[LonesomeTonight]

So I have both some positive and negative maternal transference with my T. With the negative, it tends to be that I expect her to react like my mom would to things, so sometimes I'm reluctant to tell her about something (doesn't help that she's my mom's age). She doesn't generally react that way, so for things like that, I feel it's clearly transference/projection.

However, recently I've realized that she *is* reacting to a particular topic the way my mom would have (regarding male authority figures--those who read my posts must know who I'm referring to there in relation to T). And then I'm reacting to T now the way I did to my mom back then. And so on. I want to bring it up with her today but am a little nervous about it, since I'd be calling her on something she's doing. And, as you could maybe guess, I have trouble doing that with my own mother. And last time I called T on something (a couple months ago), she seemed really sad. She's basically admitted to having some countertransference toward me, too.

Tips on bringing this up? I feel that figuring out and addressing what's behind all this, particularly going back to my mom, could be really beneficial for me. But also nervous about it because it's a sensitive issue for me (and would likely require me to discuss someone who hurt me emotionally in the past).

[treevoice]

It sounds like this may be a great opportunity for you to practice what it might be like to confront your mother on the same issues. At the end of the day, your therapist is human and will have human responses, but she is a professional who should know how to handle your criticism and should welcome any feedback that furthers your healing process. Maybe you could bring it up as you did here: start of by saying you are uncomfortable to bring this up (I always find it to be empowering to be honest that I'm coming from a vulnerable place), and just gently let her know that you've been feeling like you're recognizing a similar dynamic and you'd like to talk about the similarities and what they are bringing up for you.

Wishing you luck and healing. <3

[ElectricManatee]

I agree 100% with treevoice. I also think you may need to keep in mind that your T likely has complicated feelings/thoughts about the situation, both as a professional and as MC's colleague (and technically his employee). It seems clear based on things that you've shared here in the past that you're protective of MC when talking to T, and it seems like you might make assumptions about what her opinions of the situation are, particularly given that she is (perhaps wisely) slow to share them with you. Add in the maternal transference and it becomes a bit of a powder keg.

I would proceed slowly and gently and try to lay out little pieces of it at a time, being very honest and deliberate about what you think and feel, and giving your T space to do the same. I do think this is a great topic for therapy, and I hope you get some useful insights out of it.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I agree 100% with treevoice. I also think you may need to keep in mind that your T likely has complicated feelings/thoughts about the situation, both as a professional and as MC's colleague (and technically his employee). It seems clear based on things that you've shared here in the past that you're protective of MC when talking to T, and it seems like you might make assumptions about what her opinions of the situation are, particularly given that she is (perhaps wisely) slow to share them with you. Add in the maternal transference and it becomes a bit of a powder keg.

I would proceed slowly and gently and try to lay out little pieces of it at a time, being very honest and deliberate about what you think and feel, and giving your T space to do the same. I do think this is a great topic for therapy, and I hope you get some useful insights out of it.

Thanks for your thoughts. Yeah, I agree on the powder keg potential. Having had an explosive/difficult session with MC last week, even though that's basically been resolved, I'm not quite ready for another one of those just yet with T.

One issue is that she *has* shared some of her opinions of the situation, which, as you said, have made me defensive in the past. But I suspect at least some of that is from the negative transference for her. Like I'm interpreting her opinions in the worst possible light.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by treevoice

It sounds like this may be a great opportunity for you to practice what it might be like to confront your mother on the same issues. At the end of the day, your therapist is human and will have human responses, but she is a professional who should know how to handle your criticism and should welcome any feedback that furthers your healing process. Maybe you could bring it up as you did here: start of by saying you are uncomfortable to bring this up (I always find it to be empowering to be honest that I'm coming from a vulnerable place), and just gently let her know that you've been feeling like you're recognizing a similar dynamic and you'd like to talk about the similarities and what they are bringing up for you.

Wishing you luck and healing. <3

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! That sounds like a good way to start...

