[Favorite Jeans]

Toward the end of my last session my T remarked, not for the first time, that I don't seem to really let loose with my anger in therapy. I don't rant and rave like she thinks I should. I mean, she left implicit what she thinks I “should” do because it's not her way to drop a lot of shoulds. But I got the impression that at very least she kinda wishes I'd more just go in and spill rather than try to give a fair and true account of whatever I'm talking about. She asked whether I think I hold back and if so, why?

We had exactly a minute left. What popped into my mind that I didn't say—because as mentioned, I'm not very blurty—was “because you won't even make me tea!”

I'm not exactly sure WTF that even means. But I told her I could probably answer her question sometime when we had more than a minute left. She seemed genuinely curious, intrigued even. I should leave session with a cliffhanger more often.

I've mentioned the tea thing precisely three times in 7 years. Twice in session and once in an email. Basically she often makes herself tea and never makes me any and became A Thing for me. It is absolutely agonizing for me to bring up. Honestly, I've gotten to a place where talking about rape or cutting is pleasant chitchat by comparison.

The fantasy of her handing me a cup of tea is a concrete symbol of something big for me and I’m not totally sure what. Her care? Acceptance? Her not rejecting my attachment? Her not holding me at arm’s length? Tea seems like a safe and appropriate enough surrogate for all the other types of mothering and care I really could have used (or could currently use) that she absolutely cannot appropriately give me. Which is to say tea is not a lot to ask of her but simultaneously, it's everything.

I generally already do feel quite accepted and cared about. I don't know if I feel cared for though. There is a kind of arm’s length thing going on where she totally promises that she's comfortable and not grossed out by the attachment thing but, and this could be my imagination, it feels like she avoids it. I mean I certainly avoid the **** out of it, so that's not even a question, but it feels like she helps me avoid it?

Like I bring it up and say, um, help, there’s this yawning chasm of need at my very core and it's basically the central struggle of my existence? And she's like, uh huh, and issues a gentle normalizing statement + variation of “you're not a gross person.” But I’m starting to despair that she’ll ever help me talk about this, she says she’ll get back to me about this stuff and doesn't, and she doesn't adequately recognize the monumental risk I’ve taken in bringing it up in the first place. I feel nauseated, weak and sweaty just talking about it.

Anyway, to return to the original question: unrestrained venting. Not necessarily the hugest emotional risk, the actual topic of the would-be rant is often pretty low-stakes, familiar territory. But that total warmth and familiarity? The gut level sense of safety that allows for talk now, think later? I'm often not there. And she hasn't made me tea. She hasn't met me at that level yet.

[ruh roh]

Originally Posted by Favorite Jeans

Anyway, to return to the original question: unrestrained venting. Not necessarily the hugest emotional risk, the actual topic of the would-be rant is often pretty low-stakes, familiar territory. But that total warmth and familiarity? The gut level sense of safety that allows for talk now, think later? I'm often not there. And she hasn't made me tea. She hasn't met me at that level yet.

That's so well put, and points to how individual this is for each of us. You are needing something in the relationship to create that sense of safety, whereas I have no problem speaking freely because there is no sense of relationship in the room. I don't think I'm better off for it, though, other than I know I said what was on my mind. But there really is no benefit to it. In your case, it seems there would be a benefit because what comes with speaking your mind is the result of feeling safety in the relationship.

[mostlylurking]

Could it possibly be not only the caring aspect, but something to do with equality? In some contexts it would be rude to make oneself tea and not offer to do the same for someone else who's there, although the therapy relationship is an odd one. Perhaps if you don't feel quite like equals, you feel you have to edit what you're saying carefully, as if talking to someone in a supervisory position or something like that? I don't mean that you'd think this rationally of course -- just wondering about other meanings / symbolism of her having tea and you going without.

[unaluna]

Why no tea? Not even cold water? That seems... yeah, like your needs are too much for her. It sends a message. That can be talked about, of course. but whose is it?!

