Couch 241: Twin primes!

Thanks, Artie!

Oh, you got married on Christmas? And that sounds like a lovely celebration!

We did... we actually had 2 different ceremonies, the first was on Christmas day and very small in the living room of our apartment at the time with just my parents, brother and one sister. Then we went ahead and had a second larger one on the following Valentine's Day that extended family and friends attended.

I'm looking forward to it! This motel has only 7 rooms, a pretty little private courtyard, etc. We've seen it before when we've been there and thought one day we should stay there so now we're going to.

Checking in from the Eternal City.

Been a good visit until last night—I was on my way back to the Airbnb when I slipped and fell (it had been raining for days) on the wet cobblestones. Landed hard on my right forearm and within a couple hours my elbow was barking at me. Couldn’t move it very much without severe pain, had one uncomfortable possible sleeping position, spent much of night alternating dozing and icing the elbow.

Got some extra strength ibuprofen at a pharmacy this morning and it’s helped with pain and increased mobility. Still hurts to do normal things like comb hair or grip anything or put my arm in a sleeve. Stayed home all day to keep resting my arm, hope to be back in the saddle tomorrow.

Alternating days between attractions like the Vatican Museums and walks from a “Walking in Rome” book I got. Haven’t tried eating out even at places that advertise gluten free, or gelateria—the local supermarket has a “senza glutine” section and that works for me since I have an induction cooker in the Airbnb.

This new holiday tradition agrees with me, thinking of where to next year. Antarctica sounds cool…

Hope your arm feels better soon Atat. Remember that Italian ERs don't have issues like the US with insurance, rather go there early than late!

ATAT - sorry about arm but glad to hear it is going well other than that.

Sorry about your arm, @@ I hope it's better soon and that you can continue enjoying your trip!

Along with H & I celebrating our anniversary this weekend, I am also having a personal celebration today - it has now been one full year since my last session with L, and I'm feeling pretty darn good about that overall. It took almost the whole year to get to this place, but... I'm choosing right now as I type this, to focus more on the end result and moving forward from here, than on the process and the time it took to get here. I also want to thank y'all again for helping me through it when I was struggling so much.

Hugs and head nods all around as wanted/needed/appropriate.

Does he need to teach you how you can affect others? I just wonder because it strikes me that you know very well and that you are very used to making yourself smaller and quieter so you don't affect others. I am someone who also has big reactions and big emotions and I spent years thinking I was the problem and I needed to just learn the "right" way to be. It did not stop anything.

Turns out I had undiagnosed ADHD and a heck of a lot of CPTSD. the only thing that stopped or quieted that part of me was deep EMDR on my childhood parts. I can honestly say my wife and I haven't had a blow out fight since 2020. It has been everything to learn more about how my brain works and what drives things. Everything is quieter and I don't have to work at masking myself. I have so much more control over my ability even though I still have strong emotions. My T has never once invalidated those emotions although she has gently questioned the truth behind them. If I felt I had to control myself in therapy and not really explore WHY then I dont think I would get far.

Shame is not really a great teacher, masking how you feel for the comfort of others doesn't seem like it's really working at the root. You T seems to have missed a really great chance to explore things with you because of his own feelings. It's ok if that's what you want but really truly is it getting to the core of anything??

If you still have the big reaction and big emotion but just turn all of it inwards while trying not to upset anyone is that something that will benefit you ? For me I love not hurting others with my big reactions but I love it more because I feel like I am coping, I have 80% less reactions and when it happens I'm not masking I'm using resources to be able to soothe myself.

Just because someone has a feeling doesn't mean they get to inflict it on others is how I see it. It is fine for you to have it, but it isn't something others should have to have imposed on them. To me it is like people who claim to be "huggers" and think that means they get to hug everyone because it is their preference and if someone else declines it is suppressing the hugger. I would think whether a therapist is useful in pointing that out might somewhat depend upon whether someone feels bad or rejected just because someone else does not want wanton emotions or hugs inflicted on them. (I am not saying this is the thing going on with lt and that therapist - just offering it as a different view)

on another topic:

I always have some song going through my head - I thought everyone did -but after asking -it seems I was wrong and not everyone does. Today's song is I Ain't Hep to that Step But I'll Dig It.

