[Calilady]

I talked to my T earlier this week. She gave me exactly 5 minutes on the phone. The goal was to try and go this week, bullsh-t to buy me time for the insurance reimbursements to kick in and end things on a fade-out note, which I have NEVER been able to do once attached.

While on the phone with her, I asked her if she intentionally triggered me. she said no. I told her how I drove away crying, numb, tears flowing out of my eyes. I felt like I was 10 years old and re-traumatized and she didn't even see any of this. I had just repeatedly asked her to "see" me and she didn't notice how I was struggling. She said we could go as gentle and soft as we needed and that her office was "safe," but I'm not sure if it is or really, what's my motivation for going- so what if she starts to bill me. She's gonna get paid (through my insurance).

I told her it hurt when she called me "rude" and said, "it's not always about you, (my name)" in a tone that I've never heard her speak to me before, but if I'm being honest, our connection began to wane the month before. I didn't feel her engaged with me.

Her reply was an animated, "I don't mean to intentionally hurt you, but you've been like this since day one. I'm not going to sugarcoat it anymore. They're your relationships. I don't care if you I'm stored as a contact in your phone, she (my friend) does. I don't. You're the one damaging your relationships, not mine." I've only heard her speak to me once before like that, when she called me rude the week before, but she had backed out of that energy and eased up when she saw my reaction. This time she was harsh the entire time.

Judged. Shamed. Guilted. At 16 years old, I shut down. I haven't had a female platonic connection from 16 to 35- now for my T. I shut down because I just wasn't good at it. Those damn "more-than" feelings for girls that ended up being an attraction. From 18 to 33, I didn't even let myself explore the possibility of getting close to a female. When I shut down, I...shut...it...down. Cut that part of myself off. I stood there, waiting for her to give me an appointment time, thinking "I can't let her see me cry. If I can make it to the car, I'll be safe."

I pondered doing that again after the last session (going numb, shutting down again, detaching from all of my feelings). Near the end of session, I told her what I needed as far as feeling "seen" and asked if she could provide that to me...she said "yes" while looking at her computer monitor. At the end of session, she asked if I wanted to see her stationary and I barely maintained composure once I walked out the door.

I just don't know if I can fake it to buy me more time for the insurance reimbursements to kick in. If I cancel, I'm going to have to pay the $125 fee. Ugh...

[Calilady]

All of my life, I've been telling people if they've hurt me and they've always given me a reason why.

The last time i felt I needed to get away from someone like that was w/my dad. I went over to my parents house and asked my mom what she did while dad watched golf. I was joking.
Twenty minutes later he looked me in the eye and just out of the blue very seriously said that they really reconsidered having another child after me, because of how jacked up I was when I came out.

The next day my mom called and said that although he did say it kinda ugly and in a bad tone, that he didn't mean it and that it's because I'm critical and I always have been. It was a joke, I said. She defended him.

And that was when I was 33.

T's words hurt me, right after I opened up about how she hurt me the time before. She gave me a reason why she hurt me, but said it was unintentional. I don't trust her. I'm really not sure if I can do this or what's the point. Am I supposed to do it again? Tell her how she hurt me, only for it to be defended and then hurt some more?

[growlycat]

Wow I'm sorry your t sounds impatient and brittle. Sure something may be going on in her own life but it sounds like it could be spilling over into your therapy. Can you give her the specifics that are hurting you, like when she was looking at her computer screen after you said you needed to be seen?

My old long term t could be frustrating like this. Specific instances seemed to help him see his part in the interaction

[feileacan]

I have read about your therapy stories and I'm not sure what to make of them. You clearly seem unhappy with her and there are some things which point that she might not be good enough for you but otherwise I personally see nothing particularly unprofessional in the things she has told you.

You say that you feel like a 10 years old again and I think that's great. Sure, it feels unpleasant but this is actually the therapy material to work with. In the transference you feel with her the same way as you felt when you were 10 years old, the same feelings are activated. This means that there are some hurt and difficult feelings stored in your 10 year old self that need to be processed, otherwise they wouldn't have been activated that forcefully. It is your opportunity now to talk about those feelings honestly to your T and in her responses you will see whether she can truly help you or not.

I think that confrontation has its part in therapy. By saying that she doesn't care if she is stored in your phone but your friend does I hear that she is confronting your behaviour, calling you to think about why you do the things you do and asking you to consider what effect it has on others (your friend). It doesn't mean she doesn't care about you but it wouldn't be ethical for her to care about being in your phone though.