[Favorite Jeans]

Originally Posted by mostlylurking

Could it possibly be not only the caring aspect, but something to do with equality? In some contexts it would be rude to make oneself tea and not offer to do the same for someone else who's there, although the therapy relationship is an odd one. Perhaps if you don't feel quite like equals, you feel you have to edit what you're saying carefully, as if talking to someone in a supervisory position or something like that? I don't mean that you'd think this rationally of course -- just wondering about other meanings / symbolism of her having tea and you going without.

Huh. That's a really good point. We're not pals. We have a pretty friendly relationship and I do simply like her in her moments of unguarded humanness. But there's a power relationship for sure and I'm always conscious of it.

The other thing that has occurred to me along those lines is that I have kind of let her occupy a maternal place in my heart and sometimes relate to her from a childlike place. My paradigm for that relationship is one in which the child gets judged and is found wanting. So of course I'm gonna be careful with what I say and how I say it.

[Favorite Jeans]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Why no tea? Not even cold water? That seems... yeah, like your needs are too much for her. It sends a message. That can be talked about, of course. but whose is it?!

Actually there's cold water. Filtered through some fancy-schmancy ceramic something or other that removes the toxins but leaves all the good vibes so that it passes through your system sowing balance and molecular harmony in its wake. Some would say that's even better than tea. But I'm kind of high maintenance, ya know? I'm not even satisfied with molecular harmony. I want tea.

[ElectricManatee]

What did she say the three times you brought up the tea thing?

I trust my therapist. She wants me to speak my mind. She hates bull sh&t.

[Thalassophile]

The tea thing would bother me....although like you not entirely sure why...I think for me it would be because it reinforces the boundaries of the relationship and the fact that we are not 'friends' in any way as to me having tea or coffee with my t would almost be a step closer to friendship almost more personal or something especially when one on one...I dunno. Perhaps thats because I usually have tea with people I am either friends with, family or people I am hoping/planning to be friends with.

I try to speak as freely as I can and feel I do a relatively okay job but my T thinks I hold back things and I guess he is right. I think that is perhaps down to the power imbalance amongst a few others things.

[annielovesbacon]

I'm afraid to speak my mind in therapy too. I wish I knew why. Am I afraid of judgment? Am I uncomfortable with our relationship? Do I not trust her?

I've tried to bring it up before, but then I can't even open up about not being able to open up. Ugh.

[unaluna]

I told my t today that i am starting to feel love. At first i thought i meant for him, but then i thought i meant for me, but then i thought, its really just kinda overall.

This tea thing just feels withholding. Okay, some ts are like that. Maybe thats what some people can use. But i needed more from my t.

Not his coffee. I had some once, like a quarter mug, and i was awake for two nights! But i knew i was always welcome to it, and he will sometimes take a sip of my soy cap.

Yeah, magic water my butt. No offense. If a man said that, i would question his connection with reality, but then i tend to be a sexist pig sometimes. And i just plain dont want to hear it from a woman. I guess in either case, i would be out the door, cuz how do i know there is not fungus in those rocks or whatever?

Are you trying to get blood from a stone? In t, and or IRL? DBT might help you SEE that, but not really FIX any attachment issues. Find a warm puppy t

[cinnamon_roll]

My art T offers me tea. Former art T has as well. I've always liked it, it makes me feel cared for. And yes, there's something about equality in it as well, and sharing.

Art T has offered tea right from the beginning. In fact the first few sessions I was very happy that I could stare into this cup of tea. It helps to (re-)establish the connection. Warming up in winter, literally. I would comment if the tea tastes differently, for whatever reason. In fact, a couple of times I outright asked her for 'my' cup of tea when she forgot, for whatever reason. And just the fact, that I was able to ask her for tea, showed me that I've made huge progress.

Will you tell your T that it's about the tea (tea being symbol for something else in terms of trust, eye-level etc...)? Might unfold an interesting conversation.

Also I found, that quite often, my fears of T judging me, and me thus holding back, are fears from the past. So T making clear, over and over again, that she will not judge me, that it is not her intention to judge me, does help to break the hold of the past. And yes, a cup of tea helps as well in this process. Sharing something. Establishing trust. It carries so much more meaning than just some hot liquid brew...

The office of my therapist feels like a safe place to be, but my mind still controls very closely what I say. Nearly every week I bring in notes or results of what I need to discuss in the order that I plan to discuss them. Those notes form the basis of my lines, and I don't go off-script.