[satsuma]

I think that if it was me, I would not address this by saying about how you think transference/counter transference may be going on, and T is reacting to something the way mum often does. Rather I would try to directly address the thing that is bothering you with T: like I am (unhappy/confused or whatever) about how you said or did this and that, can we talk about it. I would try to dive in and discuss the actual situation in a direct manner, rather than through the lenses of transference/counter-transference.

Then if it is resolved well, it may really help in terms of having a better template, which may help resolve future things with your mum.

And if not, and it's still a problem or T hasn't engaged with what you said, maybe at that point raise the question of transference going on.

I don't know for sure that this way is better than another way, just saying this is what I would do if it were me. I think because that's how my T and I resolve things, we tend to be very direct, but then working through things with T helps me to have a better mental template for working through things with other people.

I so wish you the best with this, LT. As you know already of the current state of my therapeutic relationship, you know I don't have a clue how to best handle it! But I did want to say I support you in however you decide is best.

[LonesomeTonight]

Talked about it a little with her today, though not particularly in depth--will update later!

[Ellahmae]

I'm interested in hearing the update. I'm about to unleash a can of countertransference pie to the face to duchess.... I wouldn't and won't but goodness some times I would like to!

I would add my $0.02 on this, but we've discussed what I think is going on in the triad. I'm looking forward to hearing how your conversation went!

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

So I have both some positive and negative maternal transference with my T. With the negative, it tends to be that I expect her to react like my mom would to things, so sometimes I'm reluctant to tell her about something (doesn't help that she's my mom's age). She doesn't generally react that way, so for things like that, I feel it's clearly transference/projection.

However, recently I've realized that she *is* reacting to a particular topic the way my mom would have (regarding male authority figures--those who read my posts must know who I'm referring to there in relation to T). And then I'm reacting to T now the way I did to my mom back then. And so on. I want to bring it up with her today but am a little nervous about it, since I'd be calling her on something she's doing. And, as you could maybe guess, I have trouble doing that with my own mother. And last time I called T on something (a couple months ago), she seemed really sad. She's basically admitted to having some countertransference toward me, too.

Tips on bringing this up? I feel that figuring out and addressing what's behind all this, particularly going back to my mom, could be really beneficial for me. But also nervous about it because it's a sensitive issue for me (and would likely require me to discuss someone who hurt me emotionally in the past).

I think this is great insight LT. you have caught both you and t in an enactment, a rather unhelpful one. Bringing this up could lead to a rupture and it could also lead to lots of healing and really good work. I suppose it depends on how your t reacts. I think once you say that her reactions have been unhelpful and why you feel that, t should be happy to discuss this but you know her better than any of us. All ts have counter transference towards clients and maybe your t is seeing you like her daughter and she wants to protect you from MC. You are big enough to make your own decisions though.
I think your t is being rather protective of you, I wonder does she know why?
I am interested to hear how it went with your t. I think if her counter transference is impacting you this is definitely worth talking about.
My ts counter transference is scandalous at times but she does name it and talk about her own process and why she reacted like that.

[LonesomeTonight]

Update: Brought it up partway through yesterday's session. The only time I cried that session was while starting to talk about this...I mentioned how sometimes I knew I had some negative maternal transference for T, and she said we'd talked about that a bit before. I said I knew that. But that recently, it felt like we were almost reenacting something with my mom. And it was hard for me.

I said that when she said that she "didn't want to know" about the length of MC's phone call to me, that it bothered me and seemed like something my mom would say. At first she said she didn't say that, how I had just said, "I won't tell you how long it was." I said that yes, I did say that, but then she said, "I don't want to know!" And she was like, "Oh, right."

I said that and how she's sometimes critical of how MC interacts with me (contact outside of session) made me think of how my mom was about some stuff when I was younger, like with male authority figures and some other people too. Like, she'd question why an older male coworker (who was openly gay) from my summer job would want to hang out with someone my age (I was 17, he was 30). (Incidentally, she also questioned why a 25-year-old female coworker would want to hang out with someone my age.) Um, maybe because I'm good company? And she'd say how my feelings of caring toward certain people were inappropriate. Along with my feeling cared for by them.