For some reason this confrontation triggered very intense feelings in you and I would suggest you go and talk to her about it, try not to shut down, try to tell her exactly how you feel without worrying about her. If she knows how to do her job she will help you, if she becomes defensive (which I don't think she has so far), starts blaming you (which I thinks she hasn't done either) or gets hurt by your words then sure, you need a new therapist. But now it seems to me that you have just reached some real stuff to work with Unfortunately this real stuff is always painful and unpleasant - otherwise you wouldn't need to be in therapy in the first place.

[Calilady]

I tried to point things out to her last time. I heard that I wanted her to fail, that I've been looking for a reason to a bail, and that I'm pointing all fingers at her.

I told her I'm trying to help her, help me.

She said I said the equivalent of, "***** you" last time when that is so not what I meant. I felt what I was saying was falling on deaf ears. I felt hopeless.

I'm confused because I don't want to be avoidant. But what she said elicited shame and guilt. I felt two inches tall. It didn't inspire improvement. And then I'm attached. For an avoidant to allow that to happen and then detach. Painful.

I'm trying to do the right thing. I really am. I have enough guilt and shame to last a lifetime. Hence, coming out at 35.

I don't know what to do tomorrow.

Can attachment trauma be healed in a one-sided (therapeutic) relationship? Especially with one who doesn't specialize in attachment trauma.

It's all about doing the right thing, because my history is to become attached to cold/distant women. It's all muddled and confusing. I just want to heal.

am I being offered a reparative experience through this or duplicating the past?? Ugh...

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by Calilady

But what she said elicited shame and guilt. I felt two inches tall. It didn't inspire improvement. And then I'm attached. For an avoidant to allow that to happen and then detach. Painful.

I'm trying to do the right thing. I really am. I have enough guilt and shame to last a lifetime. Hence, coming out at 35.

My understanding is that therapy work can happen when painful feelings come out. Your feelings of shame and guilt came out and they cause you pain. I don't think she elicited them on purpose (as of having an agenda to purposefully say things that would make you feel that way) but the whole point of therapy is to draw out your painful feelings so they can be worked with. For some people these feelings are about anger and rage, for someone else they are related to fear of abandonment, for you right now they seem to be about shame and guilt. Therapy is not about feeling well (unless the goal is to build more defences on top of everything), therapy is about facing and addressing your painful feelings that the therapy relationship draws out. So, this has happened, you have your painful feelings. The question is now what you are going to do with them. Are you trying to get rid of them and cover them with something or are you willing to process them?

There is no right thing to do in therapy. This means that you can't do the wrong thing anyway. You don't have to please your therapist, you don't have to try to be nice to her, you only have to be the way you are, bring yourself there the way you are, talk about your feelings, which I think currently means that you feel hurt by your therapist, and that's it. That's all you have to do. There is no right thing to do that would keep you from feeling difficult feelings because the therapy is about bringing out the difficult feelings so that they could be worked with. If you have had lifelong problems with guilt and shame then it means that these feelings must come to your therapy in order to work with them. And they have already come. This is the therapy work.

Sure, not everyone wants or should want this type of therapy. Some people just want support and that's very reasonable too, in which case the goal of the therapist is to help you build extra defences against painful feelings that lurk below the surface. I've understood from your previous posts that you would like to work with attachment problems and other more deep things. Unfortunately this work means addressing and tolerating your painful feelings, it's far from the peaceful bliss where you feel nice and fuzzy with your therapist and the goal of your therapist is not to make you feel good but help you face and work through these painful feelings you have in yourself.

Feleacan - two very good post. I think a lot of PC'ers, old and new, who are at odds with their therapist and wanting to bail or take breaks are rejecting the "process of therapy," I'm referring to those of us with in secure/avoidant/disorganized attachment issues. I too, do not see this therapist words as offbase. If you asked me before I had what I consider successful attachment therapy, I would have said the therapist was rude and cancelled several sessions or bailed completely to "show her." It used to distress me to see the choruses of: find another therapist or shuck therapy altogether, which in some cases needed to happen, but in others it just added to the flames to what I saw as a reparable rupture, a process of the therapy. Now, it just makes me sad. This is my opinion only.

Calilady, my thinking leads me to wonder where you and your therapist would be if you had not put this rupture online for so many people to way in on, and fought it out between the two of you. Would you be even more confused or less confused?

