phone session

I had a phone session yesterday because I was sick. It was... Nice. It is strange... But in a way it felt more intimate than an in-person session. Because his voice felt so close. Right up beside my ear.

I'm not sure if the content was that different... But I raised a couple of things that I've never raised before. He seemed surprised or maybe a bit startled. I didn't think it was that deep or anything like that. Just expressed a concern that I'm turning 30 this year and all I've done with my life is been a student. That if I get some offer (which I may or may not get) then I won't have finished up until I'm 35. That that concerns me a little... That I haven't met anyone yet (that I broke up with my boyfriend and I really wanted things to work with him). That I don't exactly want children yet and I may never want children, but that I don't want to rule that out, either...

It was a nice session. I think I prefer them than in person sessions in a way. I'm fairly sure he doesn't see it that way.. Maybe it has something to do with a session taking me half a day to get to and get back from etc compared to a phone call of one hour. I don't know. He is nice, though. I think I love him... In a I just wish I could curl up in his arms kinda way...

((((((((((((( Kim_johnson )))))))))))))))
It sounds like a good session, I think it is very interesting that you could open up more over the phone.

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But in a way it felt more intimate than an in-person session.

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I had the same reaction during my last phone session. I was just able to focus on the soothing voice and really hear what she was saying without being exbarrassed/feeling the anxiety I usually get during in-person sessions. And less anxiety means more chance that I can focus on what I'm feeling and open up more. So yeah, I'm also all about the phone sessions right now (assuming there's no cell phone reception issues getting in the way -- that is a definite downside!).

Just a thought -

If any of you are lucky enough to have health insurance that partially covers therapy, it may not cover phone sessions. So, please check.

I felt the same way when I had a phone session. For me, not being able to see his reactions or no reaction was a help. I am so sensitive to the non-verbal that sometimes I can't get past something he says or doesn't say.

That is one of my biggest issues always feeling like there is an underlying agenda...phone sessions can help break that up for me.

Yeah, it was a nice session. I think there was less anxiety on my part. Though maybe when I was trying to explain to him why I felt there was less anxiety on my part I became anxious again...

I think there might be something to the notion that not being able to see his reactions or lack thereof... I am really very aware of those in person and they affect the direction of my conversation. There was some of that on the phone too.

I have this saying 'if you want to be treated as a person then you need to act like a person'. That is my take on the whole 'feminine' thing. I see people trying to do some combination of sexy and competent and they do seem to battle with guys not really treating them as competent / seeing them as a sexual object. My motto is: 'if you want to be treated as a person then you need to act like a person'. And that is my justification for dressing conservatively... Not dowdy exactly... Just not in a way that draws attention to my legs or my butt or my breasts...

And I can tell he doesn't exactly agree... I wonder what his wife is like lol. I can tell he doesn't exactly agree. Even on the phone. He was like 'yeah, you've said that before' in a slightly dubious tone.

We chatted a bit about whether some women act all feminine and posture themselves with their butt and boobs thrust out because they are making a conscious effort or whether it is just natural to them. We concluded we didn't really know...

Then I thought... There is a fair amount of masculine posturing (swaggering etc) in some circles, too. I guess you do what was reinforced by your parents / peer group and after a while it becomes natural to you. Funny how the guys in my circles don't really feel the need to swagger or engage in he-man ******** and yet the females (sometimes) feel the need to dress in a matter I consider provocative... Weird indeed...

Well an actually although we react to their non-verbal communication they need to see ours. So, most T's probably wouldn't want too many phone sessions.

My T will talk on the phone with me, but he prefers for us to be together - for the reason lauren_helene said - there is so much more going on than just what we're saying. And actually, for me, I prefer to be with him in person, so I *can* see his reaction. When we're together, I can see his gaze, his smile, his body language, and I know I'm safe and accepted. On the phone, it's too easy for me to imagine him rolling his eyes or whatever. Hmmm. Don't I sound secure! lol

I rarely talk to mine outside of the scheduled days. A couple of times I have talked to my pdoc over the phone. Both times I had felt like I was going crazy and he calmed and reassured me, but there wasn't any real therapy. I don't think I would want anything else. I need the visual cues.