This is where I got particularly weepy--I said to T that I felt like some of what MC did (phone calls, responding to my e-mails, etc.) made me feel like he genuinely cared about me. So when T would say it was inappropriate...it almost felt like her saying that his caring for me was inappropriate. Like someone shouldn't be caring for me, and if they did, there was something wrong about it. Which made me think of my mom and stuff from when I was a teen/young adult.

T responded that she didn't think that, about the caring. And that she felt my relationship with MC is between me and him and that she found details like phone call length to be irrelevant. (Is it becoming more clear why I have trouble working on the transference for MC with her? Because I tend to have a need to talk about everything...)

At that point, it was near end of session, so I said maybe I needed to think more about stuff she said/did that made me think of my mom. And how that might be good stuff to explore in future sessions. Because obviously, it's still affecting me. She agreed with that and about exploring it more in the future.

Had some more thoughts on the way home, so sent her the following rather long e-mail (to which she responded):
"Hi, T. Thanks for today's session. I wanted to explain a bit more about the one topic. As you know, sometimes I just have this need to share something. I'm not always sure why. So when you say you don't want to know something or that you don't think it's relevant (as you said today), then I feel like I'm not supposed to talk about it. And then I wonder if I should be avoiding the topic in general. Like, for example, if you don't want to know the length of the call--does that mean you don't want to know the content either? (I have mentioned some of the content, but there's certainly more I could have shared.)

I guess one topic would be why I feel the need to share certain things with you or with anyone. But I think come of that comes from all the secret-keeping and avoiding of emotions in my family and how that doesn't work so well for me. There were many things I wanted to discuss as a child and felt like I couldn't--or if I did, I got shut down, like mental illness-related things, authority figure stuff, etc. So you saying you don't want to hear something takes me back to my mom.

Going back to the original topic, maybe I need to figure out *why* the length of a phone call matters to me. Does that somehow connect to something in my past? For example, did my mom put it in my head that the amount of time someone spends with me (in person, on the phone...guess e-mail/text wasn't really a thing then!) showed how much they cared? I know she put lots of emphasis on me calling friends regularly, getting back to them quickly if they called me, etc.

Hm...come to think of it, I often pay attention to how long I'm out with friends. Like, "Oh, J said she had to go after only x amount of time, maybe that meant I was boring her." or "Wow, I hung out with A and D for 3 hours, they must really like spending time with me!"

Maybe because I have insecure attachment, it's like I need some sort of proof that someone cares, that they will be there for me. And time spent talking to me, responses to e-mails, etc. (whether MC, friends, etc.) are concrete examples for me.

Words are probably even more important to me. Like in a recent e-mail (in response to my saying I now understand why he wasn't going to tell us about his wife and how I wasn't sure if it was OK to bring up certain things in session--in this case, the mammogram and my fears surrounding it), MC said the following: "It is always ok for you to bring something up in session. If it is affecting you, then it is important and genuine and therefore ok to bring up. Bringing something up will not lead to me, T or H leaving you." When I'd sent the e-mail, I hadn't consciously realized the abandonment fear was there and I hadn't explicitly mentioned it. But my reaction to reading his e-mail made me realize that it was.

OK, I ended up realizing some of that while typing, so this e-mail ended up longer than I'd intended. I'll stop now. But there's definitely some fodder for future sessions.

Thanks for reading,

LT"
T responded:
"What may be helpful to you is to validate some of the assumptions you tend to make about how others are interpreting words, situations, thoughts and feelings. For example, when you called about the length of the conversation with MC, it was my intention to alleviate your worry,not to say I wasn't interested and that the subject was taboo. MC is correct when he says it is always ok to bring up things that are affecting you. As I think about it, you did that in therapy today and it lead to productive thoughts on both of our parts so thanks. Have a good week, T"

[unaluna]

I wonder if your mom was asperger-y. Some of her advice sounds like Sheldons mom - if someone is anxious, offer them a hot drink. Just follow the RULES when dealing with people, then no one can BLAME you. Well, i want more out of my relationships than just not getting blamed! I want love! I want laughter! Blah blah. But seriously, right?