My therapist made statements in the thick of things that if presented out of context I would been finding a new therapist after every session and most definitely if posted many posters would say she is out of line. I did try to lesson "her" burden of "me" by looking for a second therapist which she disagreed with, but would not stop me. My therapist always tied in that my transference moments were me not willing to let go of the need to change myself so that I could be the perfect child that my perfect mother needed. I was 50 and felt like an infant, a 10 year old school girl, an unruly teen, and a heterosexual women that experienced erotic transference for my female therapist. Their was most always three people in the therapy space, but one person, my mother lived 2,000 miles away. The fantasy is gone and I live not a perfect life, but a life where when statements your therapist made (no matter who thy are made by), don't sting and throw me off course which would in the past made me suicidal. Now words like that are just a blink that doesn't hook into old trauma, because the early traumas have already been processed. When things do become difficult chaos no longer happens in my mind and my life. I have learned how to get to a safer or more comfortable place in my head as natural process. I think this is what life is for those who didn't suffer the traumas we did in our family of origin (FOO). And, it's not a bad place to be.

[Calilady]

I guess it boils down to I don't feel safe and not sure I can trust her.

I had a lot of judgement, guilt and shame growing up. I had physical abuse and that I could handle...but the emotional comments from an attachment figure are much different for me.
If I wanted her to help me to recover from physical abuse, you wouldn't abuse me again, would you? Slap me around?

If you know I have these huge wounds re: relationships and I've always have had my attachment figures hyper critical, would you reinforce that by pointing in my face and say, "You're the one ruining them!" Because I left feeling like I should shut down again. The only thing that stopped me was having a strange interaction with a complete stranger who revitalized me in that moment and gave me hope.

My mom would point at me and say, "You're too much for these girls! You get too attached. It's you, not them." And what happened was that I shut down. She was right,
I mean, she's my mom. But now I have the option to NOT listen to this person and say F you. What I worry about happening is that we r so entrenched, she and I,
In what's going on between us and I have other things I'd like to get to. A broader picture

And is someone who consistently says "oh God, not again" when I slightly jokingly tell her it's hard to be there because I feel attached. But then again, God forbid I be real and not chuckle once or twice and say,
"it's hard for me to be here."

Working with attachment is working with trauma. It lights up a persons nervous system. I've read professionals discuss that you touch on the trauma and pull back. You calibrate accordingly, because it stirs up toxicity in the body. Last week was complete overload. Too much that was unintentional. That scares me. I'm starting to realize how much faith I'm putting into this person to help re-wire me. I also dont wanna loop patterns, because quite frankly, I could get that from my family and not pay them.

I struggle because I'm avoidant.
I also pick mean women to become attached to
I'm also codependent
I loop and loop and loop to stay attached rather than detaching
One of my lessons is to let go
Do I want to relive exact replicas with a professional who should yank me out of
The water when I'm drowning

I start to make a decision and then I see it from a million different angles and get stuck again. But standing there, judged/shamed, wanting to run to a safe place to cry and my attachment figure being none the wiser...how do I repair that in the duplication of
It? If I bring this up today and she starts to take it personally and we spend time talking about how I want her to fail, what then?

Where's catharsis? What's healing?

What I need is not judging, guilting or shaming. I need that as much as I need a whipping with a belt. I've had that plenty.

Calilady,

I'm sorry if you feel judged by my post, it was not meant that way. As for your therapist words, I am not able to understand that she was judging, guilting or shaming you, but I certainly can relate to your response to what she has said. If those are the only kinds of statements she given you in the time you've worked together, then you probably do need to find another therapist or brave it on your own finding other ways to move forward. When statements like that were made to me I had no other good experiences to hold onto. I had to unhook my past experiences to what is being said at that moment. It was not easy, because all the negative messages and violence flooded my system from head to toe, and ALWAYS left me in a flight or fight response. Where was the proof that this experience with my therapist would be different? That was where I had to finally heed her words to trust her and then I could learn to trust myself. That was the most frightening statement I ever had to deal with. Death seemed much easier.

Like others that have had issues with therapist, I do not believe working with a therapist is the only way to heal.

[feileacan]

It seems to me that you are expecting progress to be simpler and quicker than it is possible. Or you expect that you can heal your wounds without looking at them and cleaning them thoroughly, which, according to the severity of the wound, can take years.

I don't see any signs of your therapist abusing you emotionally. You got hurt by what she was saying but the fact that you got hurt by these statements is that you stumbled upon something valuable to work with. If your therapist would try to sugarcoat things and make sure that nothing she says will ever trigger you in any way then you just wouldn't be doing therapy. These things that trigger you are the material that therapy work can be done on. If she would deliberately avoid touching these things so you wouldn't feel any discomfort then yeah, it would feel nice but it wouldn't contain any potential for healing.

