I told T that I feel no matter how many hoops I make her jump through to prove herself to me, it doesnt change how I feel inside..T said because trust is a feeling you have its not what someone does...you just trust....I said that means then I have to learn to trust inside of me...to know if someone does something that "lets me down" that I am ok with me still???

I think when your looking for trust in someone, your measuring everything about them....they become magnified...trust can't be made this way....because under a magnifying glass, everyone comes up short....

I guess I'm judging people by their actions and not by who they are???

Yes trust is a feeling...I think because someone like T has that feeling..people naturally respond "to her" in a trustworthy way...if you greet someone in an hostile way...they are going to react and not respond...

HHmmm it seems trust is a much simpiler thing to have then I am thinking...I asked T why don't I trust? what am I afraid o? she tipped her back and thought for a way of putting it to me...the replied...because people have let you down...I guess as an adult I can cope emotionally better now if people let me down...trust is for me to have and not for them to prove??? taking back my power???

[MissCharlotte]

((Mouse))

Trust and personal power are two hot topics for me as well. They come up over and over. I wonder if the problem we have in trusting is also reflected in how we view/trust ourselves. Maybe if we trust ourselves then we can begin to trust others?

I just had a conversation with T about power. I told him that I don't believe that I have any power...that power is really an illusion. He said that maybe I was confusing power and control...because so many "bad" things have happened to me. I guess this is similar to what your T said about being let down.

So, yes, in a sense, I believe that reclaiming power is in order. But, for me, I have to get to a place where I know that it is possible. Or do we "fake it till we make it?"

Interesting topic, Mouse.

[ErinBear]

Hi Mouse,

This is a hard one for a lot of us, I think. Trust, that is. I think it is a feeling, but it is also a choice. I can make a conscious decision to trust somebody, or not. I also think those feelings and choices can indeed be influenced by the actions of that other person. If somebody continually treats me with respect, thoughtfulness, and kindness, I may find it easier to trust that person over time. Then again, if somebody behaves in ways that are less than ideal, ways that are damaging or inconsiderate or coarse (or worse), either infrequently or on a regular basis, then I may have less trust for that person - often for good reason.

Sometimes I give people the benefit of the doubt if they have had an occasional lapse of behavior, especially if I am still getting to know them. Usually I've been glad I did this. I know my life has been rough, and trust doesn't always come easily to me. Nobody is perfect, and I'm not either! Somebody who is really un-trust-worthy will declare themselves sooner or later. I think, at least for myself, I tend to be overly wary and need to give people (and myself) a chance.

I'm working on trust now, too, trying to work on building a better relationship with my T. It really is work for me. I'm trying to focus more on the good things about him, and the good things in the working relationship so far, and hope things will continue to improve. I am trying to be more brave in our work each session, and hope that will help also. So this is an issue I am working on as well.

I wish you all the best.

Take care,
ErinBear

[DePressMe]

“I guess I'm judging people by their actions and not by who they are???”

Yes in some ways I think trust is a feeling but, I need to also base some of my trust of people on their actions. Everybody will fall short of my Golden Standard, but there is a reasonable in between. I trust my T because I think she has my best interest at heart and because she has proven to me that she will be there for me when I need her. She has also proven she knows “what she is talking about.”

With people in general I do tend to base my trust on actions and then as I get to know them, my trust grows deeper and I think that trust is often based on intentions. Maybe a balance of intentions and actions.

For everything I have been through I find that I trust too many people with too much…up to a point. I tend to look at the world and its people as trustworthy. But, the deep parts of me sometimes are unreachable to even my closest friends. Its like my trust reaches a certain level and then stops.

[withit]

Yeah, Mouse, I've been thinking about this trust issue as well. I used to think it's about the other person doing the 'right' thing, behaving in the 'right' way, and then I can trust them. But I realized, in discussing this with t, that trust is more like, how shall I put it, "I trust my own perceptions'', t doesn't have to do the right thing in order for me to trust her, rather, I need to feel secure in my own perceptions of my needs and trust my perceptions of my needs, and then communicate them to t. To rephrase, I need to trust myself to be aware of my needs, and when t (or other) behaves (or doesn't) in a way that is consistent with my needs, that I am aware of that. I can communicate that. If t consistently doesn't tune into my needs (need for empathy, vaildation, listening, being present, etc.) I will not trust her to be there for me. But trust begins with me. Am I making sense here?