In social situations my mind shuts down as the anxiety gets me flustered, so it's nice to have those notes on hand. It's pretty awkward sitting across from someone trying to speak when your brain won't work.

But truth be told, I think I have grown to see the paper I bring in as a barrier I can hide behind. Throughout the session I hold it in front of me like a shield, I fuss with it for momentary distractions, and I know when I go in that I just have to regurgitate what I've written on it. The notes become the focal point of the sessions allowing me to take the backseat, only sharing what was jotted down. I'm showing up for the sessions but I'm not really there.

Perhaps I should be going more frequently so that I don't have the time between sessions to create so many notes. That way I wouldn't feel like I need to pack everything into our time constraints. It may provoke more off the cuff discussion.

[Favorite Jeans]

Originally Posted by unaluna

I told my t today that i am starting to feel love. At first i thought i meant for him, but then i thought i meant for me, but then i thought, its really just kinda overall.

This tea thing just feels withholding. Okay, some ts are like that. Maybe thats what some people can use. But i needed more from my t.

Not his coffee. I had some once, like a quarter mug, and i was awake for two nights! But i knew i was always welcome to it, and he will sometimes take a sip of my soy cap.

Yeah, magic water my butt. No offense. If a man said that, i would question his connection with reality, but then i tend to be a sexist pig sometimes. And i just plain dont want to hear it from a woman. I guess in either case, i would be out the door, cuz how do i know there is not fungus in those rocks or whatever?

Are you trying to get blood from a stone? In t, and or IRL? DBT might help you SEE that, but not really FIX any attachment issues. Find a warm puppy t

Hahaha. The magic water thing is my juvenile jackassery. We are lucky enough to live in a place where the water is safe and delish and full of good vibes right from the tap. She has never made any claims about her water filter. If she has woo-woo beliefs beliefs about it she's kept them entirely to herself.

But, yeah. The no tea. It does feel withholding, doesn't it? You'd feel that way too? And like your T's coffee, it's mainly about knowing I'm welcome to it. Whether I actually imbibe it is of lesser importance.

[LostOnTheTrail]

R doesn't judge me, and yet I still find it hard to say what's on my mind. I think I'm worried about falling apart.

[Favorite Jeans]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

What did she say the three times you brought up the tea thing?

Well her reply to the email was "I can do tea "

But then she didn't.

The first time we talked about it was right after the email which I'd sent the night before because I knew that otherwise I wouldn't bring it up. I don't remember that session well, it was one of those times that I was so close to panic that I later could only remember the panic and not the content. But I can say for sure that a cup of tea was not part of that session.

The other time was nearly a year ago when I laid out my plan to deal with the attachment stuff. Tea got a mention within a larger hand-drawn cartoon/poster of what I thought was going on and what I need from her.

I sometimes wonder if she has a poor memory for some kinds of detail. Or a philosophy of T/tea that she has yet to elucidate. Or her own issue that is getting in the way.

[LittleAfrica]

Mine still won't offer me tea either! I couldn't vote as I'm both I don't give a rat's arse what they think and it's their job/what they paid for. I've decided to do tit for tat and blow very hot and cold like she does. Or maybe I'm just a salty asshole. Or maybe I'm over the drug that I feel transference is (my opinion please peeps don't crap on me for it). Or maybe because I pay out of pocket I'm starting to have very little tolerance for BS and my BS detector is in overdrive. Whatever it is it's definitely not because of the close, trusting relationship that was just a f****** illusion. My filter is gone. Therapist will hear my very free thoughts. She can take her feels to her own therapist or whatever she does for self care.

[Favorite Jeans]

Originally Posted by LostOnTheTrail

R doesn't judge me, and yet I still find it hard to say what's on my mind. I think I'm worried about falling apart.

Depending on what's on your mind, I'd say falling apart is a distinct possibility. It's not always ultimately the worst thing, it could allow for you to come back together in a way that works better and is happier and freer. But it's really effing daunting.

Could also be that no such thing will happen and you were just taught that it was dangerous to say stuff. Maybe it would be worth talking about the fear of falling apart? What does that mean? What would that look like? How could your T support you if that happened and what would it take to rebuild?