You can read about professionals how to theoretically work with trauma but in reality it boils down to the relationship. I don't believe you can apply any techniques without the relationship and thus focusing on the relationship is the most important and the particular techniques are secondary. However, each relationship is different and thus it has to be invented between very therapist-client couple again. This is your joint work, you can't expect her to do it alone, based on books, skills and techniques.

Sure, you say that you don't feel comfortable and you don't trust. I think that's ok. I've been in very intensive treatment for 4 years and I still many times don't feel comfortable and don't trust. I think that considering my background and trauma this is inevitable, there's nothing to speed up this process. I just have to accept that things are slow and take a lot of time. There is really nothing my therapist can do to suddenly magically make me feel comfortable when I in general don't have this experience of feeling comfortable with people.

It seems to me that you might mix up two things - your feelings and your T's actions. Your T told you something, this made you feel judged, guilty and ashamed and you conclude that your T is judging, guilting and shaming. I'm saying that it isn't necessarily so. It could be (and most probably is) that many things she says that you perceive is judging and shaming but someone else would perceive completely differently. For some reason you perceive her words in this particular colour and the useful question to ask and explore is why do you perceive her word in that specific colour. Where do these feelings of guilt and shame come from? But this is a long process, it can take many sessions - many months or even years before something crystallises enough so that things start making sense to you and something changes. The difficult part is that during this whole time you have to be able to tolerate these feelings at least to some extent and I think this tolerance also increases over time.

So, if you bring it up today and she tells you that you want her to fail then you might tell her it could be true but you see no value right now discussing it but rather want to talk about how her saying all these things makes you feel. When you stick to talking about your feelings, whatever they are, then her reaction to that is what helps to determine whether she can be useful to you or you need someone else. If she is open to exploring to your negative feelings to her then I would say that stick with her. If she would rather want to change the topic then you probably need someone else.

[stopdog]

Why not take a break from this one (who sounds awful to me) and try out some new ones? That gives you some information that you can use to make a more final decision later down the road. I believe in breaks and trying out new ones.

[Calilady]

I never claimed she's abusive to me, but rather, that approach doesn't work for me. It nearly sent me over the cliff and unable to repair. It was a lucky break to encounter a kind stranger who actually "saw" me. But I won't get into that.

And yet, I do get the point you are making. I do.

She refuses to go into my wounding. I do that, myself, every night. I activate my own attachment system and dive into it as best I can to confront. She does not

She refuses. She believes I am not ready and I need to deal with the anxiety and panic first. I disagreed. I felt the panic and anxiety were th crux of the issue. Since we didn't meet eye to eye, I decided to try it myself

For the past three weeks, I have activated my attachment system every night as best I can. I'm no professional, obviously. But for three weeks I haven't had one panic attack

I'm not trying to argue anyone. I don't want to switch t's, but the trust and ability to feel vulnerable feel severed. I don't know what to make of it. I do value all responses and the time, effort, and sharing (of your own sorry) that I really am incredibly grateful.

I am glad to read all of them, but I'm answering from my phone. You guys are wonderful! Everyone!

Maybe of it, even a little, is because we argue like friends. I mean she had told me as much, that we'd be friends if I wasn't her client. It makes it a bit confusing.

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by Calilady

She refuses to go into my wounding. I do that, myself, every night. I activate my own attachment system and dive into it as best I can to confront. She does not

She refuses. She believes I am not ready and I need to deal with the anxiety and panic first. I disagreed. I felt the panic and anxiety were th crux of the issue. Since we didn't meet eye to eye, I decided to try it myself

For the past three weeks, I have activated my attachment system every night as best I can. I'm no professional, obviously. But for three weeks I haven't had one panic attack

I guess I don't really understand what you mean by all this. You have a perfect opportunity to go into your wounds right now because something she said triggered painful feelings in you. That's exactly the thing. A way to proceed from there is exactly to talk about these feelings that emerged in you. You have already gone into your wounds with her! You don't have to do anything alone because you are already doing it together. You just have to keep going, which means that you have to keep telling her about your feelings, whatever they are.

According to my understanding addressing anxiety and attachment stuff are quite different. The regular anxiety work usually is about recognising the situations that trigger anxiety and learning specific skills to cope. The attachment work happens in the relationship and there are no predefined steps because the relationship itself is like an organism that develops and grows on its own. I'm not even sure you can agree to do or not to do this kind of work because whether you can do it depends on what happens in the relationship at any given moment.

