[MissCharlotte]

Last week during session T & I were going back & forth on some topic I didn't necessarily agree with him on. (OH there's a novel situation) And he looked at me and asked, "Am I pushing you today?" And I nonchalently said, "A little." But what I was thinking deep down was, %#@&#! I can't believe you don't see my point here." Damned if I will show him my vulnerability on this topic, I have my pride after all.

So, I'm laying here wide awake thinking about tomorrow's session and hoping it doesn't turn into a shoving match. I have this fantasy of being able to tell T how and why he is wrong. It's probably what I need to do but when push comes to shove (hahaha) i lose my guts because I'm afraid of losing him... Why, in my mind, does it have to be all or nothing at all?

[Mouse_]

Sister, could you not just say "I'm finding it difficult seeing it your way"?

lol. i was reading shapiro the other day and he was talking about experience near modes of relating and about how to not get into shoving matches, basically.

what is the shoving match about?

is it a pattern that happens fairly regardless of content...
or is this particular content important to you.

what do you think?
what do you think he thinks?

[sunrise]

Well, this is interesting, sister. It made me wonder how often do I disagree with my T? I agree with him on a lot of things, and he always invites me to tell him if his interpretations are off base, and he isn't stubborn if I tell him he is not "right on" with his idea. He learns more about me by my acceptance/rejection of his interpretations. When we had the "rupture" session where I thought he was just boneheadedly wrong about some stuff with my husband and me, I did get angry at him, but we didn't have a shoving match. I'm not sure I know how to have a shoving match. Do the 2 people just restate their case over and over and refuse to budge? When that happens, I think it is perfectly fine to say, "looks like we won't be agreeing on this" and then change the subject. I think if the person has good data to support their case, then I can change my mind quite easily.

It must feel uncomfortable to be shoving with someone you like and respect so much. Maybe surprise him next time and refuse to play shove.

Good luck in your session today. Mine is today too.

[Perna]

I use to hate that, the struggle over which "way" to go. But then I'd remember that all my bright ideas hadn't worked in the past, had gotten me into seeing T in the first place so maybe I should at least try her way :-) I didn't give up that my way was probably better, LOL, but figured she was "weak" and we had to do it her way because she wasn't able to see it my way. I'm kind that way, could humor her ;-)

[sunrise]

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But then I'd remember that all my bright ideas hadn't worked in the past

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I think there's a little of that for me too. I am going to see my T because I need his expertise and wisdom. I know he doesn't have all the answers, but I have been willing to consider a lot from him and accept his ideas because I trust him so much and because of his wealth of experience. I think that is partly why we agree so much.

[MissCharlotte]

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what is the shoving match about?

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Alex, I think your question hits the nail on the head. The issue was not really important. It really didn't matter if I agreed with him or not, on the particlar topic because the only thing that matters there is what i belive and think. The "shoving" match is about me being able to "take my power" as T calls it. I wind up in that victim place and have a hard time climbing out of it. Otherwise, I wouldn't care what he thinks about this topic.

Thanks.

[MissCharlotte]

I think the term shoving match is a bit overused here!
Hi Sunny,

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Do the 2 people just restate their case over and over

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What I was trying to describe is much more subtle. I made a statement about how I handle something at home and T just made a statement about how he believes these things should be managed and then stated that he was sorry I felt differently but that was that. I wasn't able to speak up and disagree with him, but he knew, I suppose by my body language that I was not happy. Maybe it was the fact that I flipped him the bird (just kidding).

This was not a huge fight, nor even an argument. It was not a big deal, nor was it worth arguing. What is worth it, are my opinions on how I feel about this or any other topic, and I am working on my abillity to speak up a bit -- it's a big step for me. I know I have a big mouth here, but IRL I clam up a lot, because I feel vulnerable. This is a big part of my therapy.

Had a great session today! Lots of insights.

[MissCharlotte]

Thank you Mouse, Sunny, Alex, Perna,

Having suggestions of words to use is helpful. I am one of those who gets stuck in the victim role, simply because I have a lot of life experience in that role.

Can't go into detail but suffice it to say that my biography consists of multiple life events that have conspired to make me clam up. I am working on it, girlfriends.