So sorry to hear about your arm, @@. I hope you're soon on the mend.

I've just spent the past couple of hours watching Love Actually. Not really being a festive person, I'd never seen it. However, I enjoyed it, and am now wondering what other festive films I'm missing out on.

I mean even though I believe that it's our therapy and we get to talk about whatever we need/want to talk about in the one place we shouldn't have to censor ourselves - I also like how Dr T handled it overall in talking about how the feelings were fine but he was using it as a teaching moment or whatever, and LT I'm so glad it led you to some understanding (although painful, that part sucks) and that it may be leading to a breakthrough for you. I'm really proud of you for sticking with/working through this stuff.

Well this is why they say therapy is like an onion - but you should be going deeper with each iteration. I cant tell if Mr T is heading LT off at the pass, cutting her procesing short. Again, you cant present REASONS, you have to present FEEEEEELINGS. Like reasons Mr T should stand up at the end of a session? Or how you FEEL when he doesnt stand. Not when he SAYS he wont stand, but what NOT standing MEANS to you. Because you are not paying him to stand; you are paying him to explore why his not standing bothers you so much. And ditto for other stuff.

Eta - i had a relatively painless day yesterday so i thought it was over, but its snot.

I guess to me, realizing how what you share/say affects others (and even that it does), is going deeper. I say this, coming from a background where sharing feelings was highly discouraged/punished even. Learning to trust someone enough to share my feelings first and then later learning that I am not invisible/unworthy and things I say can and do affect other people. I just wish L had handled that 2nd part better with me.

So sorry about your arm--hope it improves soon and you won't need any medical attention. Otherwise, sounds like a lovely trip. Maybe there are online reviews of how gluten-free some of those restaurants really are? Though I understand your reticence to try one.

Hi Jane. You make some good points here. My mom taught me to keep my emotions and feelings inside, and there's this part of me that's wonders if I go too far in the other direction at times now. So I can see Dr. T's point in taking the other person's wants/needs/reactions into account.

At the same time, he's my therapist, and I feel like if there's any place that I should be able to feel open to share my feelings, it should be in the therapy space. I mean, assuming I'm not making threats toward him, it seems like he should be able to handle my feelings without telling me he might have to tell me to "take a step back."

Though he clarified yesterday that the "step back" comment was not about my sharing my feelings, but pushing or questioning him about his, like asking the previous week whether he feels love for his friends but just doesn't share it, or if he just doesn't feel that. He said "Feel, don't share." (A couple weeks ago, I said how maybe I just defined love differently from him, and he'd said "I don't tell my friends I love them, for example.") Note that I very specifically did *not* come out and ask whether he felt love toward me (and said I didn't expect to hear it back), though I imagine the question was implied.

I agree that shame is not a good teacher, and I tend to feel shame rather easily. I don't think Dr. T intentionally shamed me here, but it was like he couldn't hear me over his own feelings and reactions. He said he values this being an "authentic relationship," where we're each honest with each other and thinks that will help me. Though...hm, wasn't I just being honest with him in sharing my feelings? Why should I have to keep my feelings in for the sake of his comfort, but he gets to share his, even though some really hurt me? (Not just in regard to this, but other things.) Hm, that might be a question to ask him at some point--maybe not right now. He does say he tries to be as "gentle" with me as possible.

I'm glad you've had success with EMDR. Out of curiosity, did you get any treatment, such as medication, for the ADHD? I ask because I strongly suspect I have this as well, though T's and pdocs have always said "Oh, it's your anxiety." Dr. T agrees that I have definite executive functioning issues, which is a component. I wonder at times if it could be worth trying treatment for that, just to see if it might help me. And possibly EMDR.

