Another discussion of attachment (with poll)

I am curious to know, by poll, who has been so attached to a therapist, felt like that you were in-love with your therapist, that it freaked you out?

I am not sure what you mean by freaked out.

I am attached to my T way much but I know this happens in effective therapy. I grieved greatly when my first one died but I think that was acceptable.

Ipse... My fear for you.. and correct me if I am wrong ...but you are basing your decision to return to therapy on how she answers your questions ...without discussion. You also will not go elsewhere. Am I right here. I am afraid that you are not taking care of yourself....and you need to be your own advocate to the best of your ability.

"freaking out" is a vague term, yes. so i tried to just reduce it to "anxiety" in the actual question: i.e. "Have you ever felt so attached to your therapist that you felt anxiety?" Everyone has their own definitions of what anxiety looks like, but there seems to be a general sense of what anxiety is. "Freaking out" is just a "street-talk" phrase, a folksy phrase.

i appreciate your fear, SecretGarden. But I don't intend on basing my choice on returning to therapy on her answers to my questionare.

Part of what I told her when I handed her the questions was: "after you return this we can schedule a session".

And the questions themselves literally include an option where she can circle "Need More", where I explained to her, if she can't answer the question because she "needs more" information we can address it in an actual session.

So I have every intention of having a sit-down face-to-face therapy session with her. I wouldn't base my entire decision on how she answers questions. I know from the past (with her) we do better face-to-face than over the phone or in print. You can't get the "real story" unless you are face-to-face.

I often write things up for therapy, because I am not very good at verbally speaking my words (which is why it is hard for me to be social, because you can't go out with friends and just write out conversations, can you?)

The questionarre is a preparation, not a decision. I know 100% I would never allow myself to decide about things without sitting down with her. I know there are parts of me that won't allow me to just walk away based on a piece of paper.

I do appreciate your concern and fear, but I hope this lays your fears to rest. I would like to have the answers to the questions returned so that I CAN call her to make an appointment. To me it makes no sense to return until I have that, because that is what will be on my mind: the questions I have. So if she has that and has gone through the questions, we can be on a common ground and be in a similar framework for our discussion, when that happens.

So, fear not, discussion with her would be involved. And I'm not even putting any limits on how many sessions it would take to discuss the questions.

Okey... That does make me feel better. How long does she have to complete the questions...When is her deadline for doing that?

Also... though I do not freak out... I am anxious with my pdoc out of town..a bit.... I also wonder if I might have been more anxious or freaked at the idea of the connection when I first started therapy....but that was years ago. I am not sure... as odd as it was, I think that I welcomed it--finally someone to connect with.

Yes indeed. I have felt so attached to my T that it causes me anxiety. It mostly shows up in the last 10 or 15 minutes of the session... when I know it is soon time to leave and I won't be seeing him for a whole week. Ugh. It was much easier when I saw him 2x per week.

I think I got pretty freaked out when I first started attaching strongly to my therapist. I had no experience with that and thought it was highly abnormal and unhealthy (I hardly knew this man, who was a paid professional!). Through reading (the "In Session" book and others) as well as exchanging information here on PC, I learned that strong attachment to one's therapist is very normal and in fact, therapeutic. This normalizing of my experience made me feel not as freaked out about it. Now I have a strongly attached relationship with my T and am very comfortable with that.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
sunrise said:
Through reading (the "In Session" book and others) as well as exchanging information here on PC, I learned that strong attachment to one's therapist is very normal and in fact, therapeutic.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Yes! Me too. Until I came here on PC, I felt completely freaked out and alone in my attachment. It doesn't matter how much I studied it in school; all the stuff I read.... it's all knowledge... Then I began to feel it and it became real. Then I came on PC and the universality of it became apparent.... I wasn't the only one! It felt really, really good.

the main reason for posting this poll is to get a sense of how many others feel the anxiety i do with the attachment to a therapist and the "in-love" feelings I sometimes have... so that when I feel it I can try to remind myself it isn't just me and that I'm not alone and that, in some ways, it is normal. "Normal" is one of those nebulous words anyway.

