[sunrise]

I really do not know how to do this divorce. Why isn't there an instruction manual? At our last meeting to decide child/custody issues (with coach[T], child therapist and the two parents present), I didn't know how to raise the hard issues. I'm just too much of a wimp. Plus, this is about the kids, right? So I try to keep "me" out of it, and put my personal issues aside. Isn't that how it is supposed to go? Yet after the meeting I was left wondering whether I said what needed to be said.

I told T later in our individual session that I wasn't sure that at the meeting I had done enough. I was trying to do what was best for my kids and keep me and my personal issues out of it, and squish down my feelings. He said, "no, no, no." I guess I'm not supposed to do that. I don't get how this is supposed to work, then. T says if I leave me out of it, I lose my strength. He said my self needs to speak. My lawyer says I have no voice in this process. I agree, but I don't know how to have one. I'm just too weak. Then T says I shouldn't bring the hard stuff up at these child meetings anyway, but should wait until the lawyers are present. Huh? Why is that? If I am going to have a voice it will be easier for me when fewer people are there. It's either at the smaller meetings or not at all from my point of view. And I can't even do that. I feel I am failing. T says just use these meetings to get all the issues out on the table. Well, why didn't he say this before the meetings? It does not make sense to me at all. I also told T I felt the meeting had been "boring," which is a strange reaction, but I think now I felt that way because not enough happened, not enough got said, so it was "boring" to me, just same old same old.

T says we have to do more "ego work", to build my ego up so I can do this. Apparently that is what he was doing in our session last week, and also when he phoned me. Sheesh, I thought we were just talking and connecting, but he was doing "ego work" with me. I guess it worked and he accomplished his goal with me, but now I need more (and somehow I feel manipulated). He said we can role play to practice the interactions and he will be my husband (and presumably say awful things to me and I will try to respond with strength). I don't even like my H, how can I have T, who I like tremendously, play the role of this horrible person in my life? Seriously, that is supposed to be somehow helpful? It would mess with my mind. Has anyone ever done role-playing in therapy?

We have another meeting to do child stuff next week (with the foursome). I really don't know how to do it, since I apparently did it wrong last time. This is making me feel very, very uncertain, afraid that every word I say will somehow be a misstep. I don't understand how to keep the kids' best interests in the forefront but still include my voice. Those things seem in opposition. And it is scary to use my voice (where is it, anyway?). My H is there sitting across from me and I am so cowed by him.

i am wondering why you would feel your children's best interests are not in line with your own wants? Is it because it limits your H's access? Is there a good reason for that beyond a dislike on your part?

i have no way to offer advice about that stuff... it's way beyond me.. coaches? all these therapists... wow... you have a lot more strength than i my dear... i dont know how you do it. i have trouble juggling just me.

i have refused role play... i cant deal with feeling dumb and i would feel oh so dumb... not because its a dumb thing to do, more like playing pretend.. id feel weird. T gets annoyed with that.

im sorry.. i wanted to be all supportive, and i dont know if i said one supportive thing

look... you are so very strong and thoughtful.. you dont just do things willy nilly... you have a great depth to you. Trust yourself.

[Junerain]

Squishing down feelings doesn't sound good......it sounds like you overwhelmed with the profoundness of what is happening here, I would be too. Perhaps there IS an instruction manual about divorce- I would go to amazon.com type in divorce and find a book that represents how you feel and what you need from a book.

[Junerain]

How does this sound?

http://www.amazon.com/Truth-About-Ch...6120969&sr=8-4

It's about children, divorce, and feelings, and knowing your ex will always be a part of you and your kids life.

[sunrise]

Thanks for your support, JelloFluff.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
i am wondering why you would feel your children's best interests are not in line with your own wants?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">It's not so much my own wants but my own issues I bring to the table. To give one example, when we discuss protecting the girls from my H's pornography, I bring my own problems with this to the table with me, such as that I felt extremely disrespected for years when my H would play graphic porn right in front of me, with no concern for my feelings. Imagine trying to have a serious discussion with someone about parenting issues when they are sitting right there at their computer watching porno and not giving you the time of day. Or he would turn to face me to discuss the parenting concern, but leave the porno playing on the screen so I would see it in the background as we tried to talk. After those bad experiences, the porn is just a trigger for me. But those feelings are about me and my hurt not about protecting my kids, so in our current meetings I try to stuff my personal feelings down as they aren't relevant to the child discussion. But then T says I shouldn't. But it seems like I should. And I don't know what to do. I thought I was supposed to do that and just focus on the kids' needs. So when we're discussing how to protect my girls, am I supposed to bring up all those hurtful instances from the past? Is that what he wants? I don't really want that. I really don't get it. I just know T said to me, "no, no, no," so obviously I am not doing it right. I feel very reprimanded and I don't know how to do this right.