I mean, you learn the rules, like you learn the rules of ballet, but in order to DANCE! To live! You dont need her being judgey.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by unaluna

I wonder if your mom was asperger-y. Some of her advice sounds like Sheldons mom - if someone is anxious, offer them a hot drink. Just follow the RULES when dealing with people, then no one can BLAME you. Well, i want more out of my relationships than just not getting blamed! I want love! I want laughter! Blah blah. But seriously, right?.

That is exactly what my mother does. Child crying in frustration over piano practice? Hot chocolate! Never mind at that point in my life I loathed chocolate.

LT will you talk to my t for me?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

I wonder if your mom was asperger-y. Some of her advice sounds like Sheldons mom - if someone is anxious, offer them a hot drink. Just follow the RULES when dealing with people, then no one can BLAME you. Well, i want more out of my relationships than just not getting blamed! I want love! I want laughter! Blah blah. But seriously, right?

I mean, you learn the rules, like you learn the rules of ballet, but in order to DANCE! To live! You dont need her being judgey.

Not sure I'd say that--she's pretty extroverted. BUT she clearly also has anxiety issues. My T has said that part of why she probably isn't accepting/understanding of my anxiety is that then she'd have to accept her own. I mean, she always has trouble sleeping, but will deny it's ever anxiety, just "I have trouble sleeping." It's not that she's afraid of planes but "I don't like to fly."

But there are little things that she worries about all the time, little details that I wouldn't even think of. The example I tend to give is from our wedding planning. We were having ceremony and reception in same place. So they had to move the tables out of the way for the ceremony, then move them in for the reception. They were going to have the floral centerpieces already on them. My mom told me they couldn't have arrangements with water because the water would spill when they moved the tables. When...I wouldn't have even thought of that because i assumed they were professionals who would have moved the arrangements off the table first (or moved them without spilling water). She also worried about the size of the dinner plates at the buffet. Things like that.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by artemis-within

LT will you talk to my t for me?

We need like a T trade on here--I'll talk to your T, someone else can talk to my T or MC, etc.!

Save

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

We need like a T trade on here--I'll talk to your T, someone else can talk to my T or MC, etc.!

Save

I'd sign up for that!!

Something you might consider doing is going through your past postings to forums and see if you can pick up the pattern there and try to make sense of it, in this case, time. My ex therapist was great at teaching me to hook or unhook things from my past and/or present so that I could have a clearer path to follow or choose not to follow. It decreased a lot of anxiety and bouts of depression that I used to have and got in the way of living a better than okay life.

When I get a chance to read forums I often see patterns of original posters and even the posters that respond to them with responses that vary depending on where the poster is in his or her own life. I often feel sad for those that have a chorus ringing in their ear that their therapist failed and it's time to get out. It would be hard for ME to come back and post in a thread like "Tell is about your good T." At times, those are legitimate voices and at other times I believe that it is projection and transference because of not great circumstances in their own lives. But, I do believe most all the responses are well meaning. Just my two cents worth, IMHO.

[StickyTwig]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

So when you say you don't want to know something or that you don't think it's relevant (as you said today), then I feel like I'm not supposed to talk about it. And then I wonder if I should be avoiding the topic in general. Like, for example, if you don't want to know the length of the call--does that mean you don't want to know the content either? (I have mentioned some of the content, but there's certainly more I could have shared.)

This feeling in therapy is all too familiar to me, and like you in my case I think its some kind of transference from the past.

To add an extra dimension to what you have said (which I don't disagree with in any way) - I would say that also its a case of your T failing to notice the importance to you of the issue of the phone calls and their length. In other words, an empathic failure - (not that there is anything wrong with that, they happen all the time in therapy). Anyway, it hurts.

Personally, I try to avoid talking about things that are important to me but I don't know why until I have done some sort of analysis of them, and then I bring up the analysis instead, if that makes sense. Otherwise I just end up getting upset. But whether thats the most healthy way of dealing with these things I have no idea!

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by StickyTwig

This feeling in therapy is all too familiar to me, and like you in my case I think its some kind of transference from the past.

To add an extra dimension to what you have said (which I don't disagree with in any way) - I would say that also its a case of your T failing to notice the importance to you of the issue of the phone calls and their length. In other words, an empathic failure - (not that there is anything wrong with that, they happen all the time in therapy). Anyway, it hurts.