SecretGarden, there is no deadline for her responses.
i think i wanted to leave that up to my therapist because, in a sense, it is a "silent question" or a "test". i want to see how quickly she responds, how high in the priority list it is for her, or in another way how high she puts me on her priority list. and in a more oblique way, how enthusiastic she is about having me around again.

but, in some ways or maybe many ways, it really isn't a fair question or test. when I gave it to her I told her to do at her leisure, so if she doesn't answer it as quickly as I'd like...well then it is my fault for using phrases like "at her leisure" and not being more specific.

and if i'm not happy with the speed of her response, it will give me another lesson on speaking my needs. you can't get your needs met unless you speak them. others can't guess. this idea i know logically, but emotionally it is hard to want to speak my needs when I literally loath myself and feel things about myself that we are explictely asked not to speak about in these forums.

my therapist has often spoke of a child's need to test their parents, to test their "love"? and i think i test my therapist a lot. though i'm sure at least half of them are not even conscious tests, until i have had time to think about my actions later on and think to myself: "Was I testing her again?" and I'm sure I have no malicious intent in my tests (well pretty sure).

i literally only gave her the questions a week ago.

i guess if i wasn't prone to doing stupid things all the time and didn't self-sabotage all the time, I wouldn't need therapy.

Ipse...I think you are pretty smart ...about yourself and what you need to do.... You can see it. You need to be good to you and ask for what you need. I think you are coming along... Part of taking care of yourself may be to check in with her if you have not heard back in a timely fashion...whatever you deem that to be.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
pinksoil said:
Then I came on PC and the universality of it became apparent.... I wasn't the only one! It felt really, really good.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I am going to order the "In Session" book this weekend I think. I am looking forward to reading it.

I have to say that coming here has really caused a split in me... (oh oh...another something to look at..) In one way I was so psyched to see the similarities and then... oh I did not invent the wheel, nor did my pdocs. I was kind of freaked... so that I was freaked about... Gee... we are in many ways going through similar experiences though personal journies but hey I want more stories of success and making it to the other side. I have confidence that people here will be successful... and generally I do feel that way about me but sometimes.... I have that doubt and that I would like to hear more about.

Hi Ipse Dixit (cool screen name by the way!) you are definitely not alone with these feelings of attachment and being "in love" with your therapist... and i can totally understand that it can create major anxiety at times... but i think, and as others have said, that is a big part of what therapy is about...

i know only too well how very hard those feelings are to handle sometimes, but in my opinion (for what its worth) there is nothing more powerful than being in love and IF that power can be channelled into something positive there is real chance of change...

i hope you are able to hang in there with your therapist and talk more about this stuff with her...

take care and know for sure that you are not alone

best wishes Nikki

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
SecretGarden said:
Ipse...I think you are pretty smart ...about yourself and what you need to do.... You can see it. You need to be good to you and ask for what you need. I think you are coming along... Part of taking care of yourself may be to check in with her if you have not heard back in a timely fashion...whatever you deem that to be.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Nikki4520 said:i know only too well how very hard those feelings are to handle sometimes, but in my opinion (for what its worth) there is nothing more powerful than being in love and IF that power can be channelled into something positive there is real chance of change...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

thanks for more supportive words. (Ipse Dixit is defined as: "an assertion made but not proven.")

---- i am pretty sure that after 3 weeks, I'd give my therapist a call if she doesn't get back with me.

---- and i might have said this before, but i can see every "logical truth" about how skewed my self-image is and logically what the "answers" to my questions are. it is all logically laying out there in front of me, as clear as the keys on the keyboard i'm using the type this. i do think my work with my therapist in the past 3 years has enabled the logical items to be laid out in that way (not all of them...but many of them)

however.....my untamed, misguided and untaught, beaten up (literally and figuratively), molested and neglected emotions...now buried in an unreachable hole or cave or cell somewhere inside of my core...cannot see and understand any of the logic...much less reach it or touch it.

i don't have the language, it seems, to understand my emotions - a language that is as elusive to understand for me as is, say, Chinese or Japanese. It seems I don't even know the alphabet to translate what I know "logically" into a language my "emotions" speak.

perhaps one day I might find the "emotional Rosetta Stone" to bring the logical and emotional language together.

until then...i remain in my stalemate............................