I want to add that when I began the journey of psychotherapy about a decade ago, I did not trust myself. Depended on others to 'be there' for me, and if they weren't I blamed them. I've since learned that I need to be aware of what I need (or don't) and communicate that to the other, so they can be responsive.

Withit. "Depended on others to be there for me"" YES! thats exactly what I've realised yesterday and today...that small dependent child in me is the one still doing the judging and trusting...I "see" this now but am afraid of not having the need to trust in the way I need to trust at the moment still...crazy? I'm afraid If I am not relying on someone else to do/be for me, then I'll be all alone...its almost like I need to not trust so I can continue to try and find trust...but trust in the needy way...my old way doesnt want to change...I have an idea of what it would be like be free of this needy trust but can't quite grasp it and use it yet...I get butterflys in my stomach then it goes...to not depend on someone to do for me is scary...I mean I'd be a big grown up then wouldnt I? LOL! ...

I thinkn I want to continue this topic on friday with T though...I think I almost have the thread through the eye of the needle..

Erin, I do wonder though if we trust someone who declares themselves untrustworthy, if they won't eventually become true to themselves if they are treated in a trustful fashion by others??? I mean I was/am untrustworthy at times but find I can't with T because I feel the trust she has in me...does that make sense???

Depressme, I found/find I tend to trust people who I know are at a place where they can't be trustworthy at this point in their life...theres something familiar in being let down for me I think...

edited for supidddddddd spelling mistakes AGAIN LOL

[Perna]

I have a neat "example"/story I use for myself about trust.

My T was not born and raised in the United States (or speaking English) so her whole background and culture was different from my own. One session I spent a long time discussing how my plants around my house (on nearly an acre and backing to a State Park so semi "rural") were way overgrown and there was kudzu and creeper taking over my 80 year old hemlocks and too much poison ivy and my hedges in front were obscuring my windows, etc. and I'd bought a weed-whacker but I just couldn't "do" the landscaping myself, there was too much to do and it was too wild and besides, I didn't know how to mix gas and oil to run the weed-whacker and I was afraid of it and how I'd once bought myself an expensive chainsaw :-) but was terrified of that, etc.; I just waste money and think I'll do things but don't/can't and the darn plants just keep growing and that made me more anxious, depressed and ashamed, etc. I went on and on and my T was listening very closely and looking very sympathetic and was "with me" I could tell. It felt good.

The end of my discussing the plants and weed-whacker and how ashamed I was etc. happened to coincide with the end of the session and we were winding down/getting ready to leave and my T suddenly asked, "What's a weed-whacker?" I froze and then quietly explained what it was and it turned out she had thought all along that I lived in a row/townhouse with little property, had no clue I had such a big house/yard. I was momentarily crushed but then "remembered" her quality of listening, her wanting to be "with" me and understand/share my experience and I realized the intent had turned into the reality for me; she was with me and it didn't matter if I had been spouting Turkish, I knew I could always "trust" my T to do her darnedest to be with me/on the same page I was.

mouse_, you said: </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
trust is for me to have and not for them to prove???

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Yes I guess it is, isn't it. And that's why I can't hold onto it when I think I've found it. I am not feeling trust,, I'm judging the other person based on what they've done / hoops they've jumped through as you say . That means it it comes and goes. When it's there I feel content, happy, secure, cared about and when it isn't I feel disappointed, betrayed, insecure, unloved.

But yet they have to earn it, don't they? I mean it isn't just something in me that I can allow always. There are conditions and they protect me from untrustworthy ones.

Or is it just my voice that does that, that defines trust the way I see it and want it and expect it.. by setting boundaries about it.

I don't know but you have me thinking more about it.

I was just chatting with my "normal" husband...He just trusts...I asked him does he just trust anyone? He said yes, but sometimes thats his downfall..he mentioned how he bought some tickets of Ebay and the guy was a freud...hubby said because he trusted the guys good will he got %#@&#! on...so I said yes but you now are weary of buying things online, but it hasn't crushed you? Hasnt destroyed your ability to trust, you will continue to trust others in life? He said "oh yeah, but I'd think twice before I just buy something"..