Sister,
Do you think it would be easier to say something using humor to get your point across? I'm thinking something like, "T, I would totally agree with your opinion if it was right."
Just a thought. I'm still trying to get to the point where I can disagree with others and not worry about them getting angry/leaving, etc. I wish you the best of luck!!

[sunrise]

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sister said:
What is worth it, are my opinions on how I feel about this or any other topic, and I am working on my abillity to speak up a bit -- it's a big step for me.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">That is such a great goal to work on in therapy. Congrats on taking steps and moving closer to being able to do this.

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Had a great session today! Lots of insights.

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> I made a statement about how I handle something at home and T just made a statement about how he believes these things should be managed and then stated that he was sorry I felt differently...

It can feel quite threatening when we do or say something and someone else says 'you should have done / said this xxx'. Sometimes it can be a matter of me already feeling upset about what I've said / done...

It just doesn't feel very validating. Maybe if he had sympathised with what you had done from your perspective... Then you would have been better placed to hear his point of view.

> I wasn't able to speak up and disagree with him, but he knew, I suppose by my body language that I was not happy.

And then what did he do? Change the subject or something? I think that it would be understandable if you were feeling invalidated, misheard, and hence defensive about then. At least... That is how I would have felt.

> The "shoving" match is about me being able to "take my power" as T calls it. I wind up in that victim place and have a hard time climbing out of it.

I really hate the term 'victim role' because I think it is often misused. Or it is used as a condemnatory judgement. Sometimes it can be used to distance oneself from the person who is supposedly 'acting like a victim'. Nobody likes to feel powerless and nobody likes to feel criticised. It can be hard to speak up especially when one doesn't really know what is going on for oneself and especially when one doesn't really know how to express it.

Instead of 'shoving match' is it more that you withdraw / close up? Misattunement. I'm wondering if that is what it is. I bet your therapist notices, but he might not be sure what has triggered you into feeling defensive. I have a bit of a pattern of this too. When I feel misheard etc. Need more validation than most because I give myself a hell of a hard time already...

> I am working on my abillity to speak up a bit -- it's a big step for me. I know I have a big mouth here, but IRL I clam up a lot, because I feel vulnerable.

Yeah. Me too. You hang in there.

[sunrise]

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alexandra_k said:
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sister said:
I made a statement about how I handle something at home and T just made a statement about how he believes these things should be managed and then stated that he was sorry I felt differently...

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It can feel quite threatening when we do or say something and someone else says 'you should have done / said this xxx'. Sometimes it can be a matter of me already feeling upset about what I've said / done...

It just doesn't feel very validating. Maybe if he had sympathised with what you had done from your perspective... Then you would have been better placed to hear his point of view.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">sister, I was reminded of what you wrote once about how your T sometimes says, "sister, I have a fantasy that...." and then he says his point of view or idea. I think that is a really non-threatening way to state an opinion that may differ from the person you are talking to. The reason I thought of this is that yesterday in my session, my T, who has never said this before, said, "sunny, I have a fantasy that..." and then he said his vision of how he would like things to go. When he said this, I was thinking, hey, just like sister's T! They must have gone to the same school or something. So I thought of you in therapy yesterday, sister!

[MissCharlotte]

Hey Alex, Sunny,

I feel like we've gotten a little off track here. This was not a big argument by any stretch of imagination. It was good natured. And, T did ask me if it felt like he was pushing me, and I said yes, a little.

He did not use the term victim...I used it here to try and explain the role I was in just at that moment. T did not put me there--I put me there. I dont think I misused the term, and it was not misattunement. I was right there in the conversation with him. I simply could not gather up the necessary guts to state my case. I think he knew it. It's something I'm working on.

However, Alex, you are right...he should have validated my position and THEN disagreed. It would have been easier to swallow. They way he did it was rather smug.

What I was kind of wondering aloud in this thread was my own fantasy of (1) being able to state my case simply and clearly without shaky voice and racing heart and (2) I said "shoving match" only to capture the feeling of his initial question about pushing, sort of my fantasy of pushing back. And also, the all or nothing statement I made had to do with my relative inability to validate also. I could have said to him, Yeah I know what you mean but this is how I do it.

I smell another thread.

Hey Sunny, don't you love that T has a fantasy with you in it? MMMMM yeah!!!!