Personally, I try to avoid talking about things that are important to me but I don't know why until I have done some sort of analysis of them, and then I bring up the analysis instead, if that makes sense. Otherwise I just end up getting upset. But whether thats the most healthy way of dealing with these things I have no idea!

Thanks for your comments. Good point about the "empathic failure"--maybe that upset me just as much as what it was about. Like, "Can't you tell I need to talk about this? Doesn't you know at this point, after 6 years, when I say something like, 'I'm not going to tell you about x,' I actually mean that I *do* want to talk about it, but maybe am nervous, so I want you to draw me out?"

Yeah, I know, I probably should have learned enough in therapy to *not* do things like that...to just be more direct. I just find it more difficult with T to state my needs, which I'm pretty sure has to do with maternal transference stuff. It's easier to tell MC what I want/need from him--that is, when he doesn't sense what that is on his own.

I guess some of it also comes down to feeling like T just doesn't fully "get" me--not quite to the extent that my mom doesn't, but there are times T just seems mystified or confused by things I do, say, or feel. I mean, I know I can be a bit odd sometimes, and I don't perfectly fit the clinical mold of someone with OCD, anxiety, and depression, but by now, I'd think she'd have a pretty thorough understanding of me and what makes me tick (which...I also think about my mom).

[Yellowbuggy]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Doesn't she know at this point, after 6 years, when I say something like, 'I'm not going to tell you about x,' I actually mean that I *do* want to talk about it, but maybe am nervous, so I want you to draw me out?"

Yeah, I know, I probably should have learned enough in therapy to *not* do things like that...to just be more direct.

I think this may be behind her response (or lack thereof). Perhaps a combination of this and something another poster said about not wanting to get involved in the triad of you, her, and MC. I suspect she doesn't agree with MC's approach and she's not able to say it directly, so she's in a bind. I know she has alluded to it in the past but it may be difficult for her professionally to be more direct, so she may be showing that reluctance in her response.

IMHO, I do not believe MC is helping you by being so accepting of everything that occurs in therapy. I think it may be fueling your attraction to him (and those of us who are also attracted to our therapists, including myself!). It's just not natural, and it may be one of the reasons we fall in love with our therapists. If therapists are to provide a corrective emotional experience by modelling an appropriate, boundaried relationship, I think it should be more realistic in this way as well. We are not accepted unconditionally outside of the therapy room, so why should it occur inside? For example, if my husband agreed with everything I thought, felt, said and did, we would both be in trouble. That's not to say therapists should not have unconditional positive regard for us, but the level of intense attention paid to us in the therapy room - and only us - can be dangerous as well.

I admire your effort in trying trying to make sense of what is happening in therapy. I like reading your updates. You remind me a lot of myself!

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Yellowbuggy

I think this may be behind her response (or lack thereof). Perhaps a combination of this and something another poster said about not wanting to get involved in the triad of you, her, and MC. I suspect she doesn't agree with MC's approach and she's not able to say it directly, so she's in a bind. I know she has alluded to it in the past but it may be difficult for her professionally to be more direct, so she may be showing that reluctance in her response.

Thanks, YB. She has basically come out and said that she wouldn't do what he does when she does marriage/couples therapy. Particularly not allowing outside contact with one member of the couple. And she handles marriage counseling differently in general, from what she said--more structured (like she'll have clients make lists, do exercises, etc.). His is more relaxed and unstructured, which definitely has its downsides. She knows a bit firsthand about how he operates in couples counseling because they counseled a couple together for a period at one point (I think one was already her client and the other was his, or something).

I think T has her own sense of what I need and what is "good for me", which is not the same as what MC thinks, at least based on how they each interact with me in general. So I think sometimes when I say how much something he said/did helped me, then it's hard for her to not be like, "No, he shouldn't have done that!" I think what I *really* need is something in between their two approaches.