I have just come out the other end of falling apart. Not so much me falling apart in the sense of a mental health breakdown but my life falling apart in the sense of divorce, leaving a bad relationship and having to reexamine much of what I thought I knew. It's gnarly. But I breathe more easily. The falling apart was a net gain.

While I've never found tea to have any particular calming or soothing effect it has frequently been suggested to me for precisely those purposes. Perhaps that is what your therapist uses it for? Kind of a self-soothing method... something they do for themselves during sessions to help themselves be able to tackle the difficult emotional work. If so, maybe that's why they don't think to share it with others, or are maybe even resistant to sharing it since it would no longer be a ritual that helps keep them separate/rooted in themselves?

Have you ever tried bringing your own tea in a travel mug to a session?

[feralkittymom]

The T Tao of Tea. If it could sustain the Empire, therapy should be a piece of cake (preferably with tea.)

My T generally has her coffee--I think she either gets it from the nearby shop or from the business office across the hall--and I bring my own travel cup of tea. But she occasionally brings in a piece of chocolate for herself and offers me one, too. I've never attached any special meaning to it, and I doubt she has, just because she's very down to earth in her personality.

It sounds like your T thinks you keep a bit of distance from your emotions. And your gut level feeling is that she isn't/ won't/can't? hold the depth of your emotions? And some resentment/hurt about that? I guess the challenge is to figure out if it's coming from you or her?

Mine told me she thinks I'm very stoic--that I'm always put together and greet her cheerfully, that I don't whine or complain. I suppose that means most of her clients do? IDK. That's just not my personality. I'm pretty open emotionally if what I'm talking about has strong feelings, but I don't feel conflicted in general. What I talk about and how doesn't really have much to do with her. I think I puzzle her a bit.

[Favorite Jeans]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

The T Tao of Tea. If it could sustain the Empire, therapy should be a piece of cake (preferably with tea.)

My T generally has her coffee--I think she either gets it from the nearby shop or from the business office across the hall--and I bring my own travel cup of tea. But she occasionally brings in a piece of chocolate for herself and offers me one, too. I've never attached any special meaning to it, and I doubt she has, just because she's very down to earth in her personality.

It sounds like your T thinks you keep a bit of distance from your emotions. And your gut level feeling is that she isn't/ won't/can't? hold the depth of your emotions? And some resentment/hurt about that? I guess the challenge is to figure out if it's coming from you or her?

Mine told me she thinks I'm very stoic--that I'm always put together and greet her cheerfully, that I don't whine or complain. I suppose that means most of her clients do? IDK. That's just not my personality. I'm pretty open emotionally if what I'm talking about has strong feelings, but I don't feel conflicted in general. What I talk about and how doesn't really have much to do with her. I think I puzzle her a bit.

Not to perseverate, but would you attach meaning to it if she brought and ate chocolate in session and never offered you a piece?

I don't know if I'm stoic, but I don't really think unrestrained *****ing is something I want to strive for in my therapeutic relationship. Sometimes I've been surprised when she's asked why I don't just rant. I've said a few times "uh, I kind of thought i just did?" whereupon she's given her impression of what [her idea of] actual ranting would sound like. It actually cracks me up.

The thing is I have people with whom I engage in that kind of thing when I need to. I don't need to use my scarce therapy time/dollars to swear about the things that bug me. Plus I have to be in the mood in that moment, and it's a mood that usually dissipates pretty quickly, so I can't just summon it up when I walk through her door.

It's not a lack of ranting per se that's the issue. It's another kind of emotional freedom or something that I think requires a trust or some depth of connection that isn't yet fully developed.

[Lemoncake]

I don't think you're being unreasonable. The drink thing would get to me as well. The second therapist I saw did that too. It wasn't about even wanting tea but I would have liked to be asked.

[unaluna]

Was it something that you didnt know or notice was missing until the divorce happened? The divorce pulled the rug out, and oh look theres no floor!

[Anne2.0]

For me, accepting what people offer has been absurdly difficult. Not so much anymore.

Wanting people to offer me something that I didn't have to ask for, a pretty deep longing. Wanting something enough to ask for it even if it wasn't offered, kind of a big thing.