I love this thread Ipse! Yes, I have felt anxiety but in a good way if that makes sense.

I had a great session today and love my therapist...stay tuned until next week...giggle....

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
pinksoil said:
Yes indeed. I have felt so attached to my T that it causes me anxiety. It mostly shows up in the last 10 or 15 minutes of the session... when I know it is soon time to leave and I won't be seeing him for a whole week. Ugh. It was much easier when I saw him 2x per week.

.....................all the stuff I read.... it's all knowledge... Then I began to feel it and it became real.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

i can relate so much with it showing up in the last 10 or 15 minutes of the session....and I have brought it up in session when it is happening. no real solid solution to stopping it from happening though (if it is something that should be stopped). when I see the end of the session coming, i feel inside "No...no...i just want to stay here with her."

I have told my therapist I wish she could come home with me or I home with her, so that I could fall asleep in her arms like a baby would. it would be nice to sleep without nightmares or waking up and freaking out (there's that "freaking out" phrase again) or just not being able to sleep in general.

but i always have to leave therapy and leave her behind.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
almeda24fan said:
I love this thread Ipse! Yes, I have felt anxiety but in a good way if that makes sense.

I had a great session today and love my therapist...stay tuned until next week...giggle....

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

i'm glad the thread gives you some good.

i'm not sure about anxiety being felt in a "good way"...I don't know how to feel "good anxiety".

i'm also curious about the "giggle"...but curiosity isn't always a good thing.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Ipse_Dixit said: but i always have to leave therapy and leave her behind.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

i can totally understand how painful it is to let go, even just at the end of every session... physically leaving T behind is always very hard... it has, and i am sure will continue to be, something i struggle immensely with... but more so lately, i am finding it easier to take her with me, in my mind, and in my heart at least...

T is on vacation til next Wednesday and although this past week has been difficult, i have taken a great deal of comfort from thinking about the stuff she says, the warmth and understanding i see in her eyes... i imagine her smile and how it makes me feel on top of the world making her laugh...

i have tried especially hard this break to focus on all the positive stuff we have in our relationship... and it has made a difference... but at the same time i know what you mean... about leaving her behind... i don’t always manage to think good things... a lot of the time i get angry... upset... frustrated... desperate...

but i guess what i am trying to say is, you don’t leave her behind... not completely...

because i struggle so much with worrying if T will come back after the break and things will be ok between us, i think one of the things that has helped me most this break has been that i finally managed to find enough courage to ask her to write me something on the back of one of her business cards... i said it could just be something like “you will be ok, and we will be ok, and i will see you again on Weds 30th June”... and she said she would be pleased to do that...

then when i saw her on the last session before the break, she gave me her card, and when i turned it over she had squashed two short paragraphs onto it! i was really touched and have kept it close to hand the whole time she has been gone... it helped more than i could have imagined...

but anyway, i am sorry to have gone off on a tangent... just want you to know that in time, you can take T with you, not in the way you want, but its still a powerful, positive way... that can feel great...

I think there are often two components to things; the actual situation and then how we feel about the actual situation; if I can't deal with the situation, sometimes I work with the feeling :-)

I find it interesting, Ipse, that you downgraded the "freaked out" to just "anxious" and commented that everyone has their own idea of anxious. I try to remember that there are "degrees" of my own anxiety too and if I'm working with a situation that's difficult but "necessary" for me (attachment) then I try to make myself more "comfortable" with working on it since I can't "solve" it right away. I think your idea of doing this poll and seeing that other people have problems too is a neat idea. I work from inside myself too, do questions like "So what?" and "Who else will know or be affected?" or "How else should you feel or would you expect to feel?" to quiet my anxiety a bit. I'm a very good ignorer too sometimes, so can change my focus to the work instead of how I feel about it occasionally, so the feeling isn't so in the way. My favorite though is similar to how I work with the distracting "voices" in my head commenting on things; I get "aggressive" and pugnacious :-) and in their face, challenging them, and they get remarkably weaker/less vocal, LOL.