This is a good point, too. As it can be important to respect others' boundaries. R drew the comparison to my D (regarding Dr. T). She doesn't generally like being hugged. So I always ask if she wants a hug (like if she's upset and seems to want comfort). I don't just go in for one. (I'm not really a hugger either.)

Also, she's OK with eye contact, but as another example, I've read how painful eye contact can be for many autistics. So it's not right to be pushing kids or adults to make eye contact when it's uncomfortable for them.

And I tend to have a song going in my head much of the time as well.

Thanks, Artie. It does seem to have led to some new understanding,


And it does seem like the main issue for him was my pushing him on his feelings, not sharing my own. He even said he wasn't that bothered by my raising my voice to him in anger at the end of the one session (I called it "yelling," but he said later it was more raising my voice than yelling).

It's interesting that Dr. T (or "Mr. T"--though now I'm picturing him with gold chains and a mohawk) has used the onion analogy, too, saying that talking about the relationship is the center of the onion. I had the thought a couple weeks ago (before the conflict part of it happened) that it felt we were really at the center of the onion and could make some good progress here. Then...whatever this was happened. (Is it a rupture? A conflict? I'm not totally sure what to call it in this case.)

And that was part of my frustration/hurt/anger, that it felt like we were in a really good spot therapeutically (like drawing connections between things in my present and past, too, not just about him), then all his stuff got in the way.

I asked him earlier this week if he'd be willing to examine things without putting his feelings in there. Like, could I say, for example, "It's hard for me when you resume charging for email." And talk about what that is about for me, rather than his explaining reasons for doing that, like how he has to make a living. He seems open to doing that. Because if he interjects all his personal feelings in there, then I can't really examine those things.

Which is also what happened way back with the standing, as you mention. Where he could have been like, "Wow, what is going on for LT here, why is this such a big deal for her? Is this tied to something else?" Instead of "I will NOT stand, and that's that!"

And I'm very sorry you're in pain again. Maybe consider making a doctor's appointment?

Is he helping you to understand what happens for you which leads you to push him on his feelings? And in contrast, who cares about how he feels about you pushing him?! It is his issue which he should take elsewhere to explore. The point of working with counter transference, or the therapist showing you their response, is that it needs to be in service of you - not to make you more emotionally compliant and acceptable.

He seems to repeatedly side step the therapeutic material in favour of considering his own feelings. The fact that you apologised for trying to analyse him (and that he accepted your apology) is a really good example of this. If he is allowing that kind of table-turning to occur in the therapy, he has poor awareness of his own boundary. It is his job to unpick the re-enactments between the two of you and hopefully avoid them. Instead, he seems to be upholding the re-enactment with the aim of teaching you about his reactions (because he is only teaching you what his reactions are, they are not universal reactions - lots of relationally based therapists would welcome your intense feelings about them).

I say re-enactment because I am assuming something similar has happened for you with others in terms of needing to understand them to feel safe, or working out the relationship to ensure your emotional survival. Essentially looking after the other - another dimension which is being played out here as the other therapist encourages you to consider Dr T's differences and make adjustments accordingly.

It all seems topsy-turvy and like stuff is being missed all over the place. I am waffling on really, but something about this reminds me of my ex-therapist. Beware of a therapist who heralds the relationship as the core of the onion when they are not capable of processing their own material (and don't even have the mechanisms in place to do so).

Understanding ADHD has honestly helped me more than most anxiety treatment.i have always had anxiety and I go ages in between panic now. I credit that to EMDR but also I am on low level adderall. I cried so much understanding why I feel things so deeply sometimes and what that comes from so I guess I'm biased lol

I have read a lot about unmasking autism and adhd and it has brought a lot into focus. Including that I always try to hide my true feelings for the comfort of everyone else instead of wondering and tackling why those feelings exist. It's not that I give myself a pass to leak my feelings on other people, it's that I can tackle them and help me feel better which in turn stops me being awful to be around.