I guess for "us" we have had a trust in all areas of our life destroyed??? its not such a bit event for hubby to have been ripped off once, he continues on..where as I/we tend to let it rule our lifes afterwards?

mouse, i just had a thread a while ago about trust. What i discovered is that trust is not "a" thing or "a" feeling. The word is misleading because it makes it seem like there is a definition, and really there isn't. You have to figure out what it means for you, and that means wading through all the extra stuff you are putting in there. I am surprised but not surprised your T offered you a definition. i mean she knows you right? not me, but she might have hit right on it yet either. My T hadn't. He talked about me "trusting" in what he had to say, and believing him, seeing him as an anchor... which is all true, but that isn't it for me. It isn't even about feeling ok with spilling my guts... or caring if he runs away screaming (like i'd give a $hit). For me it got nailed down to me feeling like he would be able to hear what i wasn't saying... that he would know when i was crying inside even if i couldn't cry outside.. that he would validate and recognize the level of crap i've dealt with.

So, maybe you could start there.. who do you feel you trust? why? then what is different about trusting a t? and so on.

mouse_

I think what makes your hubby decide he can still trust but 'think twice' next time is a different internal response than what we have.

For us it reinforces thoughts we already have.. that we shouldn't trust because we will get hurt, taken, used, etc. like you said.. we would never go buy off ebay again.

we don't see all the possibilites between Yes and No and No is safer. also requires less thinking and work so that makes it attractive to me, though I'm not lazy but I do take the easy way out often.

i think we have to listen hard to what we're telling ourselves when we say "don't trust" and then maybe we can figure it out. what do you think?

Echoes, your last point "Listen to why we dont trust" I think is the crux of the problem. I even felt resistence to your question because part of me uses not trusting as a defence. Trust can be as simple as a decision one can make. But I think I am choosing not to trust. But its a choice I seem to be powerless over at the moment? Or is that just because I'd not said its a choice before? Maybe?

I remember T telling me when I told her I wanted to use, she said thats a choice I am making. I wanted to scream, "NO, NO,its not" alas I've found out it is.

I guess its connected with learned helplessness? Its hard taking back the power???

[Perna]

You know about the saying, "Feeling the fear but do it anyway"? Trust can work like that if you want. I take things to their logical extreme and then figure I can "live through" whatever bad thing(s) might happen so give it a try.

Each "act" is only one in a lifetime of thoughts, feelings, actions we do so it's like that funny TV ad we have here for a science show with an astrophysicist who goes around his neighborhood and all the people (I think it's New York) know him and ask him questions about "the universe" :-) and at one point he tells a guy to think of a question because "you don't meet an astrophysicist everyday" and does this complicated calculation sequence and figures out one's chances of meeting one are only one in a million :-) Any single act of trust can be like that, maybe extremely important but also not necessarily horrible if it goes wrong.

I talked about Trust again on Friday. I said ok what about if you know someone and tell them something personal and they go and spill the beans to someone else?

T said why should you be bothered what they tell to someone else? and why can't you trust them because of that?

Well I felt silly myself after that statement. I guess I saw my part in that senario. yet again it came back to me trusting myself and my reactions rather than labeling someone else trustworthy.

She did say afterwards, that trust comes in degrees and its not so easy to just pin point.

I guess its trusting our gut reactions in any situation rather than putting that power into someone else?

[MissCharlotte]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I was just chatting with my "normal" husband...He just trusts.

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Mouse,
My husband is the same way. I think the trust issue is one that can become particularly problematic for very early childhood abuse/abandonment/attachment issues?....just a thought, becaue it's such an issue for me as well.

I was reminded of a conversation I had with T early on in my therapy, when we were discussing my vulnerabilities. We were going back and forth and I said i didn't like revealing my vulnerable self, because if I did then I would have to trust him, and he replied, "bingo!"

So, the trust runs both ways and takes time to evolve and ebbs and flows. It's not static. Although, I have found that the deeper our relationship gets, more and more I trust T in a different way. It has become so much more than admitting my vulnerability. I just trust him to hold me in a way that I can begin to care for myself because I know the pieces that are left out will be carried by him until I can carry them all myself. I believe that this trust has grown out of a sense of safety, and a responsivity to my needs by him.

For example, yesterday I was feeling very disconnected and frightened and I placed a call to him. (On some level, when I get so disconnected I feel like he is gone too.) He wasn't able to call back till the end of the day and I had just gone out for a walk, so I missed his call. However, just knowing that he called back was enough for me. It reminded me that he was there, and in that message I was able to know that I was here, too... Today he called again, and a one minute conversation has shored me up tremendously.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I guess its trusting our gut reactions in any situation rather than putting that power into someone else

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Yes, Mouse, I believe it's about our own power and not other's....trusting ourselves so we can trust others....