Wow. I am just blown away. I thought there was something seriously wrong with me because of my attachment and feelings for my therapist. Oh my God the feelings themselves have upset me so much. Which is why it upset me soooo much when he told I wasn't physically attractive to him and so he would not date me (if he wasn't already married and already my therapist, etc.) I just freeze up towards the end of the session knowing I can't take him with me. I sort of half joke with him that I wish he would adopt me like a lost puppy and take me home with him. I would follow him around just like one I am so attached to him. He is on vacation right now and it is brutal. He has said nice things to me in the past, like he understands and affirms that this may be the most important relationship in my life and it is okay and it is a treasure to cherish. he never makes fun of me at all about my feelings for him. I have had sexual fantasies about him a few times over the years and he knows that too. It has been so brutal for me dealing with this issue of my feelings because of my history with my father . I had sex with my father till I was , like, 31. I did not start till I was older though, 19 or 20. I was coming from a very screwed-up life and I genuinely thought being sexual with him would lead him to loving me when he said he did not. (That went on for years as I say and it was soooooooo painful; it just broke my heart that I was not good enough for him to love me and particularly that I was not pretty enough for him to love me (though in retrospect he DID get erections.) So you can imagine how hurtful it felt when my therapist, who I am so attached to and love, told me I was not psychically attractive enough for him. It just blew out of the water. I am okay now though I have not been able to talk to him since cause he's on vacation ....! I have another 8 days to go before our next scheduled appointment. I have been writing him letters about my hurt feelings because he lets me do that since sometimes I am uncomfortable talking about things in person or I need to talk to him between sessions in my head. But I am not crazy or stupid! Others fall in love with their therapists too! This happened one time before many many years ago .... although I was not with that therapist for very long compared to this one... and we ended up sleeping together. My current therapist knows this too. (That therapist stopped our relationship by resigning from his post.) I have so much shame and hurt from these two relationships ... one with my father and the other with the old therapist years ago. Sometimes I just feel so alone and so obsessed and so confused. I am so thankful for this website and particularly this post. Thank you thank you thank you. I can't wait to tell my T about it!

Hi Ipse, I was responding to your question and referring to my attachment with my T. I do have anxiety and that isn't always good but I'm starting to see the point of the attachment so I'm feeling better about it.

I have a habit of not explaining things fully. sorry about that. Oh and the "giggle" is my way of making a joke that this could all change for me next week depending on how the session goes. But I hope not. I probably could've left the humor out as that doesn't help you much. I'm sorry I hope I didn't offend you.

I am impressed with your posts and progress! You seem to be truly giving all of this attachment a good thought. That is what therapy is all about.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
amuseable said:
[he has said] this may be the most important relationship in my life and it is okay and it is a treasure to cherish. he never makes fun of me at all about my feelings for him. I have had sexual fantasies about him a few times over the years and he knows that too. It has been so brutal for me dealing with this issue of my feelings because of my history with my father .........Thank you thank you thank you. I can't wait to tell my T about it!

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

i can relate with the sexual feelings and fantasies and the difficulty dealing with it in the present because of the past.

My therapist knows of my sexual fantasies. And I too often write things out, because I don't know how to speak them out loud. I like to write (want to do that for a living) and have written out my fantasies in short story form...and gave it to her in 3 stages. The last one ended up being very explicit. I'm still not sure how comfortable she was with the details. (But it was basically me pleasuring her and when it came to her pleasuring me, it organically came out in the writing that I couldn't let her do it and I fell away and wanted to run away.) Upon discussing the it, my T was very careful (it seemed) to not talk about any of the things in an explicit way. One session I went through an exercise (knowing and telling her it was an exercise) and wrote out this things and spoke it to her, expressing my love and that I was declaring my intent of us becoming wed someday. It was an exercise, just to say something over the top and it see how felt. And it was connected to me giving her a "prop" gift. Not a "real" gift that was over the top and intimate.