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And that is my justification for dressing conservatively... Not dowdy exactly... Just not in a way that draws attention to my legs or my butt or my breasts...

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Hey,
I really like your values here. Theres a time and a place for dressing sexually, but that is not when wanting to share focus on getting something serious achieved. Great!

I have a value about handshakes vs hugs. I feel the handshake allows continueing eye contact and it is the tradtional gesture of cooperation. Many people think I'm being too formal when I reach out my hand.

This one about the phone is funny to me. I have had the same experience, for me Th. over the phone was INTENSE! I think human communication can happen in so many ways as long as the intent is there. It depends on the message, not the way it is delivered!!

riverx

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kim_johnson said:
I think there might be something to the notion that not being able to see his reactions or lack thereof... I am really very aware of those in person and they affect the direction of my conversation. There was some of that on the phone too.

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I am so attuned to my T's nonverbals and he is the same with me-- even something as small as an eyebrow raise gets me all riled up and I have to know exactly what that meant for him. I tend to "go off" in session a lot with difficult material so the phone doesn't let me explore such material as much-- because there is way less opportunity for him to ground me if we are not face to face.

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I have this saying 'if you want to be treated as a person then you need to act like a person'. That is my take on the whole 'feminine' thing. I see people trying to do some combination of sexy and competent and they do seem to battle with guys not really treating them as competent / seeing them as a sexual object. My motto is: 'if you want to be treated as a person then you need to act like a person'. And that is my justification for dressing conservatively... Not dowdy exactly... Just not in a way that draws attention to my legs or my butt or my breasts...

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I think it is possible to balance both. Of course it depends what the intention is. I like to mix sexy with competent. I do not dress in a conservative manner, and I wouldn't feel comfortable doing so. However, I don't battle with how men see me because I'm married and I could care less about the thoughts and judgements of people who don't know me. Do you feel that you need a justification for dressing conservatively? Has anyone ever commented on that or tried to tell you to do otherwise? I think it is just important that you feel comfortable with how you are.

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And I can tell he doesn't exactly agree... I wonder what his wife is like lol. I can tell he doesn't exactly agree. Even on the phone. He was like 'yeah, you've said that before' in a slightly dubious tone.

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Ugh, I never want to imagine what my T's wife is like, lol. When I do imagine her, she is a 3 ft. ogre with a wart on her nose.

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We chatted a bit about whether some women act all feminine and posture themselves with their butt and boobs thrust out because they are making a conscious effort or whether it is just natural to them. We concluded we didn't really know...

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This is interesting. Again, I think it depends on the woman and her intention. There are so many definitions for "acting feminine" and it differs for each woman. For example, I am sure that you and I have distinctly different opinions on what would be personally feminine for us. I don't think that shoving one's boobs in someone's face or sticking out one's butt is particularly feminine or classy, lol.

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Then I thought... There is a fair amount of masculine posturing (swaggering etc) in some circles, too. I guess you do what was reinforced by your parents / peer group and after a while it becomes natural to you. Funny how the guys in my circles don't really feel the need to swagger or engage in he-man ******** and yet the females (sometimes) feel the need to dress in a matter I consider provocative... Weird indeed...

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You are definitely right about the men! The male friends that I surround myself tend to have more feminine qualities than the majority of males. I thought it was interesting that you used the word "need" when talking about females dressing in a way you would consider provocatively. Again, everyone's opinion differs on what is provocative based on what you are used to or how you dress-- I never felt the "need" to dress the way I do (no, I don't dress like a prostitute, lol... but you would never catch me in a loose fitting t-shirt, baggy clothes, or sneakers)-- I just always felt comfortable and natural in the way that I dress. I tend to also enjoy dressing on the more creative/flashy side-- funky accesories, a pair of metallic gold shoes, etc.-- so I wonder how that factors into the equation. I know that I have never been comfortable blending in. If I went out in a t-shirt and jeans I would feel so, so weird. And if you went out in gold wedges and a skirt, you would probably feel so, so weird. It is interesting what comes natural to us and where that came from. I don't see it as a need, for me personally. Or perhaps it could be a need to stand out a bit, but it is more about a level of comfort and naturalness. I think for some people it can be a need for much more sexual reasons.