Junerain, thanks for the book suggestion. That does look like a good book. In reading the description, it says about the ex-spouses having a good relationship, free of anger, emotions, etc., so they can co-parent effectively. And that makes me confused again. I feel I have heard that many times and I have tried (quite successfully) to not be angry, to be professional and businesslike with my H, to stuff down all my hurt feelings about all of the porn, his anger, the abuse, etc. So I thought I was doing what this book said to do, and other books I have read too. But T says "no, no, no", don't squish my feelings down. But I thought I was supposed to do that. Don't the books say to do that?

I am just totally confused.

I feel like I just don't know how to be.

[MissCharlotte]

Hi Sunny

I am sorry you are having such an awful time with this divorce.

Maybe you can just stick you "your truth," insofar as your children are concerned. You are a good mother and have good instincts. You know what is best for your children. So, stand by that and don't be afraid to voice it. So what if someone doesn't like it?

As far as role playing go, I haven't done this but T has mentioned the possiblity. OMG role playing as your husband? Wow, that could be fun. (Okay, mind out of the gutter, Miss!)

Sunny, you and your T have a fine history of working through difficult things together. Maybe you need to let him lead on this one and see where it goes. I know that when I cannot see the forest through the trees it is confusing and causes anxiety.

Just go one step at a time and stick to your truth.

Peace.

[sunrise]

Thank you, MissCharlotte.
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
MissCharlotte said:
stand by that and don't be afraid to voice it. So what if someone doesn't like it?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> I can't. It's unsafe for me. I'm scared of him. I don't know how to stand up to him. He has pushed me down for 20 years. I can't unlearn my appeasing behavior toward him overnight. (And I don't want to, I just want to be rid of him.) It sounds so simple when you say it, "so what if someone doesn't like it?" but that is a big problem in our marriage, I just get cowed by him when he gets angry and will do anything to avoid displeasing him. Yes, I know that is dysfunctional, but it is almost physically impossible for me to go against him. By your statement, I can see that you are so very brave.

When I was in T's waiting room last session, I read a part of a poem in a book that reminded me so much of how I feel:

The Eastern Wind, strengthless,
Tries to make a ripple, and gives up

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
OMG role playing as your husband? Wow, that could be fun.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> That made me smile, thanks.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Maybe you need to let him lead on this one and see where it goes.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">When I see him next week, I am going to tell him how totally bewildered I am and see if he can explain better how I am supposed to be. Saying "no, no, no" to me tells me how not to be but not how to be.

My truth is that I want to be out of this marriage. It is hard to think of anything beyond that.

[MissCharlotte]

((((Sunny))))

I want to scream at him for you and tell him to back off! I am sorry I misinterpreted your original post. I was thinking more in line of who cares if lawyers, and other professionals don't like what you have to say, not your H.

I am not as brave as you think and you sound very brave to me. You have been working on this separation for so long and have been meticulously going through each of the steps so that your daughters are well taken care of. Now, that is brave!

Just keep working at it. I think you are doing an awesome job. One thing at a time.

[Perna]

It's very much about you! You are divorcing your husband. Keep in the front part of your heart and brain why you are doing that and follow where that leads; that's what it's all about.

You are even more important than the kids because you have to support them so you need to be satisfied and feel supported and have your stuff together so you can "show" them how to grow and live with their stuff together (hopefully).

[sunrise]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
MissCharlotte said:
Just go one step at a time and stick to your truth.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Perna said:
Keep in the front part of your heart and brain why you are doing that and follow where that leads

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Thank you Perna and MissCharlotte. This sounds like very good advice. I will try... I did have a success I am very proud of along these lines. There is someone working for me and H on the D, a professional--I have written about him before and how I can just not get along with him. He seems antagonistic to me, deliberately "misunderstands" what I have to say, twists what I say, makes errors not in my favor, etc. I've just wanted to bury him in a hole for a long time but others have discouraged me. Well, I finally took a stand. Enough is enough. He will still do some behind the scenes work for us, but I never have to talk to him or be in the same room with him again. I felt so good about this, so much more at ease, and so much less threatened. I do need to follow my own truth and not take others' advice on what I know in my gut to be right (if I could only figure that out more often). So at least I did this one small thing....