What I really would love to do is just kiss her long and deeply. And she knows that too. Forget the explicit sexual act. A kiss of that type seems much more intimate than anything else. But "luckily" (or not so luckily to some parts of my emotions) she has never done anything to make that kiss seem possible.

My sexual abuses earlier in life and an oversexualized relationship with my mother has sullied my ability to have relationships without sexualizing them.

....And no need to thank me in any way. I selfishly made the poll and question for myself.....and was just building off of questions others have posted in other forum threads (like pinksoil's threads). But I don't want to diminish our "thanks" so I'm glad though it has been constructive for you to have this post.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
almeda24fan said:
Hi Ipse, I was responding to your question and referring to my attachment with my T. I do have anxiety and that isn't always good but I'm starting to see the point of the attachment so I'm feeling better about it.

I have a habit of not explaining things fully. sorry about that. Oh and the "giggle" is my way of making a joke that this could all change for me next week depending on how the session goes. But I hope not. I probably could've left the humor out as that doesn't help you much. I'm sorry I hope I didn't offend you.

I am impressed with your posts and progress! You seem to be truly giving all of this attachment a good thought. That is what therapy is all about.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

No offense at all. I was just trying to get some insight on what "good anxiety" might be. And if you feel a need to use humor, don't hesitate. It is you taking care of you.

My therapist has said explicity that "attachment" is good in ways because it means "trust" is growing. My health insurance provider, on the other hand, has explicity said that they have concerns I'm becoming too attached and not making progress to expand into the world. My therapist tried to explain to the them that me becoming attached is progress. She told them she doesn't see attachment as me "getting worse" but as me getting better. (Once again, I hear what she says "logically" but my "emotional self" doesn't know what the heck she is saying. )

The insurance company requires treatment plans to be submitted by my therapist, in order for them to approve visits. I once wrote up my version of the treatment plan. My therapist used some of it but in general needs to write it up herself, but she was very welcoming of my input. One thing I wrote in my plan about attachment was this (note I wrote it in third-person" so any "he" references refers to me):

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
The longer he puts up with the fears and anxieties surrounding this attachment and, in the capable care of a therapist who guides his awareness, as he experiences that he not being hurt and is accepted just as he is, the closer he comes to breaking the old pattern and emerging into a new and healthier self-awareness.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

And the very last part of my treatment plan, a part of me that I have dubbed my "supportive voice", wrote this:

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
His healing is not envisioned with a “this is good enough for him to get by” approach. Such an approach would dishonor him and would, in part, be condoning the abuses he suffered. His healing is envisioned as something bolder, something that acknowledges the fact that every human deserves to have peace and dignity, a vision where he intimately knows this and fearlessly follows the calling to live that in his own life, for self and for others who pass on the journey.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

In a questionarre I gave to my therapist to answer before I returned from my therapist break, I explicity asked her she thinks that kind of vision of healing is appropriate for the therapeutic setting.

Sometimes I get in more lucid and positive moods and I believe that these visions can be achieved, even if not completely in therapy but in life in general. But my "lucid and positive moods" are extremely rare. So follow-through is rare.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Ipse_Dixit said:
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
almeda24fan said:
Hi Ipse, I was responding to your question and referring to my attachment with my T. I do have anxiety and that isn't always good but I'm starting to see the point of the attachment so I'm feeling better about it.

I have a habit of not explaining things fully. sorry about that. Oh and the "giggle" is my way of making a joke that this could all change for me next week depending on how the session goes. But I hope not. I probably could've left the humor out as that doesn't help you much. I'm sorry I hope I didn't offend you.

I am impressed with your posts and progress! You seem to be truly giving all of this attachment a good thought. That is what therapy is all about.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

No offense at all. I was just trying to get some insight on what "good anxiety" might be. And if you feel a need to use humor, don't hesitate. It is you taking care of you.