[stopdog]

I disagree with the go into wounds sort of idea as being a good thing for everyone. If it has worked for you -then fine - but I don't think it works for everyone nor is it a good idea for everyone. I do believe you can agree not to do it. I don't do it. It does not sound beneficial to me in any way. Again - I am not saying it is not beneficial to those who have found it so - just that I would not and will not do it and have not suffered because of not doing it.

[feileacan]

I totally agree that it is not a suitable type of therapy to everyone. However I cannot imagine doing deep attachment work without it which is something the OP has expressed wanting to do.

Originally Posted by stopdog

Why not take a break from this one (who sounds awful to me) and try out some new ones? That gives you some information that you can use to make a more final decision later down the road. I believe in breaks and trying out new ones.

This maybe a solution for you. I hope you can get what you want and need, no matter what you decide. Good luck to you.

[Calilady]

I go in within the next hour. I might shut down or put it all on the table. Even so, I have to try to respond rather than react. First time, I was too defensive. Second time, too passive. We shall see

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by feileacan

It seems to me that you are expecting progress to be simpler and quicker than it is possible.

Thats what ive thought, reading these posts. As if the answer to one question will make a difference.

Therapy is a symphony, not a 15-second meow-mix jingle. I guess catchy original ad tunes arent as popular as they used to be, thats the only one i could think of, sorry!

Its the relationship over time that helps you see the world differently, that changes your place in it.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Thats what ive thought, reading these posts. As if the answer to one question will make a difference.


Therapy is a symphony, not a 15-second meow-mix jingle. I guess catchy original ad tunes arent as popular as they used to be, thats the only one i could think of, sorry!


Its the relationship over time that helps you see the world differently, that changes your place in it.

I want changing, I want listening
Therapists Therapists
Please deliver


That sort of thing?

OP - I'm a little puzzled by this: you and your therapist both agree you have issues with relationships. Other people apparently find you rude without your intending to be so, too. Maybe you could talk about that and figure out how to fix it?

Also what feilecan said about the difference between theory and practice is a really good point. Maybe talk to her more about her approach?

[ruh roh]

What does it mean to activate your attachment system? (Just trying to understand this.)

[Calilady]

So I went. It was okay. She led the session. It was brought up near the end of session (about how she triggered me the week before). We didn't get too much into it. She was kinda flummoxed about what we should talk about since we had 20 minutes remaining; "We have time left, which is rare, what do you think we should talk about?" It almost felt like me when I avoid, but I was too tired to bring it up on my own. Our last session was so conflicting and upsetting, but didn't really get brought up.

It was the very last thing she brought up and quite frankly, i didn't have the strength of energy to do it.
She said she was anxious going into last session and may have got defensive because she "wanted to keep me" and not lose me. TBH, I wish she didn't tell me this.

I brought up the times when she was the harshest with me, like calling me rude, and then for the next session she was the harshest over the same issue. I told her I didn't think it's a coincidence and she did say it's a possibility that she was triggered as well. She said she has had to go to her therapist and talk about this.

I'm exhausted. This stuff goes against every fiber of my being. She apologized for not listening to me when I told her I was hurt and if I felt judged and she got why it triggered flashbacks in me. She then showed me the stationary she was intent on showing me before.

I feel like I've just gone 12 rounds. Anyone else a fearful avoidant, id be interested in hearing what your sessions are like. Goes against my DNA to sit there.

[Calilady]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

What does it mean to activate your attachment system? (Just trying to understand this.)

I'll have to find the article that kinda explains it, but then I've had to research the works illustrated in the article on my own. I'll paste it when I get home.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Calilady

So I went. It was okay. She led the session. It was brought up near the end of session (about how she triggered me the week before). We didn't get too much into it. She was kinda flummoxed about what we should talk about since we had 20 minutes remaining. It was the very last thing she brought up and quite frankly, i didn't have the strength of energy to do it.
She said she was anxious going into last session and may have got defensive because she "wanted to keep me" and not lose me. TBH, I wish she didn't tell me this.

I brought up the times when she was the harshest with me, like calling me rude, and then for the next session she was the harshest over the same issue. I told her I didn't think it's a coincidence and she did say it's a possibility that she was triggered as well. She said she has had to go to her therapist and talk about this.
.

Omg. Are these her sessions or yours? Is she a trainee? I value openness and honesty, but this is ridic.

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Omg. Are these her sessions or yours? Is she a trainee? I value openness and honesty, but this is ridic.

Agree times a million. Weird stuff coming from a professional.

Calilady, I'm glad she didn't tear you down too badly this time.

[Calilady]

What do you guys mean? Are you referring to anything in particular? I don't know what to expect...

I think she got the gist I was beaten down. It was very apparent.