IMHO, I do not believe MC is helping you by being so accepting of everything that occurs in therapy. I think it may be fueling your attraction to him (and those of us who are also attracted to our therapists, including myself!). It's just not natural, and it may be one of the reasons we fall in love with our therapists. If therapists are to provide a corrective emotional experience by modelling an appropriate, boundaried relationship, I think it should be more realistic in this way as well. We are not accepted unconditionally outside of the therapy room, so why should it occur inside? For example, if my husband agreed with everything I thought, felt, said and did, we would both be in trouble. That's not to say therapists should not have unconditional positive regard for us, but the level of intense attention paid to us in the therapy room - and only us - can be dangerous as well.

Just to clarify, it's paternal transference that I have for MC rather than erotic/romantic (that was there initially, but I figured out it was really a paternal thing), though there's an intense attachment.

I think MC is trying to provide a corrective emotional experience for me, kinda sorta within the bounds of marriage counseling. He's said before that working through transference can be about going through experiences from your past (in my case, with male authority figures), but with a different ending. And he feels that can be healing. We both think I've made progress (even though sometimes it's a few steps forward then a step or two back). For example, I've been able to tell him that I'm upset with something he said or did. And some of that has carried over into "real life," with interacting with H and a little bit with my parents (and with T). It used to be if I was upset with someone, I'd just blame myself and wouldn't feel comfortable expressing my hurt or anger. But that has changed--I can't say how much of that is in relation to stuff from MC vs. T vs. other stuff.

I do get what you're saying, and I think that's more in line with how T feels and how she practices therapy. It's probably why I'm less attached to her--well, the negative maternal stuff, too, but there's also some positive maternal transference at times. At the same time, I think my mom thought that was what I needed, too--or at least that's what she gave me. And that apparently didn't work so well for me. T isn't as judgmental of me/other people as my mom, but I still sense judgment from her (T) in some of the things I say/do (not just talking about MC stuff here), or even just in how my mind works. Like something T said the other day: "You just spend so much time thinking about things," said in a negative way. Like, yeah, that's just how I am. (Sorry, I'm rambling now!)

I feel like MC is telling me stuff that I need to hear. Like particularly, the younger parts of me. I think that's why I have such a strong emotional response to things he's said to me--because it's stuff I'd been missing. Messages I should have gotten many years ago. I feel he's helped me to feel more secure, stronger, to trust myself more.

I admire your effort in trying trying to make sense of what is happening in therapy. I like reading your updates. You remind me a lot of myself!

Thanks! It's good to know people like reading my updates (and aren't like, "Oh, no, not LT again!"

[LonesomeTonight]

I guess I sort of feel like T--and my mother--look at me and think of how I *could* and/or *should* be. Whereas I feel like MC looks at me and sees me as I *am.* Yeah, maybe that's it... I mean, not nearly as simple as that, but...

[Yellowbuggy]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Good point about the "empathic failure"--maybe that upset me just as much as what it was about. Like, "Can't you tell I need to talk about this?

LT, I have a question for you. But before I ask, I want you to apologize in advance if it appears as though I'm prodding you. I think very highly of you and enjoy reading your updates. Sometimes basic questions like mine may appear to be accusatory in writing, but that is not my intention. They are just simple questions whose answers will hopefully be able to advance your understanding of what's going on.

When you question why your T can't tell that you need to talk about the length of the phone call with MC (bolded above), a) what did you hope her reaction would be?, and b) what does it mean to you that he spent as long as he did on the phone with you?

You obviously wanted to talk about the length of the phone call because it was important to you. My question is... why? I think I understand why, but I'm curious if you can answer that question for yourself.

Please don't get upset at me for saying this, but I suspect your transference for MC is romantic and you are afraid to admit it to yourself and others for a number of reasons., including the fact that you're seeing MC for marriage counseling (I believe you experienced some opprobrium from members of this forum a while back for that reason). And by denying you experience romantic feelings for MC you are protected from uncomfortable feelings it may invoke.

You don't need to answer this question for me. I am nobody and I don't need to know. But you are a thinker, and I think it would be helpful for you to think about this to advance your understanding of what's going on.

Thank you for sharing your story with us. Forgive me if I am way off base. I'm just trying to help, I assure you. Sometimes being uncomfortable is an important part of growth.