[Perna]

At the end of the day, when everyone else goes "home" you're still going to be there in your life so you have to feather your own nest :-)

[Lemon]

(((Sunny))) You are so impressive working through each piece of the D and I know you are making progress. Is the end, or at least a milestone, in sight? It sounds like you've worked through a lot of the process already, so I'm hoping deciding some of these parenting issues means you'll be able to file soon.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
sunrise said:
After those bad experiences, the porn is just a trigger for me. But those feelings are about me and my hurt not about protecting my kids, so in our current meetings I try to stuff my personal feelings down as they aren't relevant to the child discussion. But then T says I shouldn't.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I don't think those feelings are just about you. There is a lot of that and that is ok. But, I'm wondering if those feeling are also all about you protecting your girls and wanting something better for them. It is about protecting them. Could that be why T said "no no no"? That he wants you to trust yourself to know that part of your experiences will help you formulate what is best for your children.

[Kiya]

i know nothing about this stuff, so i'm just gonna offer lots of hugs!!!!!
Kiya

[chaotic13]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Sunrise said:
To give one example, when we discuss protecting the girls from my H's pornography, I bring my own problems with this to the table with me, such as that I felt extremely disrespected for years when my H would play graphic porn right in front of me, with no concern for my feelings.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
I don't think you should suppress these feelings, I think you should used them to give you the strength to demand that your children are not exposed to the same disrespect and given the support they deserve. Maybe in these meetings you don't have to unload all details behind these feelings, just use them to stand firm and say... NO! porn is not acceptable. ..Or Yes, you will provide xyz..

If your have trouble standing up for yourself then do it for your girls. My mother was verbally abused, oppressed, never put herself first, allow my father devalue her and ultimately lived a very unhappy life. What was the end result, a daughter who witnessed this, and inadvertently ended repeating the cycle.

Sunrise, your gut was telling you that the jackass on your "team" needed to go. If you've stood up for yourself on this issue you can do it again. You've been walking on eggshells for the past 20 years, it takes time to regain trust and confidence in yourself again. You're doing well, keep going.

As for the divorce manual. Keep all these post, your writing one :-)

[Kiya]

sunrise - maybe you can "step into" a social worker role of sorts and view the situation from those eyes. is porn ok in a house with kids? what are the chances of the kids seeing it? being used by it? becoming it? what are the chances of H treating them the way he treated you?

stand outside yourself and push for rights. You can do it. call on a special SW or T ego-state from within.

[Junerain]

How about this book- the author, Judith, went from being abused to helping others as a domestic violence counselor.....

http://www.amazon.com/Time-Break-Fre...=sip_rech_dp_3

[sunrise]

Thanks, Lemon, Kiya, McKell, and Junerain.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Lemon wrote:
I'm hoping deciding some of these parenting issues means you'll be able to file soon

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">We should be able to file very soon and then it is 3 months before it can become final.

I really don't know about the porn, the anger, etc. and how serious it is for my girls. How do you decide? I have professionals to consult on this so that I don't have to be the social worker myself--they are the trained experts so they should know. But l have felt there is no clear dividing line. My T states they have decided it is not necessary to call CPS about any of this, so that is good. Is that enough? He says he doesn't know the answer to that question. I don't either. I asked him several times last session. "Good question, I don't know," he kept answering. How am I supposed to decide?

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
mckell13 wrote:
What was the end result, a daughter who witnessed this, and inadvertently ended repeating the cycle.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I know McKell, that is very depressing to me. By being such a wimp, I model that behavior to my girls. I hate it. A few times one of my daughters has said to me, perhaps in response to what she perceives as my not being strong, "you don't have to do what Dad says anymore!" I feel so bad when I hear that, like her experience of our marriage was me being a doormat for him. But she has told one of our professionals that "when Dad got mad, Mom would protect us," so I feel like at least she saw me doing some good.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
mckell13 wrote:
Sunrise, your gut was telling you that the jackass on your "team" needed to go. If you've stood up for yourself on this issue you can do it again.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Yes, I feel so good about this. It is truly a triumph for me. A huge weight lifted off my back and I did it myself. So, yeah, maybe I can do other things too....

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
mcKell13 wrote:
As for the divorce manual. Keep all these post, your writing one :-)

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
I have thought of writing a book on divorce, because I have looked for a very specific book on divorce out there, that covers specific issues, and it does not seem to exist. If I am looking for it and wanting it, maybe there are others too who would benefit. This is something I would like to talk to my T about some day, when the forest fires are out, as he has said to me before that he is thinking of writing a book on divorce. I would like to talk about our ideas for books.