My therapist has said explicity that "attachment" is good in ways because it means "trust" is growing. My health insurance provider, on the other hand, has explicity said that they have concerns I'm becoming too attached and not making progress to expand into the world. My therapist tried to explain to the them that me becoming attached is progress. She told them she doesn't see attachment as me "getting worse" but as me getting better. (Once again, I hear what she says "logically" but my "emotional self" doesn't know what the heck she is saying. )

The insurance company requires treatment plans to be submitted by my therapist, in order for them to approve visits. I once wrote up my version of the treatment plan. My therapist used some of it but in general needs to write it up herself, but she was very welcoming of my input. One thing I wrote in my plan about attachment was this (note I wrote it in third-person" so any "he" references refers to me):

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

This resonates very well with me. I'll bet this is what my insurance company was trying to do to me. Attachment is progress in my mind but it is not without its pain for us.

I'm sorry your insurance is putting their needs ahead of yours. They are so ignorant that they do not care to understand the hurt they cause.

Do you have an HMO or PPO? I am moving to a PPO and my T seems happy about that so maybe I should happy. I may have missed you saying previously what your insurance type is...not that it should matter but HMO's are AWFUL.

I have a PPO. In general, I suppose my insurance has been very good at paying.

But since I've been going 3 years and I have not improved as quickly as they would like according to their "one-size-fits-all" approach to therapy....they began that questioning of my progress. And in essense it made me question myself and continues to make me question myself. Before the insurance began to question, I was steaming along in therapy (from my estimation) and focusing on the task at hand (i.e. the things that caused me to seek therapy in the first place, things that were there before i even knew my therapist existed or even had this insurance provider). But the insurance questioning threw that proverbal wrench into the gears and i was no longer steaming along.

I contacted the insurance company and wrote two explicit letters describing how they have injured me with their tactless and cold approach. It wasn't even about how much they paid or not paid, but just how they handled expressing themselves and how, if they were more considerate and had more tact they could have avoided me thinking something is wrong with me.

My most recent letter really laid things out explictly and i likened them to: a masked stranger pulling me into a back ally and violating my most private parts, all the while whispering, “This is for your own good,” in a sweet, but self-indulgent and immoral tone. So, finding myself in that horror, I begin to shut down. I just give in, close myself up once again until another of my life’s violations is over. Then I go bury myself somewhere in isolation, physically throttling myself and calling myself horrible things.

There were other things in the letter, but it was enough to make them start a review and, although I had to call the representative who is handling it, the representative spoke to me for about an hour and was very apologetic about the entire thing.

I still don't think they "get it", because I still have to figure a way to help my emotions to know i'm not forever broken and unfixable, to help my emotions see i am not beyond hope.

before the insurance injected their opinion into the process, my therapist's belief in me was strong enough help me believe there was hope. not so easy now.

Yeah see, insurance is evil. How dare they determine for you, who they have never met by the way, when your treatment is progressing or not progressing. All they are looking at is cost of care depending on the diagnosis code and treatment plan submitted by your therapist to them.

We are numbers and names only to them. I know therapists hate this abuse by insurance companies. I've heard it.

I hope your issue gets resolved and the only resolution is to leave you and your therapist alone....how's that?

I have a question on insurance and PPOs. I have a PPO and they will pay for 20 mental health outpatient visits a year. (They will not pay at all, though, for my current therapist because they don't like his credentials, but that's another story.) Anyway, if you stick within your allowed 20 visits a year, can they still ask questions? I mean, they say they will allow 20 visits, so it should be no questions asked, right? As long as the diagnosis code is one they reimburse for. After 20 visits, you pay yourself. I guess I don't understand how the PPO can be hounding someone (and their therapist) if they are within their 20 (or whatever) allotted visits.

When I did go to see a previous counselor that my insurance would reimburse, I had about 8 visits at the end of one calendar year and about 15 visits the following year before I dropped her. I had no problem getting reimbursement through insurance since I was under 20 visits per year. If I was over 20 visits, I would realize that and not submit to insurance for reimbursement since they wouldn't pay.

I guess I don't understand why a PPO wouldn't pay if you are within your allotted number of visits. Do they monitor consecutive years? Like if you asked for reimbursement for 20 visits, 3 years in a row, maybe they wouldn't like that, even though it is within your allotted number of visits?

Sorry, this is so wordy! I am always interested in understanding insurance, as I like to get every penny I can out of mine.