Not wanting to do something someone else wanted me to do, really hard to refuse. Still is. But having clarity on what I do want helps me get there. Say no. Sometimes I think someone wants me to do something, and it turns out they were just chatting rather aimlessly, and have no stake in it one way or the other. When you have a history of coercion, forced to do things you didn't want to do and no child should have to contemplate, the safety of compliance still lives in there no matter how fiercely independent you are now.

It seems to me that you are clear: say you do not want to vent as part of your therapy. It's possible she was more interested in the conversation about why or why not rather than advocating you should do it. What we say and what people hear, or what is said to us and what we hear, those can be very different.

If you want tea, as opposed to T offering tea, then ask. It occurs to me that you could also ask that she offer you tea next time she is making it. But someone who is willing to make you tea in a moment of abstractness is not necessarily going to translate that to asking you at this particular time if you want some. So you still may have to ask at the next opportunity. If you want the tea. If it is T's behavior you want to change, that might be a longer road.

One of the things I've been working on in recent years is not trying to get people to change their behavior or have a stake in what they do. This is particularly challenging when raising a teenager. I've long thought that everyone would be better off if they thought about things the way I did or did what I thought they should do.

But that's a thumb on the scales of balanced relationships, my desire to control how others relate to me. When I've been able to let go of that control, to change the way they respond to me, the relationship opens up in closeness and connection. It makes me braver in asking for what I want and more accepting of the times when others can't do that. It helps me to try to construct it as my responsibility to ask for what I want from others, whether I've done what I can to ask for it, whether it's okay to not get it.

Turns out the vast majority of people in my life want me to ask for what I want, because they want to give it to me if they possibly can. Without me telling them, they don't necessarily know that I want anything at all (fierce independence and general competency aren't exactly cries for help) and the reasons why they don't offer have little to do with me.

So to me, your discussion of tea and venting is part of a larger landscape of relationship where want and don't want are old trees with deep roots and full branches. Seems like there's a lot there.

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

For me, accepting what people offer has been absurdly difficult. Not so much anymore.

Wanting people to offer me something that I didn't have to ask for, a pretty deep longing. Wanting something enough to ask for it even if it wasn't offered, kind of a big thing.

Not wanting to do something someone else wanted me to do, really hard to refuse. Still is. But having clarity on what I do want helps me get there. Say no. Sometimes I think someone wants me to do something, and it turns out they were just chatting rather aimlessly, and have no stake in it one way or the other. When you have a history of coercion, forced to do things you didn't want to do and no child should have to contemplate, the safety of compliance still lives in there no matter how fiercely independent you are now.

It seems to me that you are clear: say you do not want to vent as part of your therapy. It's possible she was more interested in the conversation about why or why not rather than advocating you should do it. What we say and what people hear, or what is said to us and what we hear, those can be very different.

If you want tea, as opposed to T offering tea, then ask. It occurs to me that you could also ask that she offer you tea next time she is making it. But someone who is willing to make you tea in a moment of abstractness is not necessarily going to translate that to asking you at this particular time if you want some. So you still may have to ask at the next opportunity. If you want the tea. If it is T's behavior you want to change, that might be a longer road.

One of the things I've been working on in recent years is not trying to get people to change their behavior or have a stake in what they do. This is particularly challenging when raising a teenager. I've long thought that everyone would be better off if they thought about things the way I did or did what I thought they should do.

But that's a thumb on the scales of balanced relationships, my desire to control how others relate to me. When I've been able to let go of that control, to change the way they respond to me, the relationship opens up in closeness and connection. It makes me braver in asking for what I want and more accepting of the times when others can't do that. It helps me to try to construct it as my responsibility to ask for what I want from others, whether I've done what I can to ask for it, whether it's okay to not get it.

Turns out the vast majority of people in my life want me to ask for what I want, because they want to give it to me if they possibly can. Without me telling them, they don't necessarily know that I want anything at all (fierce independence and general competency aren't exactly cries for help) and the reasons why they don't offer have little to do with me.

So to me, your discussion of tea and venting is part of a larger landscape of relationship where want and don't want are old trees with deep roots and full branches. Seems like there's a lot there.

Thank you for this. Beautifully said.