself. If you feel you don't deserve to be treated with respect, then you will definitely be walked all over and have your personal boundaries violated. Some people who don't have a good sense of personal boundaries don't even recognize it.

I would ask your therapist this question--if you don't know what the faulty behavior/thought processes are that enables the boundary violators to disrespect you, then how can you even begin to correct it?

I should mention that that no matter how much self-respect/self-esteem a person has, there will always be people that attempt to disrespect you and violate a personal boundary. People who have a good self respect/self-esteem (implying a good sense of personal boundaries) do not allow for repeat offense, and certainly do not make themselves into martyrs or doormats for the self-aggrandizement of others.

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My big success recently is that after 20 years of marriage I'm getting a divorce. This is the ultimate boundary setting, to abandon someone who won't respect your boundaries.

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Why do you call it abandonment?? If your own husband will not even take the appropriate steps to respect you as a person (which begins by recognizing his own faults and shortcomings), let alone his wife---then who is really abandoning the marriage, him or you? He abandoned everything that a husband is supposed to be then, wouldn't you say? I know how terrible it feels to divorce a spouse, having gone through this; nay, still going through this very issue.

Even if you know that your spouse is the problem and that you've done everything you could have to "fix" the marriage (or any relationship really), it doesn't take away the hurt of the love for that person (past love, current love, or even false "love"). In my case, there wasn't anything that I could have done to heal the rift in our marriage, since a marriage is like any other equal partnership. Successful partnerships require that each partner does whatever they can to save the "business" (in our case, marriage) from dissolving and running into the ground.

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I think my approach has just been to give up when people won't respect my boundaries and then be in these miserable relationships in which people walk all over me. I take responsibility for this. I don't know how to get them to comply. I need to learn.

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Even with my relatively good self-esteem and a good sense of boundaries, it made no difference in "saving" our relationship, as my spouse didn't really want to accept responsibility for contributing to our failed relationship. I can "fix" my own negative behaviors, but I sure as hell can't fix someone else's. That applies to every relationship dynamic. You can only take responsibility for your own behaviors, not other people's.

You can't force other people to treat you with respect, but you can make it known immediately that you will not give that person your permission to treat you disparagingly. Do not remain silent. Silence does nothing but give consent to the offender. Tell the offender in specific language, calmly, careful not to allow room for an argument or expansion into larger issues. No room for argument should be given, as being given respect should be your expectation, not an option.

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However, I would like to learn things I can do that are not so drastic. How can I enforce my boundaries without walking away from a relationship? I am thinking here not just of future romantic relationships, but current relationships with other family members, friends, etc.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> You do it one minute at a time, and eventually self-esteem will EMANATE from you. Allow yourself to build your wall of personal courage and self-esteem with every small success, and never internalize the mistakes or unsuccessful attempts.

Never apologize for accepting anything less than to be treated with respect by all people. Sacrificing your own personal needs for the wants/desires/requests from someone else sets the stage for negative feelings and low self-esteem. Self-sacrifice for the personal gain of others at your personal expense turns you into a willing doormat. Don't be a willing subject to other people. People who use others in this fashion are not deserving of your company, and you should extricate yourself from them. There is a difference between being personally responsible for something or someone,such as your child, and being used as a doormat.

There are some relationships that, through no fault of your own, are simply not reparable in spite of what you contribute to the relationship. Some people are simply not willing to shed their negative behaviors. Primarily this is because they are deep in the quagmire of denial. It's really difficult when this is a family member or someone you've had a long-standing relationship/friendship with. If it's a family member that's the offender, the same steps apply as non-family members. Everyone has the need to be loved, valued, wanted, and treated with respect.