Understanding why I do things has helped me figure out how to stop them more than just being ashamed of how I reacted and how it affects people. I always felt like I understood the fights my wife and I had but powerless to stop being grumpy and I hated myself. Now I tackled why. I understand just how overstimulated I was ALL of the time and how to calm that down so now I don't blow up at people at all.

I know you have emetophobia too and interestingly a lot of people who have it are neurodivergent and it can come from a place of sensory overload.

I'm not saying we should all go around not thinking how we affect people and behaving how we do, I'm only saying that in some cases it can be helpful to examine why it's happening. Looking at that, with compassion, can really help calm your nervous system down and prevent it from the root.

Thanks. Im waiting for the med to wear off. Also my dr said 6 weeks as he thought it waz a muscle strain. Jerk. I think its my gallbladder.

Re the standing: my iterations with my t were, as i have mentioned before, about my asking him to stop by my apartment on his way to/from the airport on vacations. Which is similar to asking your t to stand, no? "I want you to do this." We NEVER got into a yes/no argument about it, though. It waz never a battle of the wills. I never felt entitled to it.

Why did it become a "big deal" for you? Why do you keep trying to win arguments with him? How do these things keep turning into arguments? Who else tells you "no", that you want dr t to compensate you for that by giving in? What is the right question to ask here?!

Ex-hankster - sorry you are not healed yet. I get really pissed when mds don't listen to women and particularly when they blow off those of us who are older. It is a travesty in western medicine.

It is Gene Kelly night on some really obscure channel I found using antenna tv. So now Fred Astaire musical music in my head has been replaced with I Got Rhythm

Thanks for the comments, Comrade. I've been thinking more about my apologizing to him. In the moment, it felt really good hearing him say "I really appreciate that. It means a lot to me" (and seeming to genuinely mean it). And I felt good about it for a while afterward. I felt annoyed when a friend told me I had no need to apologize to him. Like, "No, this is a good thing!"

But as I'm thinking about it more, I'm feeling less good about it. Isn't this basically just people pleasing? I felt that I needed to apologize to him about this to keep the relationship safe. I mean, there's nothing wrong with apologizing when you genuinely feel you were in the wrong or if you inadvertently do/say something to hurt someone. But I'm just wondering whether I did so for the right reasons.

Like you said, a good therapist would want to unpack what happened more. Maybe say, "Why did you feel the need to apologize to me?" But I get the sense he's thinking more, "Oh good, she apologized. She really needed to for pushing me so much." And like you said, to try to figure out *why* I was pushing him so much.

We did talk about that a little, in the sense of how I try to "figure him out." He said he especially noticed that in my first year of seeing him, the questions I asked about him and his personal life. Where I don't ask as much now. I said he's shared a lot with me on his own (he disclosed a lot more during the pandemic).

I said how I think in trying to figure people out, it's like if I can understand them more, it makes me feel like I can better avoid rejection/abandonment. Like what you said. To feel safer. He seemed to get that. But I'm sure we need to explore that more. And the pushing is a bit different from asking something like, "What kind of music are you into?" Especially pushing regarding his emotions.

And this comment made me think, too: "another dimension which is being played out here as the other therapist encourages you to consider Dr T's differences and make adjustments accordingly." I mean, not that it would have overly been helpful if R had simply been like, "Yeah, he's an idiot, he just should have accepted your love and not gotten all weird about it." But it seemed that she was painting me as the one who'd been in the wrong and needed to make amends. Rather than addressing what all might have really been going on there (we did talk about how I may have been talking to Dr. T as if he were my father, like what I might have wanted from him as a kid but didn't get, but I also don't think I should have to apologize for that).

So, I don't know...lots to think about particularly in terms of whether I can go forward with him. As opposed to when I left Friday thinking, "Oh, good, everything is safe in the relationship now." It may be safe, but is it good or helpful?