Junerain, thanks for your book suggestion. I think those meditations might be useful to me.

Today is a sunny day.

[chaotic13]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Sunrise said:
By being such a wimp, I model that behavior to my girls. I hate it.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
AH! if you are accepting responsibility for this, then you also have to accept responsibility for showing them how to stand up for themselves and their future families. You are modeling that you, even after making mistakes and suffering for years, are able to take back control of your life and pursue happiness. You are modeling that there are times in life when you have to take the tough road, endure a lot of pain and suffering, in order to free yourself. You are modeling to them that real mothers are human but are willing to sacrifice everything to protect and care for their children.

Most importantly you are showing them that happiness is worth pursuing.

My mother modeled dedication, tolerance, duty, sacrifice, commitment. Unfortunately her inaction sent the overriding message that ...women are subordinates to men, not deserving of happiness/respect, not worthy of seeking personal fulfillment, and should feel guilty when they want more.

You are teaching your children that living is more than just existing. This is going to be what matters most to them in the end.

[sunrise]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
mckell13 said:
Unfortunately her inaction sent the overriding message that ...women are subordinates to men, not deserving of happiness/respect, not worthy of seeking personal fulfillment, and should feel guilty when they want more.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I feel really really bad now.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I just get cowed by him when he gets angry and will do anything to avoid displeasing him. Yes, I know that is dysfunctional, but it is almost physically impossible for me to go against him.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

sunrise.. i remember you attempting to connect with me at certain times when i talked about the issues i faced... and i was not able to be very receptive at the time... i dont think i ever rejected you, but i wasn't able to appreciate that someone knew how i felt. Part of that was the use of the word abuse at all... even as i tried to learn to use it i couldn't accept it because abuse was what happened to battered women and i felt BAD to use it... didn't deserve to use it... couldn't relate to another

but i cant help but be touched by what i just quoted from you... i said something similar to T just last week... H has power over me still because you can't just unlearn those things overnight. He can't hurt you anymore... doesn't matter because after a while you dont have to, it becomes conditioning... i understand that feeling.

you have so much courage and strength, trust what your heart tells you is the right thing.

[Kiya]

Sunrise, don't feel bad - Mckell is telling you that by getting out of the relationship you are showing your kids that you are important! and therefore they are important too and need to stick up for themselves!!! it is a very GOOD lesson!

"You are teaching your children that living is more than just existing. This is going to be what matters most to them in the end."

exactly. My mom didn't leave the relationship either, he left her when he had used up nearly all her savings, energy, and stamina. It took us both to see what a bad guy he was... and taking even longer to get some positive perspective on our own lives and worth. You're doing you and your kids a HUGE favor.

I hope you can see that!!!!

[chaotic13]

((((Sunrise))))

My main point was :Most importantly you are showing them that happiness is worth pursuing.

This statement: My mother modeled ....blah, blah, blah. Was intended to show you the difference between what I see you (& hopefully I) are doing and what my mother modeled. there is a clear difference at least in my mind.

If you are upset about how long it took you to reach the decision that you [i]alone[/i} cannot fix your marriage or help your husband learn to respect and treat others as human beings deserve to be treated--DON'T BE. What this shows it that you are compassionate, that you allowed yourself to love him deeply and that you went to great lengths to salvage this relationship. The fact that it failed, will not be because you are didn't give everything possible to make it work. It failed because your husband was unwilling to do the same. I see you as a very strong human being who was willing to open herself to fully to love but also willing to let it go. I admire you and I think your kids will too.

[chaotic13]

Sorry for all the typos in my last post it was too late to fix it. I actually when to church today and was running late. Sunrise, I have a lot of other thoughts on the good things our children are learning from witnessing our struggles. I don't have time to write them out today.

Unfortunately, because of the type of relationships we've known, we've been conditioned over many many years to devalue, discount, and dismiss all of the positive things about ourselves. We have to fight hard not to allow ourselves to fall back into the unhealthy pattern of focusing on all the negatives and all of our faults. Sounds like now would be a good time to break out the Patricia Evans book and refresh your memory about how your husband works his magic. Disarm him! Even though you are physically separated he is using the divorce process as a final assault. He is loosing his power source and is attempting to use his best weapon against your inner self--YOU. The only difference is that in his arrogance he hasn't realized YOU are not the same. You are stronger and much much smarter now. We are here to help you fight his attack. Dissolve the illusions he trying to create, and remember how far you have come.

[Kiya]

here here, mckell!!