Sorry if I didn't respond much to the "T" portion of this thread, but I just thought that the concepts raised were really interesting and didn't want to ignore that.

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I have this saying 'if you want to be treated as a person then you need to act like a person'. That is my take on the whole 'feminine' thing. I see people trying to do some combination of sexy and competent and they do seem to battle with guys not really treating them as competent / seeing them as a sexual object. My motto is: 'if you want to be treated as a person then you need to act like a person'.

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But a 'person' who likes their feminity IS dressing like a person. When is treated as a sexual object it isn't because she's 'asking' for that treatment, it's because she becomes the object of another's projection and / or prejudices.

I have just discovered, after more than half my life dressing in comfy jeans, 'shirts', and sneakers, that feminie clothes are comfortable and fun too. This has curiously come about because my T dresses femininely. She isn't slim, nor fat, but she feels good expressing her femininity in pretty girlish clothing that almost always shows cleavage. So, imitating her (I wonder if there is a name for that--it isn't twinning, but copying T), I now own several skirts and a dress. I think I rejected my femininity as part of rejecting my mother who was rejecting.

But, the phone session, and having T's voice right in your ear. I love that too. It does feel very close, intimate to have T's voice right there... almost like I imagine it would sound and feel if all curled up in T's lap.

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ECHOES said:
I think I rejected my femininity as part of rejecting my mother who was rejecting.

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Echoes, this is interesting-- I think I embraced my femininity (or what I perceive to be feminine to me) because my mother did not (and does not) care for herself. She wears old clothes, doesn't care about hygiene, hair, or anything like that-- has totally let herself go. Me, I can't leave the house without makeup and fun/funky/cute/nice outfit. I did the opposite thing of "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree." I got the hell away from that tree as fast and as far as I could.

This is a really interesting topic to me too. I'm more like kim_johnson--I am not a girly girl. I've always wanted men to like me for who I was inside--my intellect, feelings, soul. I didn't want them attracted to me because I dressed in tight clothing and showed cleavage, wore lipstick, etc. So I have always dressed in comfortable, simple clothing. I love T-shirts. I only wear comfortable shoes. I can't squish my feet into those painful, pointed, fashionable shoes at all--my foot is just shaped all wrong. I always felt there was something wrong about being in pain and physically uncomfortable just to "look good" or even worse, just to please a man. I always wanted men to like me for who I am, not for my clothing and make-up. Also, the field I went into values intellect, not appearances, so none of the women dress flashy and girly. That's just the professional culture, so I was a perfect fit. I remember once when I was still in training, I went to a professional conference and there was this one woman there who wore a lot of make-up and perfume, and we all didn't know what to make of her! (As I've aged, my views have relaxed a bit and I now wear some make-up. My skin tone is not the best anymore and using a bit of foundation really helps even it out. So I can appreciate that using aids like make-up can definitely help one's appearance.)

> I think it is possible to balance both.

I'm not so sure...

> I don't battle with how men see me because I'm married and I could care less about the thoughts and judgements of people who don't know me.

I do care how people see me. When visiting professors come (etc) then I want them to listen to what I say and to treat what I say with the same consideration and respect that they show their male colleagues. When people are visiting for a short amount of time that initial impression is all they are left with because they simply aren't around for long enough for them to get to know me as a person.

> There are so many definitions for "acting feminine" and it differs for each woman.

I think that is probably right.

> I don't think that shoving one's boobs in someone's face or sticking out one's butt is particularly feminine or classy, lol.

No. I mean more that some women tend to hold themselves such that attention is naturally drawn to their boobs / *** / legs. The attention of males and females alike, but it tends to have a negative impact on the consideration and respect that males show them when the males don't know them.

> I tend to also enjoy dressing on the more creative/flashy side-- funky accesories, a pair of metallic gold shoes, etc.-- so I wonder how that factors into the equation.

I don't have an issue with creativity / originality / well cut clothes (that are fitting) etc etc etc. I'm just talking about clothes that make boobs / *** / legs particularly salient. E.g., what are high heels if they aren't about showing off the calf muscle? I know some women wear them to given themselves added height - but then you don't need to wear them with the mini skirts etc...

It is probably hard to explain what I mean... I guess I just have an issue because my desire is for me to be inconspicuous in my dress. What is important to me (the most important thing to me) is that people consider what I have to say and take it on its merits. I think that information about gender / age / social class / sex / attractiveness etc etc etc that is gained in ftf interactions is unfortunate because it tends to influence people either positively or negatively with respect to considering what you have to say on your merits. As such... My aim is for my personal appearance to be as 'inconspicuous' as possible. My main gripe in life is that I'm uncomfortable in social settings where one becomes conspicuous precisely because one isn't trying to be conspicuous. For example, I wouldn't like to go to a ball because I wouldn't like to wear a ball gown. Not wearing a ball gown makes you particularly salient, however, and so... I won't go.

I think the biggest thing is really that I don't earn enough money to wear the kinds of things that are appropriate and that I would feel comfortable wearing. Cheaper stuff strikes me (perhaps unfairly) as often being kinda 'tacky' and the conservative well cut stuff that I like (and that would be appropriate) is well out of my price range. So for now... Cocktail parties and the like are best avoided...

The male graduate students tend to wear jeans and t-shirts and hoodies. So... That is what I wear. Because I am a 'graduate student' first and foremost. My gender identity / sexuality is something that I consider to be a private matter for me and for my partner - and not something that is for public consumption (that is the way I see that). You can get jeans that are cut for girls... You can get t-shirts that are cut / tailored for girls (and I'm not talking about the jeans where you are meant to show off your g-string or t-shirts that show off your stomach). So... That is what I do...

If you wear things that show cleavage then that is of course acceptable in our culture. But if you notice guys staring at your cleavage when you are speaking - then don't wonder why. I guess that is my thing. If you want people to listen to what you have to say then what you have to say needs to be striking and original and interesting... But if people are too busy staring (as a matter of first impression) then there simply ain't enough attention to go around...

Sigh. Sunrise... Dare I say that this has only become an issue for me since I started meeting graduate students in the history department?????

(English lit might be the other main culpret)

;-)

Not that you are necessarily the one to do this, but perhaps society needs to change so that women can wear feminine clothing and not have it detract from their mind or personality.

Well... The thing is that I'm not sure that this is a matter of gender stereotypes / sexism so much as it is a matter of 'if you want to be treated as a person then you need to present yourself as a person'.

If a guy really swaggered and played with his biceps and / or wore clothes that drew attention to masculine characteristics then I think that he would similarly find that people (on first impressions) didn't take what he had to say so seriously (the people who I associate with at any rate).

And that isn't to say that guys can't exhibit a sense of taste and / or personal style. (It is interesting to me that with human beings women have become the 'flashy' gender. In the majority of the rest of the animal world the males are flashy in order to court the females - consider the peacocks tail. How did that get to be reversed in human society (assuming that humans used to be like that too)? And how is that to the interests of the females (as opposed to the males)??.

I'm not sure how much it is about one needing to campaign to change gender stereotypes so much as it is about limitations on the attention capacity of human beings. When attention is limited (as it is) and people are tired (as they get) then where does their attention naturally wander? If you show cleavage then don't be terribly surprised if people stare at your boobs. Hell, I find myself staring at womens boobs - not because I'm into boobs, but because what they are wearing is designed to get your attention to wander. Why show your cleavage if you don't want people looking at it? But when people are attending to that don't be surprised that they aren't listening to what you are saying terribly well...